My issues with the 818 (my prebuild thread)

[Speedy G]

I'm having a few issues with the 818. I really think these need to be solved for the car to be a viable replacement for my 135i. The problems really aren't that easy to solve:

1) The crossbar in front of the seat is just lame. It's a deal breaker. My car needs to have seats that slide and lift for a 5'2" driver and also adjust for a 5'11" driver. This is really is a minimum in terms of creature comforts, and the seat frame can't weigh more than a couple of pounds. I'm thinking that a seat frame that raises the seat over the crossbar could be a viable solution.

2) Windows - Convertibles are nice, hard tops are more practical, but no windows is just unacceptable. It rains all the time where I live at the drop of a dime. I need to be able to close the cockpit and quickly. I love the look of the convertible, but zip windows just don't fit the look of the car. I'm thinking a targa top may be the easiest thing to build and have glass windows seal properly. The rear roll bar is perfect for it. Ok, all this isn't light, but it makes the car 10x more of a daily driver.

3) I have a problem buying a donor for USD10k (where i live), when out of the major parts needed for the kit, I'll only be using the following:

• Front spindles
• Rear spindles
• Steering rack, tie rod ends
• Pedal box and throttle pedal
• Master brake cylinder
• Rear toe links, and CV joints
• front seat belts, and gauge pod
• Rear seat belts
• Fuel pump
• Radiator
• Door hinges, rear w/ latches,strikers, and inside door handles
• Side view mirrors, left and right
• Rear view mirror

Is that really worth 10k? Most of those parts are pretty generic. Remember, I'll be using a VW engine. Either a high revving 1.8T (8500RPM) or a 3.2T VR6. The idea is to have around ~240hp as a minimum (call it valet mode), 300whp as the regular power output, and 400whp either as a track program or scramble mode (yup, button on the steering wheel).

4) Cost - The original kit is actually really cheap. But I'd like a CAN bus harness ($$), standalone ECU ($$), racelogic traction control($$), cool seats, cool dash, touchscreen center console, high end sound.

Comments?

Speedy G

[Erik W. Treves]

keep the 135i....very nice machine and add a cobb tune and let it rip

in any event

"1) The crossbar in front of the seat is just lame. It's a deal breaker." ---sounds like you're done..... problems solved...

[JeromeS13]

The 818 will never have the same creature comforts as your BMW and will not replace a daily driver, nor was it intended to.

[07FIREBLADE]

Mine will and I'm fine with that. If I could daily drive a 91 DA or s13. I can drive an 818. Money and imagination is the limit.

[Canadian818]

keep the 135i....very nice machine and add a cobb tune and let it rip

in any event

"1) The crossbar in front of the seat is just lame. It's a deal breaker." ---sounds like you're done..... problems solved...

Harsh! I believe someone else has removed this bar. They asked FFR, and it isn't considered vital or something, you'll have to search the build threads.


The 818 will never have the same creature comforts as your BMW and will not replace a daily driver, nor was it intended to.

This is something that seems to be lost on many. To think they can have a home built car that will compare to German or Japanese build quality, especially with regards to creature comforts is unrealistic. (American maybe, :p)

[07FIREBLADE]

I believe it was on a R which I could see it as being unnecessary in comparison to a S model. Bigger and beefier cage.

[jontexas]

If you add all those creature comforts, it won't be 1900 lbs anymore. And if you're not using the engine and tranny from a WRX (which is sort of the point of the car), then you should be able to acquire the required parts, even including an ECU for less than 10k.

[Speedy G]

I'm not trying to build a BMW. The beamer is so well behaved it's lame. The current M5 is the epitomy of what I don't want in a "sports" car. It's fast, but it sure doesn't seem like it from inside the car. My wife will probably inherit the beamer. My old 300whp skoda was more exciting with all the torque steer and tricky cornering with all that power, even if it was a lot slower.

What I want is to the traction limit power delivery and superb handling, but there's a minimum I need in terms of creature comforts. The '33 hotrod has all those, and is the kit I was looking into originally, but the 818 is just the sports car I'd like to have, mid-engine and all. Yeah, the GTM too, but I prefer the 818 concept.

