Coyote starter won't crank?

[bansheekev]

I am completing my final checks before going for a first start and have an issue where the starter will not crank.

I have verified all the voltages/grounds required on the Controls Pack 'blunt leads'. With the neutral lockout grounded and turned to start, nothing.

It is wired to use the Controls Pack 'start request' method (which is optional but that's what I did).

Fuel pump comes on but one interesting thing is the fuel pump light is the only light illuminated on the power distribution box (no PCM light). I can hook up my computer to the OBDII port and communicate with the PCM (get no codes present).

Planning on calling Ford Racing tomorrow, but anyone have any thoughts? Has anyone used this start request wiring method or did you bypass it?

Thanks in advance...

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Oh, yes I verified all the fuses (in the Ron Francis harness and in the power distribution box) are all fine...

Kevin

[FFinisher]

Do you have the White lead connected to the starter? and the black lead connected to ground? Ford racing will tell you to make sure the black lead goes directly to the battery.


Also do you have a heavy ground strap between the block and the frame?

Is the computer plugged in? - yes it has to be plugged in to crank.

[Jester]

When you turn the key do you hear a click from the starter? If not - double check all of your connections and re trace each wire and confirm against the wiring diagram. Also, Double check that the crank turns freely by using a large socket on the crank bolt on the front of the engine. If the crank turns freely, than the wiring is the issue.

If the Crank does not turn freely and if you are using the FFR recommended FRPP aluminum bell housing, the fly wheel may be binding against the bell housing. This happened to me and I had to pull the engine and trans to remove the bell housing to grind off a very small amount from the bell housing causing the interference. I previously documented this issue and posted pictures on this for reference in the coyote forum. If you are using a different bell housing than the FRPP part listed by FFR, then this can be ruled out and it is the wiring.

Hopefully it is just the wiring

Good luck

[bansheekev]

Do you have the White lead connected to the starter? and the black lead connected to ground? Ford racing will tell you to make sure the black lead goes directly to the battery.


Also do you have a heavy ground strap between the block and the frame?

Is the computer plugged in? - yes it has to be plugged in to crank.

All wiring confirmed correct per Ford Racing. Wire to starter is actually tan/light green, documentation appears wrong. Ground wire directly to battery. Block is grounded to the frame via a #4 wire.

I am going to play with the neutral lockout wire to the controls pack. It is grounded but at the same ground as the Ron Francis harness. Maybe it is not 'clean' enough for the computer...

Kevin

[bansheekev]

When you turn the key do you hear a click from the starter? If not - double check all of your connections and re trace each wire and confirm against the wiring diagram. Also, Double check that the crank turns freely by using a large socket on the crank bolt on the front of the engine. If the crank turns freely, than the wiring is the issue.

If the Crank does not turn freely and if you are using the FFR recommended FRPP aluminum bell housing, the fly wheel may be binding against the bell housing. This happened to me and I had to pull the engine and trans to remove the bell housing to grind off a very small amount from the bell housing causing the interference. I previously documented this issue and posted pictures on this for reference in the coyote forum. If you are using a different bell housing than the FRPP part listed by FFR, then this can be ruled out and it is the wiring.

Hopefully it is just the wiring

Good luck

No starter click. Dead. No 12v on the trigger wire at the starter when key turned to crank (as previously stated and confirmed with a couple other people the wire is tan/light green).

I'm using a QuickTime bell housing and confirmed that it turns when starter jumped manually.

Going to play with the neutral lockout circuit to guarantee a clean ground. It is grounded together with the Ron Francis harness now. Maybe the controls pack doesn't like noise...

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Anyone know which lights on the power distribution box are supposed to be on with just key on power (before attempting to start)? Mine has only the fuel pump light lit (I have 55psi at the regulator).

Thanks in advance...

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Anyone know which lights on the power distribution box are supposed to be on with just key on power (before attempting to start)? Mine has only the fuel pump light lit (I have 55psi at the regulator).

Thanks in advance...

Kevin

]ClemsomS197 confirmed that the power distribution box has both the fuel pump and PCM lights on when turned to key on power but before cranking. Mine has only fuel pump lit. Next guess is bad PCM relay in the power distribution box or bad PCM.

I'm going to swap the relays between PCM and fuel pump (confirming first that all the relays are the same part number). See if the problem follows the relay...

Crossing fingers, after that I have to ship the PCM to Ford Racing - argggg...

