What are you swapping in?

[bu11dogg2]

Motor:
JDM STi Version 8 motor
HTA68 Forced Performance Turbo
DW 750cc injectors
Wallbro 255lph fuel pump
Grimmspeed EBCS
KS Tech Intake
GT Spec Headers and UP
Cobb DP with High Flow Cat
Forge BPV
Samco Silicone recirculation valve hose
Samco Silicone Coolant and Vacuum hoses
Samco Silicone Turbo Inlet Hose
Open Source tuned EFI Logics 319/278 whp

Transmission:

PPG'd 5 Speed

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

Cobb DP with High Flow Cat

Do we know that such a down-pipe will fit? I was under the impression that a custom solution was in order due to the length. Granted, a stock down-pipe is only as long as the transmission...

[bu11dogg2]

no idea....

The cat is mounted high on the COBB DP so I'm hoping I can cut the DP short, weld a flange on, mount it to the 818 cat back and call it a day.

I have a million questions.... I'm sure as time goes they will be answered.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

I haven't decided what I'm going to install, but I'm leaning heavily towards a rebuilt STi engine. STi motors with spun bearings can be found for around $400 and a brand new OEM STi block is only $1800.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

The cat is mounted high on the COBB DP so I'm hoping I can cut the DP short, weld a flange on, mount it to the 818 cat back and call it a day.
The cat on a Cobb DP is at the aft end. Here's mine next to one off of a 2007 STi:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/3622810649_0bde282e43_z.jpg

[bu11dogg2]

I haven't decided what I'm going to install, but I'm leaning heavily towards a rebuilt STi engine. STi motors with spun bearings can be found for around $400 and a brand new OEM STi block is only $1800.

If you're gonna go with a new Short Block I'd get a built one. They can be had for $2500-$3000 from import image racing. Alternatively you get a 257 block that is bare for $1200 and drop in forged pistons.

If you do buy a ej257 sb new, get a 2010+ so you get the nitrated crank.


The cat on a Cobb DP is at the aft end. Here's mine next to one off of a 2007 STi:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/3622810649_0bde282e43_z.jpg

yes, I would be removing the cat for this car. I should have been more specific.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

If you're gonna go with a new Short Block I'd get a built one... Alternatively you get a 257 block that is bare for $1200 and drop in forged pistons.
I've thought about both options. I was going to go for a Raw 1 built block before the owner went on the lam or some such thing. With so many different built block options out there, I'm not sure what to go for.

An MPS 2.34L is very appealing, but at $5K+ it's much more than I care to spend on just the short block.

[bu11dogg2]

5k is a lot coin!

[keys2heaven]

So far, I have:

Engine:
2004 EJ20 Block (honed, decked, measured, cleaned)
OEM EJ257 Crankshaft (crylic dipped)
Mahle 2.2L Forged Stroker Pistons
Eagle H-Beam Forged Connecting Rods
ACL Main Bearings
Klevite 77 Series Rod Bearings
Subaru Undersized Bearing Kit (2nd and 4th main journals)
Both EJ20 Cylinder Heads (LH-RH)

Transmission:
2004? Impreza 5MT (non-Turbo) with center diff removed and locking spool installed.
ID: TY754VC7AA-TY

[bu11dogg2]

So far, I have:

Engine:
2004 EJ20 Block (honed, decked, measured, cleaned)
OEM EJ257 Crankshaft (crylic dipped)
Mahle 2.2L Forged Stroker Pistons
Eagle H-Beam Forged Connecting Rods
ACL Main Bearings
Klevite 77 Series Rod Bearings
Subaru Undersized Bearing Kit (2nd and 4th main journals)
Both EJ20 Cylinder Heads (LH-RH)

Transmission:
2004? Impreza 5MT (non-Turbo) with center diff removed and locking spool installed.
ID: TY754VC7AA-TY

what turbo?

Also, why no head work? A simple valve kit and you'll be able see 8k rpms!

[keys2heaven]

what turbo?

Also, why no head work? A simple valve kit and you'll be able see 8k rpms!

Oh, will be doing work on heads. Have not decided on which turbo yet.

[armstrom]

If I go for this kit (price is right, but it depends on what the final look is) I will probably stick with a bone stock WRX engine/tranny. I mean, think about it... 220HP in a ~1800lb car... It'll be a screamer without sinking thousands into a built engine. Yes, 400hp would be faster... assuming you could put it on the ground. Slicks on a road course or drag strip no contest. But driving around on the street on street tires? I'm not so sure. Forget it if starts raining and the roads get slick.

And with a stock setup you can still satisfy your need for more power by using basic "bolt-ons" (intake, boost controller, ECU tune, etc...) I'm no expect on wrx tuning but I have to believe 260-280 at the crank should be doable with affordable parts.

just my $0.02 though. I like Colin Chapman's recipe for speed: "Simplify, then add lightness."

-Matt

[crobin4]

If I go for this kit (price is right, but it depends on what the final look is) I will probably stick with a bone stock WRX engine/tranny. I mean, think about it... 220HP in a ~1800lb car... It'll be a screamer without sinking thousands into a built engine. Yes, 400hp would be faster... assuming you could put it on the ground. Slicks on a road course or drag strip no contest. But driving around on the street on street tires? I'm not so sure. Forget it if starts raining and the roads get slick.

And with a stock setup you can still satisfy your need for more power by using basic "bolt-ons" (intake, boost controller, ECU tune, etc...) I'm no expect on wrx tuning but I have to believe 260-280 at the crank should be doable with affordable parts.

just my $0.02 though. I like Colin Chapman's recipe for speed: "Simplify, then add lightness."

-Matt

I agree 100%. And if I wasn't planning on racing mine, that's exactly what I'd be doing. 260-300HP is more than enough for the street in this chassis.

[bu11dogg2]

The stock set up with a STG2 tune mounted in the 818 still doesn't equal the horsepower to weight ratio of my daily driver :(

It would however make an incredible track car!

[crobin4]

Engine:
2.0L block
USDM Sti Crank
USDM STi Rods
Custom 10.5-1 Forged Pistons
ACL Main and Rod Bearings
Dynamic Balance
2.0L Heads / very mild portwork
USDM Sti Cams
STi Intake and Exhaust Valves
Swain Tech coating on: Pistons, Combustion Chambers, and Valves
Lightweight Flywheel
Lightweight and underdrive pulleys
TGV Deletes
Cobb short ram intake
Modified, Ceramic Coated, and Wrapped GPMoto one-piece header and uppipe
IHI VF36 Twinscroll Turbo
AVO Divorced Wastegate Turbine Outlet Housing (ceramic coated and blanketed)
Moroso oil pan
Cosworth Oil Baffle
12mm Oil Pump
High Rev Valve Springs
Water to air intercooler w/ 10"x9"x4.5" core and 2 12"x12"x1" radiators
Water Injection


Tranny:

PPG JDM STi Gearset
KAAZ 1.5 way LSD

[bu11dogg2]

^^^great build!

[crobin4]

^^^great build!

Thanks, It's the "budget" and lower power (about 100HP less) of what I trying to put together for an AWD Auto-X car.
Heck, with the 818 and this engine as a complete car I'll have less in it,than in parts alone in the other build.

