View Full Version : Manual Steering
LuckyWinner
03-27-2011, 07:08 AM
How many of you are running manual steering and like it??? :confused:
Cobra Ray
03-27-2011, 07:16 AM
Many owners are running with manual steering.
I am using a Flaming River quick ratio steering rack and its quite user friendly. These light cars are quite easy to maneuver.
That said, more folks are going with power steering. Maybe due to the aging population?:D
Ray
Mike N
03-27-2011, 09:13 AM
I used the de-powered Ford power steering rack when I first built the car and it takes a lot of grunt to maneuver the car at low speeds. I swapped the quick ratio (15:1) Flaming River rack in after about a year and what a difference, it's so much better. If you want even easier effort Flaming River has an 18:1 rack also which is about as close to power steering as you will get without actually going power.
Someday I Suppose
03-27-2011, 09:21 AM
I think you always need to be clear manual as in a dedicated manual rack like the flaming river or a de-tuned rack donor style. The donor rack is less common now with the complete kit, but I THINK it lead to a lot of the bad press manual racks got in these cars. Seems to me a lot of guys have the flaming river racks and are happy. Though I think it also depends what you want to do with the car. A back woods cruiser is my plan and I went flaming river. If your planning to drive 100,000 miles or auto x then a power rack might make more sense.
_Scott
LuckyWinner
03-27-2011, 09:29 AM
how does the ffr rack that comes with the full kit compare to the flaming river rack?
3kcarbon
03-27-2011, 09:48 AM
I have the rack you will get in you kit on my car. I also have the largest tires FFR says will fit on 17X9 wheels. Steering effort is easy, no problem at all. The problem was people using de powered donor racks gave manual steering a bad reputation. After looking into power steering and the whole issue I'm glad I didn't go with power. I wanted the car to be a basic no frills badboy and manual steering fits that nicely.
AC Bill
03-27-2011, 10:51 AM
I really enjoy the feel and the response my FR 15-1 ratio rack offers. Lot less hassle than plumbing a PS rack, pump, pulley, etc.
As mentioned the cars are so light it is not a work out, like your grandpa's old pick up truck.;)
rich grsc
03-27-2011, 11:22 AM
On my 1st car had a de-powered rack, worst thing you can do. Next build went with the FFr manual rack, much better but still never again. If your building now, why hesitate to add power steering? It isnt complicated!
efnfast
03-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Flaming River manual rack from Breeze here - fit perfectly, performs perfectly. I've had 0 thoughts about changing it.
why hesitate to add power steering?
leaky leaky :)
Jeff Kleiner
03-27-2011, 01:30 PM
leaky leaky
Not if you do it correctly :p
Lucky, I've seen you mention plans to do track time and autocross. IMO that makes PS a necessity.
Jeff
NicksPapaw
03-27-2011, 02:22 PM
I have the manual rack provided by FFR. Couldn't be happier. With that being said, if you do plan on tracking the car or especially doing auto-X, you might want to consider the power option. I just terrorize the neighbors, so, no need for power steering! :)
My manual rack came from another member so I don't know the manufacturer but if you are going do a true manual rack. If you anticipate any track time seriously consider P/S. I didn't and wished I had but in everyday driving the manual rack is fine. It's not to the point I would consider a retro fit but if was building again I would put in PS.
patpur
03-27-2011, 02:43 PM
I have the Flaming River Manual in mine and I have no problem with it at all. It's responsive,quick. It ain't our Mercedes but it serves my purpose. NicksPapaw I also like to terrorize my neighbors. After many early mornings of be woken up by slamming car doors I now have something to wake them up too!
Bill_VA
03-27-2011, 09:08 PM
I had the Flaming River rack from FFR for 2 years and thought that for the most part it was fine. Effort above 15 mph was fine, feedback was good too. Although, steering effort below 15 mph in parking lots and driveways was a bit tough (insert comments about how wimpy I am here). I bit the bullet and converted to PS and am soooo glad I did. Effort at all speeds is just right and feedback is still the same, IMO. You'll not hear many guys who made the swap say they didn't think it wasn't worth it. Just food for thought.
3kcarbon
03-27-2011, 10:30 PM
I must admit simplicity was part of the formula in my desire for a 60's replica. No computers, tons of sensors or rubber duck bumpers. I wasn't looking for a exact replica just a replica in style and spirit of the times. PS and PB are nice but it didn't fit my plans.
Pierre B
03-28-2011, 09:30 AM
I agree with 3K above regarding simplicity. I completed my MKII in 2007, equipped with the FFR manual steering rack. I do have EFI on my rebuilt 1989 302, but the engine package is as light as can be. Now at age 68, I have no problems with unassisted steering at any speed, including parking. I long ago learned that any steering input is best done with the car rolling, even if only a small amount. I elected manual steering for two main reasons, the first of which is stated at the head of my post. Secondly, I wanted direct feedback in the steering: something I couldn't possibly count on with power steering. I probably would not have considered building this car without first having spent 30+ years (and 270,000 miles) on motorcycles. My FFR is basically a 4-wheeled motorcycle and I have no need or desire for power steering. Earlier in my career, 15 years experience with a similarly equipped 1,800 pound Lotus Europa taught me the same lesson. My FFR is the Lotus on steroids!