Kevin

[Jester]

Ok you may want to start from basic principles and double check the following:

(Please ignore if you have already completed the following and still not start)

FFR Installation instructions are the latest version
Inertia switch is engaged
Fuses in chassis fuse box are good
Gas pedal, ECU, 02 sensors and MAF are properly connected (any one of these could/will cause a failure)
Wiring connected as per FFR instructions
Clutch safety switch is bypassed (if not using) blue wires are connected together – see photo 24890
Chassis harness orange wire and blue wires are properly connected to Coyote 12V Start/run wire (red/green) and 12V start wire (red (blue) respectively - refer to photo 24889
PCM is wired as per FFR instructions
Neutral safety switch from Coyote harness is routed to ground
You mentioned the fuel pump turns on so – no issue there
All grounds properly connected as per instructions

If after double checking these the problem is not resolved, you will need to test starter relay and other components for failure.

Hopefully it is the inertia switch

[bansheekev]

Ok you may want to start from basic principles and double check the following:

(Please ignore if you have already completed the following and still not start)

FFR Installation instructions are the latest version
Inertia switch is engaged
Fuses in chassis fuse box are good
Gas pedal, ECU, 02 sensors and MAF are properly connected (any one of these could/will cause a failure)
Wiring connected as per FFR instructions
Clutch safety switch is bypassed (if not using) blue wires are connected together – see photo 24890
Chassis harness orange wire and blue wires are properly connected to Coyote 12V Start/run wire (red/green) and 12V start wire (red (blue) respectively - refer to photo 24889
PCM is wired as per FFR instructions
Neutral safety switch from Coyote harness is routed to ground
You mentioned the fuel pump turns on so – no issue there
All grounds properly connected as per instructions

If after double checking these the problem is not resolved, you will need to test starter relay and other components for failure.

Hopefully it is the inertia switch


Yes - FFR Installation instructions are the latest version
Yes - Inertia switch is engaged
Yes - Fuses in chassis fuse box are good (I also checked the ones in the Controls Pack power distribution box)
Yes - Gas pedal, ECU, 02 sensors and MAF are properly connected (any one of these could/will cause a failure)
Yes - Wiring connected as per FFR instructions
Yes - Clutch safety switch is bypassed (if not using) blue wires are connected together – see photo 24890
Yes - Chassis harness orange wire and blue wires are properly connected to Coyote 12V Start/run wire (red/green) and 12V start wire (red (blue) respectively - refer to photo 24889
Yes - PCM is wired as per FFR instructions
Yes - Neutral safety switch from Coyote harness is routed to ground
Yes - All grounds properly connected as per instructions

I can jump the starter manually by applying 12v to the solenoid post and it turns - If after double checking these the problem is not resolved, you will need to test starter relay and other components for failure.

[Jester]

Ok

You may want to get your volt meter out and begin trouble shooting the start/run circuit (continuity and voltage) and double check the engine ground and ground return from the starter to the battery (confirm continuity). It seems as though the circuit may not be getting power from the ignition switch to the PCM - you may want to confirm the wires to and from the ignition switch are correct.

[bansheekev]

Ok

You may want to get your volt meter out and begin trouble shooting the start/run circuit (continuity and voltage) and double check the engine ground and ground return from the starter to the battery (confirm continuity). It seems as though the circuit may not be getting power from the ignition switch to the PCM - you may want to confirm the wires to and from the ignition switch are correct.

I verified continuity, voltage, and ground at the PCM based on the controls pack documentation. Run at the PCM has constant 12v in the run and crank position, start at the PCM has 12v when key in crank positin. There is a feed from the PCM to the power distribution box which tells the PCM relay to close while in the run position. I verified that there is no voltage on this feed at the power distribution box which explains why the PCM light is not coming on.

I swapped the fuel pump and PCM relays in the power distribution box and fuel pump continued to work and PCM did not. Again, PCM not telling the PCM relay to turn on is the issue.

I know the PCM is on as a scan tool can talk to it through the OBDII port. Says MIL is off and no stored codes.

I'm pretty much at the point of assuming the PCM is bad... Arggg

Kevin

[Jester]

Unfortunately - my car & dash are now complete and I can't access the wiring to/from the Coyote's black power distribution box to assist you on this but the FFR installation instructions document this well. I do recall that improper connections of components to the PCM or faulty components (i.e. gas pedal) may cause a failure mode.