[bbjones121]

Just go stage 3e on stock and you would probably never have any problems unless you push it often as your daily driver. Even as a daily driver, I have close to 30k in my 3e legacy GT. A 1800lb car would probably be a lot easier on the engine than a 3,000+ wrx or lgt. I plan on having three 2.5 engines, one in my daily driver, one in the FFR car, and one being rebuilt. Or maybe just two (one in daily driver and one in FFR) and rebuild them whenever one might need it (probably not needed very often).

[crobin4]

Just go stage 3e on stock and you would probably never have any problems unless you push it often as your daily driver. Even as a daily driver, I have close to 30k in my 3e legacy GT. A 1800lb car would probably be a lot easier on the engine than a 3,000+ wrx or lgt. I plan on having three 2.5 engines, one in my daily driver, one in the FFR car, and one being rebuilt. Or maybe just two (one in daily driver and one in FFR) and rebuild them whenever one might need it (probably not needed very often).

Huh, WHat? Does not compute. Does not compute. core meltdown imminent....

Sorry, since I'm from WV, English is a second language.
Could you take another crack at that, please?
I'm a bit slow.

[bbjones121]

Stage 3 on e-85. Sry.



Huh, WHat? Does not compute. Does not compute. core meltdown imminent....

Sorry, since I'm from WV, English is a second language.
Could you take another crack at that, please?
I'm a bit slow.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

I'm looking for a project until the 818 is actually released and have decided to build and engine. My goal is a high revving engine with power across the band - I have turbo lag. I'm really at a loss as to whether I should rebuild one, start from scratch, etc. Maybe I'll take it to the highest level:

2.0L or 2.5L base? I like the idea of high revs, but there's no replacement for displacement. I'm considering either an EJ20 with a ~2.2L stroker kit or an EJ25 destroked to ~2.35L. By all accounts, the latter should rev better, but there's just not a lot of destroked EJ25 engines out there. On the other hand, there are tons of stroked EJ20s. I could just go for an EJ25 block with forged internals and call it a day.

As for new versus rebuilt: it will cost as much to bore and hone an EJ as it costs to buy a new EJ25 block. I haven't looked to see if new EJ20 blocks are readily available.

Thoughts?

[crobin4]

I'm looking for a project until the 818 is actually released and have decided to build and engine. My goal is a high revving engine with power across the band - I have turbo lag. I'm really at a loss as to whether I should rebuild one, start from scratch, etc. Maybe I'll take it to the highest level:

2.0L or 2.5L base? I like the idea of high revs, but there's no replacement for displacement. I'm considering either an EJ20 with a ~2.2L stroker kit or an EJ25 destroked to ~2.35L. By all accounts, the latter should rev better, but there's just not a lot of destroked EJ25 engines out there. On the other hand, there are tons of stroked EJ20s. I could just go for an EJ25 block with forged internals and call it a day.

As for new versus rebuilt: it will cost as much to bore and hone an EJ as it costs to buy a new EJ25 block. I haven't looked to see if new EJ20 blocks are readily available.

Thoughts?

See my build above, will rev to 8500rpm with plenty of safe margin. Low boost threshold, Wide torque/power band.
Just adjust your compression to suit your fuel.

[PhyrraM]

Hmmm? What am installing in my 818?....

No idea at this moment. I do have a stock '02 WRX I bought new, but considering my parts stash I think I'd be wise to not tear it down.

The first question I always ask is not about the motor itself, but about how to run it. In that regard I have:

1) a complete '05 Legacy GT harness, including the ECU, steering column and immobilizer key, fuse boxes, and the engine harness. This will do the entire vehicle if needed.
OR
2) a complete '93 JDM WRX wagon harness, including motor harness and a discontinued EJ20G Apexi Power FC aftermarket plug-n-play ECU. This will also do the whole car also, including fuseboxes.

So, my likely motor will be an early Legacy EJ22t closed deck block with non-STI EJ20K heads and early WRX EJ20G intake manifold using the early TD05 turbo with the 90 degree inlet. Because I have it all sitting on the shelf. This will be run with harness option #2 above.

In the off chance I get some cash, I may choose a fairly stock single AVCS EJ257/255 and run it with harness #1.

[crobin4]

Hmmm? What am installing in my 818?....

No idea at this moment. I do have a stock '02 WRX I bought new, but considering my parts stash I think I'd be wise to not tear it down.

The first question I always ask is not about the motor itself, but about how to run it. In that regard I have:

1) a complete '05 Legacy GT harness, including the ECU, steering column and immobilizer key, fuse boxes, and the engine harness. This will do the entire vehicle if needed.
OR
2) a complete '93 JDM WRX wagon harness, including motor harness and a discontinued EJ20G Apexi Power FC aftermarket plug-n-play ECU. This will also do the whole car also, including fuseboxes.

So, my likely motor will be an early Legacy EJ22t closed deck block with non-STI EJ20K heads and early WRX EJ20G intake manifold using the early TD05 turbo with the 90 degree inlet. Because I have it all sitting on the shelf. This will be run with harness option #2 above.

In the off chance I get some cash, I may choose a fairly stock single AVCS EJ257/255 and run it with harness #1.

If that Apexi ECU is what I think it is, I'd run option #2, with the EJ22T block. IMHO

[PhyrraM]

The Power FC is a programable ECU, it's a generation or two behind the newest ones on the market. It doesn't do active knock correction so a conservative tune is reccommended. However, it does just fine and I am already setup with the cables, software, laptop and Apexi's cool display device called the Commander. It is also 100% plug and play with the early WRXs, no wiring at all, uses the stock sensors and actuators.

I figure the combo I can put together will only need custom pistons to tailor the compression ratio to my needs. Everything else (ECU aside) can be a stock (read:cheap) component. ~300 crank horsepower is my estimate.

[crobin4]

The Power FC is a programable ECU, it's a generation or two behind the newest ones on the market. It doesn't do active knock correction so a conservative tune is reccommended. However, it does just fine and I am already setup with the cables, software, laptop and Apexi's cool display device called the Commander. It is also 100% plug and play with the early WRXs, no wiring at all, uses the stock sensors and actuators.

I figure the combo I can put together will only need custom pistons to tailor the compression ratio to my needs. Everything else (ECU aside) can be a stock (read:cheap) component. ~300 crank horsepower is my estimate.

That's what I thought it was. Sounds like your all set.
I would think about switching to water to air intercooler, esp. in your case, if plan on running 91-93 octane, it should give more and more reliable knock protection. Lots of thermal mass there and not to much weight relative to the benefits.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

See my build above, will rev to 8500rpm with plenty of safe margin. Low boost threshold, Wide torque/power band.
Just adjust your compression to suit your fuel.
I like it. A few questions:

With the EJ20 block and USDM STi crank and rods, what displacement to you end up with? Where do you get the pistons?

[crobin4]

I like it. A few questions:

With the EJ20 block and USDM STi crank and rods, what displacement to you end up with? Where do you get the pistons?

2146.5cc with a 1mm overbore. If you don't require or want high compression, Mahle has a forged off the shelf piston for that very swap. If you require more than 8.5-1, you'll need have someone make them. Right now, Wiseco gets my pennies for mine.

[crobin4]

I want to make something clear to those who may not know.
Getting the Subie engines to rev to the 8500-10000 rpm is not just a matter of putting high rev springs on. They are certainly required, but the important things are Static and Dynamic Balance of the reciprocating assy. to +-1 gram or better and lightweight pistons.
Of coarse, making big power up there is an entirely different thing and not part of my goal.