Ole Rusty
03-28-2011, 04:12 PM
For those who did go with PS, which one did you go with?
CapeCoralCobra
03-28-2011, 05:59 PM
I have the manual rack provided by FFR. Couldn't be happier. With that being said, if you do plan on tracking the car or especially doing auto-X, you might want to consider the power option. I just terrorize the neighbors, so, no need for power steering! :)
Same here, no plans to change.
NicksPapaw
03-28-2011, 07:47 PM
One other thing to think about. While I don't have power steering, I DO have power brakes! I started with manual brakes, but realized that this is the quickest car I have ever had and I wanted more than my Greek God Inspired Legs :) to stop this beast. Went with the Whitby's vac assist kit and WOW, what a difference! I know this will bring both sides into the fray and some love manual brakes. I would NEVER drive my car without power brakes. Just giving you more stuff to consider.
Darren
03-28-2011, 09:04 PM
I have the FFR manual rack. Steers nice and easy... really didn't notice any real effort to steer at all, really like it so far but I'm still gokarting around.
MHCobra
03-29-2011, 12:39 PM
I had the Flaming River rack from FFR for 2 years and thought that for the most part it was fine. Effort above 15 mph was fine, feedback was good too. Although, steering effort below 15 mph in parking lots and driveways was a bit tough (insert comments about how wimpy I am here). I bit the bullet and converted to PS and am soooo glad I did. Effort at all speeds is just right and feedback is still the same, IMO. You'll not hear many guys who made the swap say they didn't think it wasn't worth it. Just food for thought.
X2- 3500 miles with manual & now 5500 with power - I love power steering!
peter paton
03-29-2011, 01:44 PM
I have the 18:1 rack from Forte's in my MK3.1. Only at the go cart stage but it feels good so far. Little effort at a standstill and nice feel while moving. So far, I have not been at much of a speed and the alignment is by guess, but it does have nice feel.
Peter
OttawaFFRer
03-29-2011, 01:56 PM
When you guys refer to a de-powered rack, are you opening the rack and removing the seals or are you just closing the fluid fittings?
I have the FFR manual rack. Steers nice and easy... really didn't notice any real effort to steer at all, really like it so far but I'm still gokarting around.
I have the 18:1 rack from Forte's in my MK3.1. Only at the go cart stage but it feels good so far. Little effort at a standstill and nice feel while moving. So far, I have not been at much of a speed and the alignment is by guess, but it does have nice feel.
Peter
I really don't think you go-cart guys have a good point of reference to put out there. The manual rack takes effort to turn the wheel while sitting still in parking lots, or while moving very slowly. Just this past week at the Texas Cobra Club Spring Meet I laughed at one guy that was trying to line his car up to go up a ramp and into his trailer. His head was bobbing up and down as he was trying to get the steering wheel turned while sitting still. Just an estimate, but I would guess a manual rack requires 10-15 lbs. of force to turn the steering wheel on an asphalt parking lot with 10" front tires while sitting still.
I used the manual rack for the past 14,000 miles and will hopefully be converting to power steering soon. Ford, Chevy, etc.. converted to power for a reason.. think about it!
3kcarbon
03-29-2011, 04:04 PM
The de powered reference is to use a donor rack and leave off the PS pump and hoses. Everybody thinks thats a bad idea now.
OttawaFFRer
03-29-2011, 11:57 PM
I've read if you open up a "depowered" rack and remove the seals it will flow smooth like a manual rack...but I'm a rookie.
a stock power rack from a fox is 13:1 yes/no?
Just getting my info straight for when I get my car in a few weeks and start building the wiki here!
I have the rack from an 87 SVO mustang, 18:1. Just finally got it aligned, have the SAI mod and Levy Bumpsteer kit. Car is easy to steer both on the road and in the parking lot now. No need for power steering here but I don't plan to autocross, just road and drag racing.
efnfast
03-30-2011, 12:38 PM
I have the rack from an 87 SVO mustang, 18:1. Just finally got it aligned, have the SAI mod and Levy Bumpsteer kit. Car is easy to steer both on the road and in the parking lot now. No need for power steering here but I don't plan to autocross, just road and drag racing.
You're supposed to be copying me .... I have a FR rack ... remove that SVO rack and replace it with a flaming river unit :p
3kcarbon
03-30-2011, 04:01 PM
These aren't 6000lb SUV's and for the most part aren't driven by soccer mom's talking on the cell phone while changing a diaper and putting on makeup. Thats what GM and Ford designed power steering for. I actually had a woman following me once driving a Nissan with a manual tranny and she was eating and drinking, smoking and changing gears while talking on a hand held cell phone. I almost wrecked watching the show.