Now to be specific on my #1 issue. What I need is an adjustable seat. I can live with the crossmember as long as my wife can reach the pedals.

[Speedy G]

Maybe not 1900lbs, but under 2000 for sure. Regarding the "point of the car", yeah it's awesome that you can turn a subie into a 2 minute willow springs racer, I just wish there was such an option for VAG cars, and I'm sure the honda guys are thinking the same. I know there's other kits, but there's a reason we're all on this board. I think the point really is that kit cars are no longer american iron derivatives. With this kit and a lowly 2.5L engine, you can blast any muscle car off the track. I actually have no preference for either, but at 8600 ft of altitude, you better have a turbo or about 30% of your displacement is useless. At his altitude my 135i beats a Carrera S on the track with little effort.

[Xusia]

Based on your first post, I think the 818 isn't for you. I get that you like the looks and the idea, but in the end I think it will only end up frustrating you because it isn't the car you want it to be.

That said, wait a few years. Hold on to that BMW and see what develops. FFR talked about a hard top, a potential coupe, and even other power trains. No promises, but waiting is free...

[jontexas]

If your planning on fabbing up different engine mounts, frame etc., there's plenty of options for floor mounted pedals that could potentially be movable.

That said, at least one builder (of an S) has deleted the cross-member in front of the seats. Pretty darn sure anyway.

I think my number one issue will be finding a WRX that I will actually break for parts. Bought a 2004 wagon today for $5k. Runs great, has some leaks, but will be too good a car to part out after I've brought her up to snuff.

[RM1SepEx]

I removed the bar and installed sliders in my S #17

It's a kit, you can do whatever you want! 10K for a donor? Has anyone spent that much? I have a 3500 donor w 70K miles that I've sold 1300 in parts. If I had got it local it would have been a 1850 donor

Its a roadster floppy windows and a PITA top are all that you can expect

EVERY car has its compromises... some more than others. For me the 818 fits a niche that I hadn't covered with my other 10 cars!

[THE ITALIAN]

The 818 will never have the same creature comforts as your BMW and will not replace a daily driver, nor was it intended to.

I agree.

F5 builds race cars, they perform and ride like race cars, you are already outside your needs when you talk about these negatives.
You can change anything on these cars to fit your needs.
I would go ride or drive any race car before making your decision, the feel is very different, you give up that soft feel for a rock hard ride you won't get in the BMW.
F5's are so fast on a track for so less money. You can soften the ride, but
"Bare bones" has a price, but also benefits if it is what you seek. Some say my roadster rides like a go kart, but when we get into the turns they say "holy $*&^" that is incredible !

[Erik W. Treves]

Harsh! I believe someone else has removed this bar. They asked FFR, and it isn't considered vital or something, you'll have to search the build threads.


wasn't trying to be Harsh...he stated that it was a deal breaker.... so I was agreeing with him if that is the case... Dan removed his. If he is willing to remove it IMO then it wouldn't be a deal breaker...it would be on the list of modifications to be done. I agree with your second point...you need to set your expectations in the world of reality....this car as well as the Cobra are in the same class as a 4-wheeled motorcycle. Wayne tuned up a 135i at the shop and it is a ROCKET and drive soooo nice....trying to figure out how to add one of those to my collection!

[longislandwrx]

Wayne tuned up a 135i at the shop and it is a ROCKET and drive soooo nice....trying to figure out how to add one of those to my collection!

+1

The guy that did my mortgage has one, intakes, IC, downpipes, exhaust meth and tune. It is a fearsome beast.

[mavisky]

It really sounds like you want a Lotus Elise or Exige with more horsepower. Why not just go that route and save yourself all the building and custom fabrication?

[Speedy G]

Because I tend to take them all apart and modify them, so why not build it my way from the start. The 135i is still intact because my wrangler is currently taking the grunt of my creative time.