[PhyrraM]

One of the nice things about the Subaru (or any H motor with a flat-plane crank) is that once the crank, flywheel and pulley are balanced the rest usually falls in line. Every piston has an opposite. So as long as your rods/pistons/rings/pins/etc all weight the same, your ballance is still good. It's always good to check, but I've never seen one need adjustment if the rest specs out.

[crobin4]

One of the nice things about the Subaru (or any H motor with a flat-plane crank) is that once the crank, flywheel and pulley are balanced the rest usually falls in line. Every piston has an opposite. So as long as your rods/pistons/rings/pins/etc all weight the same, your ballance is still good. It's always good to check, but I've never seen one need adjustment if the rest specs out.

Yeh, and i love the fact that that also gives them opportunity to rev smoothly and operate without a harmonic balancer and umpteen counter rotating shafts to dampen crank harmonics. It's baked into the bread with boxer motors.

[readymix]

Just found out about this today. Had plans in the past to go the GTM route. But as a Subaru owner, I can't pass this up.

I would simply drop in what I currently have in my Impreza, then sell the Impreza shell and any unused parts to the local Subaru clubs...

EJ257 shortblock
Mahle pistons std. bore
EJ20 WRX heads (2004)
Crower 272 cams
Helix titanium dual valvesprings and retainers
Supertech Stainless valves
Lots of Blah blah blah fuel delivery and plumbing parts that I fabbed for the build
Rotated mount Garrett GT35R/.82AR
PPG 1-4 straight cut synchrobox.

Along with a plethora of happy fun-time go fast parts.

Also, any design for this kit that uses stock Subaru sized wheels/tires combinations would be great, as I'd love to keep using the 18x8 Work VS-XX wheels I've got on there now. :crosses fingers:

[crobin4]

Just found out about this today. Had plans in the past to go the GTM route. But as a Subaru owner, I can't pass this up.

I would simply drop in what I currently have in my Impreza, then sell the Impreza shell and any unused parts to the local Subaru clubs...

EJ257 shortblock
Mahle pistons std. bore
EJ20 WRX heads (2004)
Crower 272 cams
Helix titanium dual valvesprings and retainers
Supertech Stainless valves
Lots of Blah blah blah fuel delivery and plumbing parts that I fabbed for the build
Rotated mount Garrett GT35R/.82AR
PPG 1-4 straight cut synchrobox.

Along with a plethora of happy fun-time go fast parts.

Also, any design for this kit that uses stock Subaru sized wheels/tires combinations would be great, as I'd love to keep using the 18x8 Work VS-XX wheels I've got on there now. :crosses fingers:

Like the setup, should make plenty of power. I'd ditch the GT35r and "downgrade" to GT2871r or GT28rs. IMHO.

[readymix]

Like the setup, should make plenty of power. I'd ditch the GT35r and "downgrade" to GT2871r or GT28rs. IMHO.

I would, but I'm already running that setup. The tune needs some work due to the low impedence injectors not playing well with the UTEC. The remedy of course is swapping out the LI injectors for more standard fare.
A conservative pump gas tune should net power in the upper 300 range without any issues. With the current fueling issues, I'm stuck with a 5750 rpm redline. The setup still made 350hp and 325wtq under 6000rpms on the local Mustangdyne using 92octane.
I have a GT2871 lying around, but that's for a Datsun Fairlady Roadster SR20det swap project I'm currently tinkering with. And I really like the power delivery of the GT35R with the 2.5L and 272cams. It isn't nearly as punchy as I was expecting.
Essentially, for a mostly freeway use EJ powered mid engined roadster, I'd prefer more open powerband horsepower over a more torque heavy setup. If I was playing around on the track with it, I'd probably be more inclined to a more torquey power delivery, but with Minnesota roads the way they are for the first couple months after thaw, the last thing I'd want is a heavy right foot leading to torque based oversteer on the local roads.

[Cooluser23]

If possible: Bone stock Subaru STi drivetrain from a rollover STi. (to keep the cost down, (within the $15k total build cost) I like a 6speed and for starters I'll be happy with the car as is.

If that doesn't fit the budget, I'll use a bone stock Subaru WRX drivetrain from a rollover.

When I want more power I can always tear the car apart later. - I just don't want to end up like so many builders, who never finished their kit because they ran out of money, time, or enthusiasm halfway through the build. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. :D

[bbjones121]

If possible: Bone stock Subaru STi drivetrain from a rollover STi. (to keep the cost down, (within the $15k total build cost) I like a 6speed and for starters I'll be happy with the car as is.

If that doesn't fit the budget, I'll use a bone stock Subaru WRX drivetrain from a rollover.

When I want more power I can always tear the car apart later. - I just don't want to end up like so many builders, who never finished their kit because they ran out of money, time, or enthusiasm halfway through the build. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. :D

I agree. I will go the same route. Get it done cheap and quick so that you have something to show for your energy, money, and time. Upgrade later. Work on all the tidbits after it can drive, so that when you get tired or lose motivation, you have something to go cheer you up.

[PhyrraM]

..... Get it done cheap and quick so that you have something to show for your energy, money, and time. Upgrade later. Work on all the tidbits after it can drive, so that when you get tired or lose motivation, you have something to go cheer you up.

Quoted for truth.

It takes an exception person to do a full custom, multi-year build and not lose motivation.

[readymix]

If possible: Bone stock Subaru STi drivetrain from a rollover STi. (to keep the cost down, (within the $15k total build cost) I like a 6speed and for starters I'll be happy with the car as is.

If that doesn't fit the budget, I'll use a bone stock Subaru WRX drivetrain from a rollover.

When I want more power I can always tear the car apart later. - I just don't want to end up like so many builders, who never finished their kit because they ran out of money, time, or enthusiasm halfway through the build. I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. :D

The 06-07 WRX used a 2.5L motor that in most respects is similar to the Stock STi motor. Stock STi turbos (VF39) can be found for dirty cheap prices, as can their intercoolers, fuel injectors and uppipes. Which, as far as horsepower output is concerned, is really all that separates the two. You could make the arguement that the STi AVCS heads will change the power delivery dynamic a bit, but with the same turbo, fuel injectors and intercooler, the differences would moot, and would likely be indistinguishable to the driver.
Not to mention, stock WRX turbos, injectors and intercoolers can be easily sold as people need to replace or return to stock all the time. You would be fine running an 06-07 WRX.

[bbjones121]

I mean, don't get me wrong. I will constantly bite off more than I can chew with this down the road on little things, I am a very very big perfectionist. I need to drive it around the block once in a while though.

[crobin4]

I would, but I'm already running that setup. The tune needs some work due to the low impedence injectors not playing well with the UTEC. The remedy of course is swapping out the LI injectors for more standard fare.
A conservative pump gas tune should net power in the upper 300 range without any issues. With the current fueling issues, I'm stuck with a 5750 rpm redline. The setup still made 350hp and 325wtq under 6000rpms on the local Mustangdyne using 92octane.
I have a GT2871 lying around, but that's for a Datsun Fairlady Roadster SR20det swap project I'm currently tinkering with. And I really like the power delivery of the GT35R with the 2.5L and 272cams. It isn't nearly as punchy as I was expecting.
Essentially, for a mostly freeway use EJ powered mid engined roadster, I'd prefer more open powerband horsepower over a more torque heavy setup. If I was playing around on the track with it, I'd probably be more inclined to a more torquey power delivery, but with Minnesota roads the way they are for the first couple months after thaw, the last thing I'd want is a heavy right foot leading to torque based oversteer on the local roads.