LuckyWinner
03-30-2011, 11:59 PM
Im going manual, might change later if its a problem, but I dont think its going to be. I have to stay in shape being in the military and if I cant handle turning the wheel in a Roadster then I have a problem. The more I watch video and read these post Im going to be spending more time on Road Racing than AutoX and thats just going to be 10% of my driving. I want to feel the road and have a bare bones street legal race car. This thread has helped out alot and I thank you. But dont stop posting, its like a Miller Lite commercial "LESS FILLING,....TASTE GREAT" I have found that there is two types of drivers here and both defend their idea about steering with a passion.
3kcarbon
03-31-2011, 07:02 AM
GooD move. Bravo!
I figured since you were a military guy a more real deal true to its nature build would be in order. I went with what FFR supplies and the car is only in go cart stage and the first time I drove it I thought, this is easy to steer what do people expect? Think about it if FFR thought PS was needed it would be a FFR option. I had a discussion with a well known professional FFR builder and we both have come to the same conclusion. People have gotten so used to their fluff and frills on the grocery getter Toyota and Honda's they think something is wrong with anything that isn't the same. Thats the point. I'm building a FFR for the simplicity and genuine nature of a real bad boy car. Bring it on!
AC Bill
03-31-2011, 10:51 AM
3K, well put..lol
Some of the younger builders especailly, may never have driven a car without power steering, so non-power could seem rather brutish..:)
Heck at one time people had to hand crank their engines to start them. :p
3kcarbon
03-31-2011, 11:59 AM
Right on AC Bill!
Now that FFR has Rice on the menu the younger crowd will be showing up to play Ricer Racer. I'm the first to admit I'm a bit stuck in the past and thats part of the allure of the car. Ricer's are of a different age and time and anything goes.
I have a Flamming River 18:1 manual rack. With 4,000 miles under the wheels, it works and feels fine for how I use the car. If I were to get serious about autoX I would want power steering. While I am very happy with my set up, had I understood how a Heidts valve works, I would have gone with PS and a Heidts valve. These are essentially race cars and as such the handling should, in my opinion, be as good and as adjustable as possible.
Arch
DougR
03-31-2011, 11:39 PM
I really like my manual set-up. I have a 15:1 rack from FFR, Borden/Whitby SAI kit (on a MK3, not needed on MK4 w/FFR spindles)and 275/40R17 tires. The big thing is not to over do the caster. More caster is nice at high speeds but makes for tougher steering in the parking lots.
Jeff Kleiner
04-01-2011, 09:18 AM
People have gotten so used to their fluff and frills on the grocery getter...
That explains why the Challenge series guys use PS I guess. None of 'em could drive a "real bad boy car". I mean really, power steering makes it easy enough that even a GIRL can run in the series! :p
Face it, we'll never get a consensus 'cause everybody has different needs, desires and planned uses for their car so there isn't any hard and fast right or wrong answer.
Jeff
Rick lacourse
04-01-2011, 10:46 AM
hi
i have factory fives manual rack ,with over around 40k miles with no issues , ive driven both ps cars and manual aftermarket rack cars , and i would not bother with the p/s , i auto cross my car every now and then with no issues ,i also believe like others in simple is better , i like the vintage feel , but thats just what i like ,
rick
3kcarbon
04-01-2011, 12:31 PM
That explains why the Challenge series guys use PS I guess. None of 'em could drive a "real bad boy car". I mean really, power steering makes it easy enough that even a GIRL can run in the series! :p
Face it, we'll never get a consensus 'cause everybody has different needs, desires and planned uses for their car so there isn't any hard and fast right or wrong answer.
Jeff
The Grand Poobah of Fan Relays has spoken and once again he speaks the truth. A manual (not power assisted) salute to the Grand Poobah!
Ever notice the first 3 letters in manual? Yea, thats right... :)
If you don't put in power steering, I hope you at least put in a cup holder. You'll figure out why soon enough! :)
sierrabc
04-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Hi, I`m also considering a power steering rack for a MK4 build has anyone used the FLAMING RIVER POWER STEERING RACK FR40002?
Someday I Suppose
04-14-2011, 12:02 PM
Doug hits on an important part of the conversation here, the SAI kit or MKIV with FFR Spindles reduces steering effort and or run more caster. I think some guys are running around 5 - 6 degrees caster with a manual rack and SAI mod where without it you would only run say 3 - 3.5
-Scott
I really like my manual set-up. I have a 15:1 rack from FFR, Borden/Whitby SAI kit (on a MK3, not needed on MK4 w/FFR spindles)and 275/40R17 tires. The big thing is not to over do the caster. More caster is nice at high speeds but makes for tougher steering in the parking lots.
I'm still in the deer-in-the-headlights stage of planning a build, but the steering question is one I want to answer good and early. One question I have for the manual steering crowd is... are any of you using the smaller radius steering wheel? I have had issues in other cars where the larger steering wheel itself made getting in and out of the car annoying... I had to consciously slide my right leg down and under the wheel.
Would I be right to assume that if I wanted the smaller diameter steering wheel, for ergonomic reasons, that power steering makes more sense? (Anyone in the Sacramento area have a car I could sit it to try?)