My cousin did all the mods on his 135i, and you can really tell, it's a lot faster, his brother modified his M5 and my uncle has a real beastly S65 AMG, modified. Out of all those cars, I'd stay with my 135i convertible because it's a convertible. In any case, the only German car where I've felt it was raw enough to be really exciting was a 911 turbo. That thing feels like it jumps when it launches, and it takes turns like a tron light cycle. I'd love to have one, but here they go for over USD150k. Now to clarify, some of you guys are suggesting I drop the project because I own a 135i. I don't want another BMW, as I said, it's too well behaved. I want something closer to a racecar, but some creature comforts are necessary to get me to buy it. So, I'm actually looking for solutions to my 3 issues.

1) Cool so someone deleted the crossbar, any excessive flex in turns? Does it creek? Btw, I don't know if you guys heard about the discussion Musk had with the first Tesla designers. They had a similar issue. Musk wanted the door sill to be lower without losing stiffness. It was one of the reasons for going overbudget. I'd love to see the solidworks stress analysis to see how much incidence the crossbar has. Maybe it could be relocated without losing too much stiffness.

1a) It looks like nobody liked the idea of a seat riser over the crossbar? I'm going to start looking for something that could work, or start designing.

2) Any comments on the viability of a T top? To me right now, a t-top looks like it's just a bit of fiberglass attached to the rear roll bar and the windshield frame. A rear window like the one on the soft top would be cool, and it could seal by sitting on top of the rear fiberglass. Something like on a Ferrari 458 spyder, but t-top:

http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2012-ferrari-458-spider-first-drive

2a) Does it look like windows would fit in the door with the window rack, or would removable lexan/plexi pannels be the only other option?

3) I'm going to start looking for the parts by themselves and do the math. I'm sure summit has most of the parts, but maybe I can get similar stuff locally. After all, it takes a year to get the kit, right? One thing that sucks about not using a donor is that I'd like ABS on the car. It sounds like ABS will need to become an "extra" to be dealt with later.

4) The extras are going to take a while... Like frank said, maybe I'll start with a very low boost setting, like 4psi.

[Xusia]

I'm sure one of the guys building a car would sell you their ABS unit. I'd offer, but I plan to use mine.

[Speedy G]

Mmm... I don't thing that will work. The subie ABS system depends on the ECU, doesn't it? The only standalone ABS system I know about (there could be others), is on ~2004 mustangs. Anybody know of any others?

[posthaste]

I'm having a few issues with the 818. I really think these need to be solved for the car to be a viable replacement for my 135i. The problems really aren't that easy to solve:

1) The crossbar in front of the seat is just lame. It's a deal breaker. My car needs to have seats that slide and lift for a 5'2" driver and also adjust for a 5'11" driver. This is really is a minimum in terms of creature comforts, and the seat frame can't weigh more than a couple of pounds. I'm thinking that a seat frame that raises the seat over the crossbar could be a viable solution.

2) Windows - Convertibles are nice, hard tops are more practical, but no windows is just unacceptable. It rains all the time where I live at the drop of a dime. I need to be able to close the cockpit and quickly. I love the look of the convertible, but zip windows just don't fit the look of the car. I'm thinking a targa top may be the easiest thing to build and have glass windows seal properly. The rear roll bar is perfect for it. Ok, all this isn't light, but it makes the car 10x more of a daily driver.

3) I have a problem buying a donor for USD10k (where i live), when out of the major parts needed for the kit, I'll only be using the following:

• Front spindles
• Rear spindles
• Steering rack, tie rod ends
• Pedal box and throttle pedal
• Master brake cylinder
• Rear toe links, and CV joints
• front seat belts, and gauge pod
• Rear seat belts
• Fuel pump
• Radiator
• Door hinges, rear w/ latches,strikers, and inside door handles
• Side view mirrors, left and right
• Rear view mirror

Is that really worth 10k? Most of those parts are pretty generic. Remember, I'll be using a VW engine. Either a high revving 1.8T (8500RPM) or a 3.2T VR6. The idea is to have around ~240hp as a minimum (call it valet mode), 300whp as the regular power output, and 400whp either as a track program or scramble mode (yup, button on the steering wheel).

4) Cost - The original kit is actually really cheap. But I'd like a CAN bus harness ($$), standalone ECU ($$), racelogic traction control($$), cool seats, cool dash, touchscreen center console, high end sound.