Yeh, thought about people perhaps wanting a slightly later power delivery after posting the reply. I like the low end torque, gotta be careful throttle modulation though.

[PhyrraM]

I strongly feel that dollar-for-dollar a 165HP (+minor upgrades) N/A 2.5liter car will be just as fun as a turbo based one. I will be building a turbo model, but @ 1800 pounds I think MANY folks will be pleasantly surprised how well balanced of a package a N/A one will be.

I also feel that building close to, or over 300HP, will start to have diminishing returns - in the fun department - on the street. That being said, I won't knock anyone for building what they want.

[Silvertop]

I strongly feel that dollar-for-dollar a 165HP (+minor upgrades) N/A 2.5liter car will be just as fun as a turbo based one. I will be building a turbo model, but @ 1800 pounds I think MANY folks will be pleasantly surprised how well balanced of a package a N/A one will be.

I also feel that building close to, or over 300HP, will start to have diminishing returns - in the fun department - on the street. That being said, I won't knock anyone for building what they want.

It's something to think about. The 818 with NA engine would in fact still be plenty fast -- just not scary fast --, and would show much more civilized behavior under ordinary driving conditions. The much broader torque band is also a definite plus. Could make for an all-around nicer car, especially for use as a streeter.

It would also open up a much larger pool of donor cars, and a significantly lower cost, since standard Imprezas become suitable.

I'm not sure which way I will jump when the time comes. The kid in me likes the idea of the high horsepower turbo, while my more practical side sees the virtue of NA power, and of spending less money (or buying newer) on the donor car. We shall see.

I think you are right, though. A lot of builders will opt for the non-turbo application -- and be the happier for it!

[bbjones121]

I strongly feel that dollar-for-dollar a 165HP (+minor upgrades) N/A 2.5liter car will be just as fun as a turbo based one. I will be building a turbo model, but @ 1800 pounds I think MANY folks will be pleasantly surprised how well balanced of a package a N/A one will be.

I also feel that building close to, or over 300HP, will start to have diminishing returns - in the fun department - on the street. That being said, I won't knock anyone for building what they want.

I tend to disagree. Go test drive an NA lotus elise for a day and let me know what you think. To match or exceed the thrill of my daily driver, it will need more than 270hp.

[Justen]

The frugal side of me would like to consider the n/a option because they are significantly less expensive, but if im building a toy, i'm going to have to side with bbjones on this one

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

these dream builds you guys are listing here with crazy internals, really have me scratching my head. why not just use a stock WRX motor to start with, and then decide if more power is needed.

you guys are going to be surprised how fast an 1800lb car is with only 250hp.

personally I don't want any higher than 350hp. a small, lightweight car with lots of power is going to be a handful to control. i would rather build a car with a balanced amount of performance.

I have an 06 STi engine in the garage, but it's missing the turbo, and headers. i'm considering getting a GT30R, and setting it up for 350whp. no need for anything bigger, I just want really good engine response, and fast spool.

[Olimk2]

For sure at a ratio of 400hp/ton, how many will need more? Unless you want to eat Veyron at breakfast...

[crobin4]

I'm going after Jeff Kiesel. Look him up.

[bbjones121]

... you want to eat Veyron at breakfast...
Yes please...well, I just want to know I could and be able to tell people that.

[Benji]

I'm wondering when someone is going to suggest a Northstar 4.6l V8 installation with the GM 40 transverse transaxle? It usually always is in these types of 'projects' :D

Given some of the weights, maybe only 100-120lbs heavier all in? I'm sure you could re-cope that weight elsewhere :P

[Gollum]

I'm wondering when someone is going to suggest a Northstar 4.6l V8 installation with the GM 40 transverse transaxle? It usually always is in these types of 'projects' :D

Given some of the weights, maybe only 100-120lbs heavier all in? I'm sure you could re-cope that weight elsewhere :P

And gain what? I'm having a hard time imagining putting down more power than the subie motor can dish out. Even with a VERY attainable 500hp you'll be wanting at least 275mm of tread out back to at least stay safe when you downshift on the freeway. I know there's almost always enough traction to put power down when you're going upper freeway speeds, but we're talking about a 1800 pound vehicle. To get comparable power/weight from other vehicles you'd need 1000+hp!!! When you think about that, even a 500hp 818 will be quite affordable! :-D

[Benji]

And gain what? I'm having a hard time imagining putting down more power than the subie motor can dish out. Even with a VERY attainable 500hp you'll be wanting at least 275mm of tread out back to at least stay safe when you downshift on the freeway. I know there's almost always enough traction to put power down when you're going upper freeway speeds, but we're talking about a 1800 pound vehicle. To get comparable power/weight from other vehicles you'd need 1000+hp!!! When you think about that, even a 500hp 818 will be quite affordable! :-D

I was mainly just getting in there before someone suggested it and it will be suggested! One for the V8 fans to be honest and whilst you'd have the complexity of trying to get it to fit, you gain simplicity for not having to deal with any turbo/intercooling/heat issues. Stock is around 300bhp? Wouldn't need to do anything more but for the insane people you could go further.

I'm from the UK where there is a distinct lack of V8's, I'm moving to the US in three months, I *WANT* a V8 but don't get me wrong, I have a lot of love for the EJ (personally I don't consider it a 'four banger' to be grouped with say the Honda engines)! It would just be nice to have a V8 in there as well and personally I want to see a EZ30/36R in there.... Which is significantly more realistic and the route I would personally want to take.

Keep it N/A, do a few mods, call it 300bhp and be done with it.

On another note, what are people's feelings about the EJ needing a dry sump? If it can pull high G turns then is this a concern? I wonder how the Murtaya guys are going to get on?

I highly doubt it but, are the oil pans interchangeable, even between the EJ and EG33?

[crobin4]

Yes high g turns are very much a concern. Dry Sumps are ideal for this application for form any of competition.

[Gollum]

From what I've heard the rally dry sump system isn't a very difficult install, but I have no clue what it would end up costing.

[forced4]

A simple "Stg2" 2.0L motor will be just fine. If you want more, drop in a bigger 16G turbo and injectors. 300 crank HP easy.

[Silvertop]

Here are a couple of questions for the Subie experts on this site (I don’t qualify):

Which is likely to be more fuel efficient (when driven gently) – a stock 2.0 225hp WRX turbo motor, or a moderately tweaked NA 2.5, say, with air intake upgrades, maybe a mild cam and some porting, and a conservative ECU Reflash, combined mods sufficient to get power output to 200-220 hp?

Another concern: It’s just about lead-pipe cinch that FFR will design or commission the design of a WRX exhaust system for the 818 application. I’m also wondering if they will do the same for NA engines (Which presumably would be differnent, given the lack of a turbocharger). Anybody have any thoughts on that?

[bbjones121]

Which is likely to be more fuel efficient (when driven gently) – a stock 2.0 225hp WRX turbo motor, or a moderately tweaked NA 2.5, say, with air intake upgrades, maybe a mild cam and some porting, and a conservative ECU Reflash, combined mods sufficient to get power output to 200-220 hp?