You may want to speak with FFR tech support or FRPP to assist. I spoke with FFR to trouble shoot a fan relay issue and Rick would double check against their install. FFR (Rick & Jesper) did a great job assisting me with any questions I had during my install.

Good luck

[bansheekev]

Ford Racing wants me to send the PCM back to them based on my latest conversation with them. Sending it out today.

I get what you are saying, but my assumption would be that the PCM would throw codes for such problems (bad O2 sensor, gas pedal, etc). My scan tool says MIL off and no codes... Maybe an invalid assumption?

Kevin

[Jester]

Please keep us posted re the solution

Good luck

[bansheekev]

Quick update here - a lot more detail on the other forum but here it goes:

- As of today no change, still have same problem
- I sent my computer back to Ford Racing for diagnostics and they found no problems and returned it
- I have swapped computers with a fellow locall builder - no change
- I have redone all the grounds on the controls pack harness - no change
- I rechecked the engine block ground - no change
- Rechecked all the Ron Francis and Power Distribution Box relays and fuses - they are all fine
- I have revalidated all the blunt lead wiring, voltages, and grounds as called for in the documentation - no change
- Today, Ford Racing has me in touch with the manufacturer who makes the controls pack wiring harness and they are asking all the right questions. We went through a bunch of troubleshooting and diagnostics checks. They are reviewing and are going to get back to me with next steps (either additional tests or guideance).

I feel like I am in the right hands now.

More to come with my $10k brick.

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Found the problem!

You will never guess what it was....

Loose fuse on the PCM circuit on the Controls Pack power distribution box. I never removed the fuse but had checked continuity across it multiple times by touching the top of the fuse. Today I did it again and noticed it moved. I pulled the fuse, took some needle nose pliers and closed up the gap on the fuse connector on the printed circuit board, reinstalled the fuse and the PCM light came on.

So simple yet so hard to find...

Yeah! Going for first start tomorrow after I put the dash back together tonight.

Kevin

[Tom Mauldin]

Congrats on the discovery! Good luck tomorrow!

[ckrueger]

Great News!! Can't wait to see the smile on your face....... I mean your post on the first start!!!

[amasciarelli21]

That's great news , i'll be trying a start of my own hopefully in a week or two so you can imagine I've been watching your posts as they came up just in case Good luck!

[bansheekev]

Added coolant, primed it, got my fired extinguisher and a couple towels out, rolled it out of the garage and it fired immediately!

One small coolant drip from the lower radiator hose. Couple cranks of the clamp and its officially running without a hitch.

Video: http://youtu.be/f3NAeXXBOq8

So pumped, this thing sounds wicked...

Kevin

[E-Ticket Ride]

Outstanding!!!
Glad you found the gremlin. Sounds wicked.:cool:

What, if anything, did you do for pre-oilling your engine pre-start??

Chris

[bansheekev]

Outstanding!!!
Glad you found the gremlin. Sounds wicked.:cool:

What, if anything, did you do for pre-oilling your engine pre-start??

Chris

I used the kit supplied remote oil filter, a 1990 5.0 oil pump, some custom machined adapter blocks on the oil pump, and tapped into the oil pressure port on the engine. Ran 6 quarts through it and had 90 psi at start within 1 second. Cost $25.

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Here is a picture of the pre-oiler... Design borrowed from Dave Borden...

25374

Kevin

[bansheekev]

The beauty of using the factory overflow tank, hoses, and routing is that filling the cooling system is as simple as pouring the coolant into the overflow tank. I just would fill it, let it drop, top it off, let it drop, etc until it stopped falling. After starting it just had to top it off one more time and done. Took 4 gallons (2 gallons of concentrate diluted to 50/50)...

Kevin

[DaleG]

The beauty of using the factory overflow tank, hoses, and routing is that filling the cooling system is as simple as pouring the coolant into the overflow tank. I just would fill it, let it drop, top it off, let it drop, etc until it stopped falling. After starting it just had to top it off one more time and done. Took 4 gallons (2 gallons of concentrate diluted to 50/50)...

Kevin

No high point venting? Heater coil?

[bansheekev]

No high point venting? Heater coil?

The tank and the two smaller hoses coming in from the radiator and engine are also their respective high points. I just ran the motor with the heater circuit on.

Kevin

[DaleG]

Thanks.