Comments?

Speedy G

Hey there Speedy, I'm not usually in the 818 forum being that I'm currently building a GTM, however I was moonlighting here in the 818 forum out of dirty curiosity and stumbled across your post.
Unlike some of the other fellas who just called party over, I will suggest something that I think all kit car builders need to take into account:

Although you need to stick to keeping the kit safe, it's a KIT CAR, if you don't like something, or you feel there should be something different then feel free to make it so.
Build it how you want it.
This is not a 'do not deviate from the design' item.
The very best part of ffr kits are in the customization there of.

Car is too narrow? Add a foot in width. Don't like the top? Build one. Then also market that because if you like that, I bet someone else here does too. (just make sure you register as a vendor with the forum;))

Feel free to throw 50% of 'reason' out the window and use 'will it be legal and work?' as the only yard stick past your wallet.
Hey man, it's YOUR dream, do it the way you see fit.
"it's not ment to be a bmw", sure, it's not, but you can upgrade your interior, you can put in some creature comforts (or a lot, no one is dictating what you can't do there).

In the GTM forum I've seen everything from added width to the entire car, to twin mirror turbos on ls7's to custom high end wood dash panels, custom intakes, fuel setups, the sky is literally the limit.
The worth is all in the wallet of the builder.

The point is, ffr kits aren't so much an 'off the rack suit, ready to go' as much as they are 'ready to be tailored to fit your needs exactly, so get to work'.

I hope that this is some way helpful to you, I know it's a big decision;)

[Mike N]

Just a thought but if you read the current forum front page the 2014 build slots are virtually completely sold out so you won't be getting an 818 until 2015 unless you already ordered. A year from now there will be a huge amount of knowledge base on these cars (cross brace removal) plus a very good chance that a targa or hardtop with real windows will have been engineered and built by one of the hugely talented and creative owners we have hanging around here. Bottom line I would get your deposit in as soon as possible ;)

[Speedy G]

Now that' s what I'm talking about, some motivation!

I'm going to start to look for subaru part replacements locally. That way when the kit gets here I'll be ready to start building. The advantage of not having a donor is that you don' t have to take it appart and clean it!

[tripntx]

Top, windows, and Air Conditioning is what I desire. TX Gulf Coast has unbearably high humidity most of the year, and we have frequent showers all the time.

Functional soft top is fine, just need windows to keep out mosquitos and rain, plus AC to allow this car to be driven more than just early morning.

[2FAST4U]

Based on your first post, I think the 818 isn't for you...

Yep, pretty obvious

[Speedy G]

Whatever, I ordered it.

[Xusia]

Awesome! I wish you the best of luck in your build.

[Movieman]

Just reading through this and thought I'd add my 3 cents: I think people sometimes need to take a mental step back and think about what they really want from any vechicle.
One says he wants all the bennies of a daily driver. Ok, I know people that drive motorcycles as daily drivers and they don't have any windows of a roof.
Also I see these kits as "starting points".. The basics at a reasonable price that allows talented and or stubborn people to build the machine that suits them without paying for all those things you'd
get on a "finished" vechicle that might not be what you want.
As to that bar in front of the seat, if it's a problem, take it out.
Do what you want that will make you happy but also realise that your needs may be different than others.
Make it "your" car so that every day when you walk out the door you smile at what YOU built.
That to me is the brilliance of FFR in all of their models.
They make the basic platform that people can take to build the car that they'd always dreamed of.

[Frank818]

Whatever, I ordered it.

YES SIR!! Welcome aboard! :)

[Speedy G]

Exactly, it's MY 818. It's really great that FFR got the thing to perform that well and the weight of 818kg is really commendable. However, for me to be able to drive my car, I need to deal with daily rain, so I'm building a roof... eventually. The t-top will come later, as well as all the other goodies. A/C, sure, it's just a few pounds worth. Active electric suspension, why not. Hydraulic adjustable height suspension, why not? So it doesn't perform like an 818 anymore? So what, I can still kick any Ferrari's *** at this altitude.

Obviously my first priority is to get the thing built and registered however I can, even if it's with a mazda motor.