I would definitely think the turbo would get better mileage if driven below boost. If I keep the boost in my 450hp 2.5l slightly under under 0psi, I can get better mileage than a stock NA 2.5. A turbo is best of both worlds, high mileage if kept low in rpm(below major turbine spool) and power when you want it. I would think the 2.0 to be even better at mileage than the 2.5, just have to deal with more turbo lag.

I don't see how they could use the existing WRX exhaust, the WRX is front engine. In the turbo setup, I would think it would retain the unequal length headers, as these take up less space than running extra pipe to equal them out. You would need each bank to join before the turbo. I think it would rid this car of a very destinct exhaust note if you run equal length headers.

[Gollum]

FFR does a good job of supplying exhaust setups for multiple engines in their other kits, so I'd guess that the likelyhood of them offering exhaust for both turbo and NA is high.

And has bbjones said, turbo motors can be great for MPG, just keep your foot out of it and out of boost. This means don't stab the throttle when possible. Go easy on the throttle, and it'll reward you.

[PhyrraM]

For warrenty reason the stock WRX is pig rich, at least the 2.0s are. An otherwise stock engine with an off-the-shelf tune, meant for a stock motor, will see a large MPG improvement--likely better than a N/A 2.5.

Stock '02-'03 WRXs with NO mods but a proper tune go from 22-25mpg to 25-28mpg (as reported by owners, but no personal experience).

[bbjones121]

For warrenty reason the stock WRX is pig rich, at least the 2.0s are. An otherwise stock engine with an off-the-shelf tune, meant for a stock motor, will see a large MPG improvement--likely better than a N/A 2.5.

Stock '02-'03 WRXs with NO mods but a proper tune go from 22-25mpg to 25-28mpg (as reported by owners, but no personal experience).
I got close to 30mpg(29 average) on the highway in my 06 stock legacy gt 2.5l back when I was stage 2.

[PhyrraM]

I got close to 30mpg(29 average) on the highway in my 06 stock legacy gt 2.5l back when I was stage 2.

29 MPG when stock? or stage 2? Confused.


Power = efficiency as applied to time
MPG = efficiency as applied to distance

The goals are slightly different, but 90% of the work for each goal is the same. It's only @ WOT that you see the differences in approaching the goal.

For just cruising, a 'power' tune is basically no different than a 'economy' tune. It's about extracting the most energy from your fuel source.

Also, one factor in a factory tune is keeping it safe under ALL conditions, that factor is not a part of aftermarket tuning.That's why most turbo cars see MPG increases when tuned.

[bbjones121]

Back when I was stage 2, I was getting close to 30mpg.


29 MPG when stock? or stage 2? Confused.


Power = efficiency as applied to time
MPG = efficiency as applied to distance

The goals are slightly different, but 90% of the work for each goal is the same. It's only @ WOT that you see the differences in approaching the goal.

For just cruising, a 'power' tune is basically no different than a 'economy' tune. It's about extracting the most energy from your fuel source.

Also, one factor in a factory tune is keeping it safe under ALL conditions, that factor is not a part of aftermarket tuning.That's why most turbo cars see MPG increases when tuned.

[Silvertop]

Thanks for the fuel economy input, gents. It doesn't look like fuel economy will be much of an issue regardless of which powerplant I choose. They both seem capable of doing pretty well. Ultimate choice will be driven by other issues -- or it could simply come down to whether the suitable donor car I find is a WRX or an NA Impreza..........

How noticeable is the turbo lag on a stock WRX?

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

I'm wondering when someone is going to suggest a Northstar 4.6l V8 installation with the GM 40 transverse transaxle? It usually always is in these types of 'projects' :D

Given some of the weights, maybe only 100-120lbs heavier all in? I'm sure you could re-cope that weight elsewhere :P

the Northstar would be a great option for mid-engine kitcars, except for the fact that there are NO good transmission options.

the northstar was only ever offered in Automatic, there are a few GM 5-speeds that fit (i dont recall exactly, but i think it was a Getrag tranny from a Cavalier?) but they are all junk. its a shame, because it truely is a great engine.

[thebeerbaron]

the Northstar would be a great option for mid-engine kitcars, except for the fact that there are NO good transmission options.

the northstar was only ever offered in Automatic, there are a few GM 5-speeds that fit (i dont recall exactly, but i think it was a Getrag tranny from a Cavalier?) but they are all junk. its a shame, because it truely is a great engine.

Not only that, but replacing a headgasket on the N* causes all sorts of headaches with steel fasteners in cast aluminium threads. What should be a simple job becomes a massive endeavor.

[Benji]

the Northstar would be a great option for mid-engine kitcars, except for the fact that there are NO good transmission options.

the northstar was only ever offered in Automatic, there are a few GM 5-speeds that fit (i dont recall exactly, but i think it was a Getrag tranny from a Cavalier?) but they are all junk. its a shame, because it truely is a great engine.

Looks like all the Fiero people use the GM40 6sp manual, it's also what one of the V8 MR2 guys used:

http://www.mv8r.com/wordpress/a-transverse-v8-mr2-is-possible/

"Northstar bolts right up to the F40. Only one bolt does not line up, and that is easy to fix with a fabbed small bracket. This combo has been in use by the Fiero guys for a couple of years. I should add: it requires some large notching on the internal webs at the top of the bellhousing, to clear the N* starter nose. It also required some smaller notching on one side, on the outside if the bellhousing, to clear the N* water log thing on the back of the block. I also cut off some extra material on the water log. These mods are documented on the Pennock Fiero forum. "

The biggest problem (dependent on the design of the chassis) would be the engine mount points and possibly exhaust routing. Wouldn't it be nice though to have a clear perspex square window between these two rear humps:

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch-rear.jpg

Showing the engine cover with the FFR logo instead of the Cadillac:

http://www.gmpowertrain.com/PowertrainFiles/Engine/Photos/2011%204.6L%20V8%20LD8%20DTS%20LoR.jpg

Would be quite tidy I reckon :)

NOTE THAT THIS PICTURE IS XABIER'S DESIGN AND NOTE MINE!!!!!

[bu11dogg2]

updated my list.

[Draco-REX]

A note to some of the previous posters. Subaru engines do not like really high revs as there are oiling issues to the crank. 8K is about as high as you can expect from a JDM STI 2.0L. The 2.5L engines do not like spnning faster than 7500.

I haven't decided on my build yet, but 400 - 450 crank HP is my goal, which is relatively modest. At my calcs, that's Veyron territory. But with those goals, I can stick with OEM internals and not have to deal with piston-slap and other forged piston issues. It'll also reduce rebuilds. That said, the RalliSpec 2.5L Street Spec Short Block looks REALLY tempting. And those who have used it said that the piston slap when cold is at a surprising minimum.

Heads will get a little TLC, but I might stick with pretty much OEM heads and cams.

TGV deletes are mandatory.

A stock STI turbo will be the snail of choice I think. Enough to hit my power goals without increasing lag much.

A bigger TMIC is likely. I have an idea about getting better airflow to it, but it'll depend on the rear deck design.

I'll also likely run a restrictor on the BPV. I need to start testing this on the WRX soon.

There has been some good progress lately putting the GroupN firmware in the 16-bit ECUs (02-03 WRX). I'm seriously considering this for my WRX now and probably for the 818.

93 vs E85 is debatable. I like the power from corn, but I also really like not having to worry about finding more when empty. I got my first diesel vehicle this year and it can be annoying trying to figure out where to fill up.

I'm sticking with the 5mt for the lower weight. But I'm going to get hardened gears. Straight cut and dogged is a possibility too. I'm not sure on the gearing though. Originally I thought about using the 6mt 1-4,6 ratios. But with the car being so light, the stock 5mt ratios might work better due to less shifting.

[Admiral Doom]

An alternative to the northstar motor would be the FWD 4.6 DOHC from a Lincoln Continental. Aluminum block FWD motor that can use virtually any aftermarket part for a 96-04 Mustang, including the top end from an 03-04 Cobra. If anyone still wants torque, that's your motor.

[adesilva]

I find it hard to believe that a slightly modified WRX motor couldnt be enough for anyone on this build but thats just me. From the factory the WRX is about 230hp but based off what many posters here have said with very little work you can get it to about 300hp.

By comparison a brand new Corvette Z06 (Only used because everyone seems to use it as a golden standard for speed) weights 3175lbs and has 505hp from the factory.

So going off the 1800lb the Z06 weighs approx 1.765 times (1800x1.765 = 3177) so using that to gauge the effect of the hp to weight difference ( Stock WRX Motor 230x1.765 = 405.95) (slightly modified WRX Motor 300x1.765 = 529.5). So in theory a slightly modified 818 should be faster than a brand new Z06 and for 1/5 the price.

The slightly modified WRX motor in the 818 would be about 167 hp per ton while the Z06 is about 159. Basically what I am getting at is the fact that this car simply doesnt need a huge V8 or any other motor for that matter. FF has done an amazing job of picking a great set up on this car and if speed is what you are looking for then I think the WRX setup is perfect. At least for street use I dont think I would want anything over 300hp.. at that point already you would probably be looking at a 3.5-4 second 0-60 time and this car would already be able to handle better than the Z06 as well.. cant go wrong there.

Just thinking about it gets me excited for Saturday !

[SccrMan13]

2.0l ecoboost from the 2012 focus st. Plenty of power and good econ. I dont know why people are against the V8 in a car this light. The 33 hot rod is not much heavier and i have seen some of those with 600hp monsters. They are prolly unnecessary but i bet they are still fun.

[305mouse]

I haven't decided on my build yet, but 400 - 450 crank HP is my goal, which is relatively modest... I can stick with OEM internals and not have to deal with piston-slap and other forged piston issues. It'll also reduce rebuilds. That said, the RalliSpec 2.5L Street Spec Short Block looks REALLY tempting. And those who have used it said that the piston slap when cold is at a surprising minimum.

Heads will get a little TLC, but I might stick with pretty much OEM heads and cams.

TGV deletes are mandatory.

A stock STI turbo will be the snail of choice I think. Enough to hit my power goals without increasing lag much.

A bigger TMIC is likely. I have an idea about getting better airflow to it, but it'll depend on the rear deck design.

I'll also likely run a restrictor on the BPV. I need to start testing this on the WRX soon.

I don't know how expect to almost double the HP output of the motor while just doing TGV deletes? The heads won't be able to flow enough air without some head work. If you're talking the VF39 turbo, I don't think it can hit that goal. The newer STI turbo, yes with supporting mods. Do you plan on using a 2.0 or the 2.5?

[Draco-REX]

I don't know how expect to almost double the HP output of the motor while just doing TGV deletes? The heads won't be able to flow enough air without some head work. If you're talking the VF39 turbo, I don't think it can hit that goal. The newer STI turbo, yes with supporting mods. Do you plan on using a 2.0 or the 2.5?
2.5L. Also, keep in mind that my goal is crank hp, not wheel hp. The 07 STI has been known to hit 300awhp with just a turbo-back exhaust and a tune. The STI's driveline loss is figured to be about 26%. So that's around 400hp at the crank, which is my goal. With TGV deletes, fueling, header, and UP, I'm sure I can hit my minimum goal at least.

[Gollum]

Draco - I think that's a realistic goal. I've also seen over 400 AWHP out of stock STI longblocks, so as long as your motor and tanny hold together I think the STI turbo can get you there. I'd just suggest running E85 for simply the sake of getting there more reliably though, with less sensitivity to timing, and thus destructive detonation.

[bu11dogg2]

A note to some of the previous posters. Subaru engines do not like really high revs as there are oiling issues to the crank. 8K is about as high as you can expect from a JDM STI 2.0L. The 2.5L engines do not like spnning faster than 7500.

I haven't decided on my build yet, but 400 - 450 crank HP is my goal, which is relatively modest. At my calcs, that's Veyron territory. But with those goals, I can stick with OEM internals and not have to deal with piston-slap and other forged piston issues. It'll also reduce rebuilds. That said, the RalliSpec 2.5L Street Spec Short Block looks REALLY tempting. And those who have used it said that the piston slap when cold is at a surprising minimum.

Heads will get a little TLC, but I might stick with pretty much OEM heads and cams.

TGV deletes are mandatory.

A stock STI turbo will be the snail of choice I think. Enough to hit my power goals without increasing lag much.

A bigger TMIC is likely. I have an idea about getting better airflow to it, but it'll depend on the rear deck design.

I'll also likely run a restrictor on the BPV. I need to start testing this on the WRX soon.

There has been some good progress lately putting the GroupN firmware in the 16-bit ECUs (02-03 WRX). I'm seriously considering this for my WRX now and probably for the 818.

93 vs E85 is debatable. I like the power from corn, but I also really like not having to worry about finding more when empty. I got my first diesel vehicle this year and it can be annoying trying to figure out where to fill up.

I'm sticking with the 5mt for the lower weight. But I'm going to get hardened gears. Straight cut and dogged is a possibility too. I'm not sure on the gearing though. Originally I thought about using the 6mt 1-4,6 ratios. But with the car being so light, the stock 5mt ratios might work better due to less shifting.

revs?

I make peak HP at 7000RPM. USDM motors rarely even touch that RPM. I redline at 8250 still making in the 300whp range.

My car stock on that dyno makes about 190/190
http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=1767&rgb1=000000255

TGV deletes do little to nothing. any reputable tuner will tell you that ;)

[Draco-REX]

revs?

I make peak HP at 7000RPM. USDM motors rarely even touch that RPM. I redline at 8250 still making in the 300whp range.

My car stock on that dyno makes about 190/190
http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=1767&rgb1=000000255

TGV deletes do little to nothing. any reputable tuner will tell you that ;)

The stock STI redline of 7000 is fine, really. I might bump it to 7250, but I can hit my goals with 7k. I was considering an 8K 2.0L (there's a shortblock sitting at a friend's shop collecting dust,) but while a lot of fun, I think it'll take more to hit my goals than a larger 2.5 block.

TGV deletes are a "1%" thing, not a magic bullet. But I want to eke all I can from the stock STI turbo. As it is, the majority of the work of doing the deletes will be done when the injectors are being replaced. So I might as well do them.

I have modest power goals for a few reasons; keep spool down, reliability up, and really with 1800lbs to move around you don't need crazy power. I'm keeping minimal spool time as an important goal because I want to AutoX this, and I've become addicted to the nigh instant spool characteristics I've achieved with my WRX. I know I won't get the same response with the larger STI turbo, but I want to come as close as possible.

One nice thing about this conversion for the 818 is that with a spool for the center diff, no driveshaft U-joints or rear diff/axles, driveline losses are going to be greatly reduced. We might see losses go down to 20% or less. I hope someone with a purely stock-motored 818 puts it on rollers.

[mekeys]

I just want to go down the street at 35 MPH in STYLE..

Mel

[bu11dogg2]

The stock STI redline of 7000 is fine, really. I might bump it to 7250, but I can hit my goals with 7k. I was considering an 8K 2.0L (there's a shortblock sitting at a friend's shop collecting dust,) but while a lot of fun, I think it'll take more to hit my goals than a larger 2.5 block.

TGV deletes are a "1%" thing, not a magic bullet. But I want to eke all I can from the stock STI turbo. As it is, the majority of the work of doing the deletes will be done when the injectors are being replaced. So I might as well do them.

I have modest power goals for a few reasons; keep spool down, reliability up, and really with 1800lbs to move around you don't need crazy power. I'm keeping minimal spool time as an important goal because I want to AutoX this, and I've become addicted to the nigh instant spool characteristics I've achieved with my WRX. I know I won't get the same response with the larger STI turbo, but I want to come as close as possible.

One nice thing about this conversion for the 818 is that with a spool for the center diff, no driveshaft U-joints or rear diff/axles, driveline losses are going to be greatly reduced. We might see losses go down to 20% or less. I hope someone with a purely stock-motored 818 puts it on rollers.

you won't be making much power at 7250 with any usdm STi turbo. If you want quick spool you'll need a VF37 twin scroll kit.

[Draco-REX]

you won't be making much power at 7250 with any usdm STi turbo. If you want quick spool you'll need a VF37 twin scroll kit.

If it's truly an improvement over a well tuned VF43, then possibly. But for a low-displacement engine like these, twin scrolls haven't shown earth-shattering results. As for upper-end power, a lot of the issues people see with the stock turbos "running out of breath" is actually the hot side restricting the exhaust flow. Going to an external wastegate has been shown to free up high rpm power.

[bu11dogg2]

this will give you an idea of how much faster a twinscroll kit is at spooling. Both cars have ver8 motors

VF37 twin scroll vs HT68
http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=1361&rgb1=000000255&runid2=1767&rgb2=204000000

VF37 Twin Scroll vs VF39 with identical mods (not a great comparison as the vf37 also has AVCS)

http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=846&rgb1=000000255&runid2=1361&rgb2=204000000

[Draco-REX]

this will give you an idea of how much faster a twinscroll kit is at spooling. Both cars have ver8 motors

VF37 twin scroll vs HT68
http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=1361&rgb1=000000255&runid2=1767&rgb2=204000000

VF37 Twin Scroll vs VF39 with identical mods (not a great comparison as the vf37 also has AVCS)

http://efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=846&rgb1=000000255&runid2=1361&rgb2=204000000
I'm not sold that 200-300rpm is worth the added cost and complexity, which is why I'm not planning on a twin scroll.

[Ironhydroxide]

don't care what people say, when I get one of these, it WILL be getting an EG33 or an EZ30

[Xusia]

For the uninformed, those are... ??

[PhyrraM]

For the informed, those are... ??

Subaru's H6 powerplants.

They are longer than a 4 cylinders, so not "officially" supported. The common conception (speculation) is that they can likely be made to fit fairly easily by modifying the fuel tank and/or seating position.

[slopoke]

According to earlier threads, the EZ motors are only 7/10ths of an inch longer than the 4s ... divide that in half and you need less than a half inch of clearance to "shoehorn" one in. I'm gonna be looking for an EZ36D because I like the idea of an N/A motor. ... and I'm sure it can be chipped and tuned to put out at least 300 hp and still be reliable ... and have dual exhaust

[PhilElement]

don't care what people say, when I get one of these, it WILL be getting an EG33 or an EZ30

Well those engines have a lot of potential if you're willing to go custom and have a big budget. We've been part of a 900 HP ez 30 and are now working on a 1200 HP alcohol eg33. If you're going NA the ez30r is a good choice and I tuned one to about 300 hp using a Hydra EMS (same for other projects).

As for the length posted that doesn't sound right to me based on the front end clearances I remember. Also unless you will move the transmission back all your length is added towards the front.

[Etos]

N/A High Compression Destroked EJ257 to 2.34l
Long Rods
Blue Printed and Balanced
D25 Heads with DAVCS
Ported Dogleg, minor porting for the rest
Cams, +1 Valves, Bowl Blending
06+ WRX trans or STi 4.44

May also get a tiny turbo for 5-10psi for a little extra power.

[Xusia]

That sounds an awful lot like what Maxwell Performance builds.

[Etos]

That sounds an awful lot like what Maxwell Performance builds.

Cause they build my motors :)

They are currently building me a destroked 2.5 to 2.34 and bored back out to 2.5 with sleeves and 102.xx JE pistons, +2 long rods, billet crank, coated everything, 272 kelfords, +1 valves, PnP ~27% IIRC, Full Race twinscroll on an EFR 7670 .92 IWG and 50% meth injection for my 2008 STi.

[slopoke]

Didn't Perrin do an EZ30 out to around 800 hp?

[PhilElement]

Didn't Perrin do an EZ30 out to around 800 hp?

No they didn't go big with that EZ30R STi (EZ30 and EZ30R are different motors). There aren't too many high power EZ30Rs out there since it takes custom parts to build up. The one we worked on was an EZ30 which was from the Outback (non AVCS, no high lift cam, no DBW).

Making big power NA on Subarus honestly just isn't worth it. It's easy to think they make more low end power and have better throttle response but they really don't where it matters, in the midrange. Even a stock STi turbo setup is making 300 ft lbs early in the rpm range. For instance here's one of our high compression Element Pro Comp Engines, Hydra EMS, Element GT75 turbo kit.

6440

There is no way an NA EZ 6 cylinder is going to make 440 ft/lbs of torque at 4,000 RPM or 330 HP at 4k RPM let alone make that HP by 8k rpm. Just saying but everyone has the right to do what they want and what they like :)

If you're going 800 HP plus the H6 options are great.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[bbjones121]

Didn't Perrin do an EZ30 out to around 800 hp?

Unless you don't care about reliability, I wouldn't run that much power on the EZ engine block. I would recommend the EG3.3 which is a stretched EJ block.

[RM1SepEx]

A stock WRX motor should be an excellent starting point at the 818 KG target... It's easier to chassis tune at lower HP levels and I've found that 10 lbs per HP is an excellent power figure, the stock wrx will exceed that level...

After tuning the chassis, who knows what will happen!

[shinn497]

Im drooling over the Jdm ej207 ver 8. 8k redline with twin scroll turbo. I hear the spec c ver has forged internals (confirm?).

It seems these can go up to 400 whp on a vf36. Which I think is stock.

[PhilElement]

That's what everyone said including yours truly but that car ran a stock open deck EZ30 block and the block held up. It was a drag only car but still it held together at massive power levels. Not going too say it would ever hold up road racing without blowing head gaskets as a semi closed deck is superior but at say 75 hp a cylinder it would ok.

[projectrally]

A stock WRX motor should be an excellent starting point at the 818 KG target... It's easier to chassis tune at lower HP levels and I've found that 10 lbs per HP is an excellent power figure, the stock wrx will exceed that level...

After tuning the chassis, who knows what will happen!

Agreed. I'm likely starting with an 05 Saab 9-2x. Base 2.0 WRX drivetrain with an STI's quicker steering rack and no obnoxious engine immobilized. I have a friend who has consented to sell me his 9-2x rather than trade it in next fall. In a perfect world I'd start with a JDM v8 ej207 to get that tasty 8200 rpm redline, but that's really not cost effective.

Plan A is to get the car built and dialed in for neutral handling. My 2600lb PRHT MX-5 was regularly beating WRXs and STIs at the autocross, with a much lower power to weight ratio. It's not because I'm a great driver (I'm average on a good day), it's because the car was balanced and precise in a way that bigger, heavier cars often aren't. If the 818 can be made as balanced as the MX-5 (I'm hoping I can make it a lot better), while also having 800 pounds less weight and an additional 70hp, I don't see why I'd ever need more at my current skill level.

if I'm ever able to out-drive the car's capabilities at some point in the future, I'll think about more power.

[Draco-REX]

So I was thinking of sourcing an engine and transmission from the start. But after looking at the process for getting a title in my state, I think I'm going to pick up a titled donor, throw the engine and trans in, get the title, then rip them out and build what I want.

[el_jefe]

I'd love to drop one of these in. . .

http://www.h1v8.com/i/350wide/home_page_engine2.jpg

http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm

[GPZ10]

I've always loved the Haybusa V-8. Never heard one run though... I'm imagining something along the lines of a F-1 car. One thing that confused me about their page though, just now when I was reading it:
"The engine is ideally suited for track cars and other lightweight race or recreational vehicles which have been limited to 4 cylinder engines for size and weight reasons."
It's still 8 cylinders, so I'm not sure what they're getting at here?

[projectrally]

I've always loved the Haybusa V-8. Never heard one run though... I'm imagining something along the lines of a F-1 car. One thing that confused me about their page though, just now when I was reading it:
"The engine is ideally suited for track cars and other lightweight race or recreational vehicles which have been limited to 4 cylinder engines for size and weight reasons."
It's still 8 cylinders, so I'm not sure what they're getting at here?

It's a V8, but it's a TINY V8. Very light weight, very compact. Hardly any more displacement at 2.8L than a lot of 4 cyl motors.

[GPZ10]

It's a V8, but it's a TINY V8. Very light weight, very compact. Hardly any more displacement at 2.8L than a lot of 4 cyl motors.

Got ya, so they're just referring to the physical size of the motor, and not the number of cylinders. I kinda thought that's what they were getting at, but wasn't sure. It almost seemed like they were trying to say that it could run in races restricted to only 4 cyl. engines, etc. but I knew that wasn't really possible.

[el_jefe]

Never heard one run though... I'm imagining something along the lines of a F-1 car.


http://youtu.be/f70AeryyDAE

[gorilla]

First of all. Turbo lag is really a non issue unless you plan on driving around town in this thing below 25mph most of the time. Secondly, turbo lag is irrelevant as long as you have proper gearing for the application. Thirdly in all forms of motorsports, the width and shape of the powerband is really the largest priority. I personally would rather have a ton of lag below 4k and have a fat power band all the way to 8k than a quick spooling setup that hits full boost at 2500rpm and craps the bed at 6k. And again gearing is very important, don't forget that you're always a downshift away from power.

That being said the STI VF39 & VF48's can have a great wide, usable powerband anything smaller on the 2.5 and your doing the motor a dis-service.

[GPZ10]

(video)

Not bad at all. I'd really like to consider an engine like this, but if I build this, I don't think it'd be as easy as a Suby motor would be. I would think that Dave will make that as plug and play as he can, so I'll probably stick with that. But this sounds awesome.

[el_jefe]

The swap wouldn't be too bad, but the $20k pricetag for the motor would make most folks think twice.

[Xusia]

<cough, cough!> I plan to build my entire 818 for less than that!

[GPZ10]

The swap wouldn't be too bad, but the $20k pricetag for the motor would make most folks think twice.
WAY too much for a motor, I think.

<cough, cough!> I plan to build my entire 818 for less than that!

That's what I was thinking.

[shinn497]

Plan A is to get the car built and dialed in for neutral handling. My 2600lb PRHT MX-5 was regularly beating WRXs and STIs at the autocross, with a much lower power to weight ratio. It's not because I'm a great driver (I'm average on a good day), it's because the car was balanced and precise in a way that bigger, heavier cars often aren't. If the 818 can be made as balanced as the MX-5 (I'm hoping I can make it a lot better), while also having 800 pounds less weight and an additional 70hp, I don't see why I'd ever need more at my current skill level.



Why isn't the ej207 cost effective. It is my favorite choice atm.

[projectrally]

Well, it is an affordable motor by most counts. You can get a low mileage one with all the accessories for about $5500 - $7500 these days. Make sure you get everything included - the turbo, intercooler, wiring harness, ECU, etc. A lot of times the importers pull off the good bits to sell separately.

That's not a horrible price if you're used to shopping for GM and Ford crate motors. But it's not affordable when you consider that you can get a whole running 02-05 WRX for that same $5500 - 7500 all day long. With the full car, you'll get everything you need to build the 818 and you'd still have a ton of parts to sell back to help recoup some cash.

You could probably build a car with an EJ207 for $20,000 if you were very careful about finding the best deal on parts. That's still relatively affordable, but I think the only way to build this car for the advertised 15K cost is to start with a running 02-05 Impreza or WRX. The 06-07 cars are still too expensive, unless you find a good deal on a salvage one.

[shinn497]

I agree. Actually I would go higher. I just talked to a vender from the NASIOC forum and the quoted the ej207 at 5k I think this was complete.

In truth, a jdm motor is a lot of hassle, especially in california. So I would expect the price to be high. My goal is to do a budget build initially and then upgrade later.

I have another question. I hear the ej207 doesn't really run well on 91 (cali ><), would it be possible to run e85 for better performance?

[Draco-REX]

I have another question. I hear the ej207 doesn't really run well on 91 (cali ><), would it be possible to run e85 for better performance?
I'm sure it'd love E85. But you'll need a bigger fuel pump and injectors, plus a tune because E85 requires around 30% more fuel than gas.

[Twinspool]

Megasquirt 3 can handle flex fuel dual mapping so you can run E85, 91, or any mixture in between. 30% more mass with E85 means correspondingly more mass driving the turbine. Hooray!

[projectrally]

I have another question. I hear the ej207 doesn't really run well on 91 (cali ><), would it be possible to run e85 for better performance?

Oh, that's good. That's something I wasn't even thinking about. Japanese fuel is available at a higher octane. They rate it differently, but it would still amount to about 95 octane using the US rating system.

The best we can get in ME is 91 octane. I was very angry the day 93 went away. But with 91 octane only, your best bet for a quick and easy solution to getting the car running smoothly is a USDM car with a motor and ECU already tuned to run on pump gas.

[Canadian818]

Does all 92-94 octane gasoline contain some ethanol? I have both 93 and 94 available but they both say "may contain up to 10% ethanol" at the pump. Doesn't mention it for 87 at the same station, and everywhere else that only sell up to 91 make no mention of it at all.