Xusia's Build Thread - Building an 818S for Dummies

[Xusia]

Uh-oh. Guess what day it was. Guess what day it was!

D E L I V E R Y _ D A Y ! ! !

24338

So I guess that means I can't/shouldn't delay starting my build thread any longer. It's crunch time at work right now, but after Friday, I'm on vacation until January 2, and I plan to work on the car most of those days, so more to come.

I decided to title this thread after the "Dummies" series of books, since I have no real mechanical, engineering, or fabricating aptitude and am therefore essentially a novice at this. Part of what I hope to show, is that you need not have the aforementioned skills to build this kit. At times, those (and other) areas of expertise will be needed; no doubt. My plan is to first seek assistance from sympathetic friends/acquaintances/contacts when/where I can, and engage the services of paid professionals when necessary. Obviously, I'll be spending more money for a similar result than those who possess the skills I lack (and I'm keeping a detailed accounting to prove it!), but the point for me is more to show others they too can accomplish this - and to give them a how-to guide along with a realistic idea of the added costs/areas.

So to all of you reading this who may be wondering if you can do this - those of you who want to build your own car, but have doubts if you could actually accomplish it - stay tuned. Besides how I decide to [sometimes foolishly] tackle certain problems, I'll also be sharing the unique challenges I run into as a novice. I hope it allows other novices to see around some corners and into some blind spots, and ultimate inspires them to build the car of their dreams...

[waruaki]

Congratulations Brian.

[Canadian818]

Congrats! Not many people are willing to share their "head scratching moments", but a lot of us would probably feel better knowing that others struggled too. I too was hoping to work on my car during the holidays, but it doesn't look like it'll make it here by tuesday. Whats your chassis number and production date?

[metalmaker12]

Nice

[wallace18]

Congrats! Let the fun begin and best of luck.

[Frank818]

Uh-oh. Guess what day it was. Guess what day it was!

Hump day!!! :D

Finally starting your build! And yes, of course you can do it! And it will be a great build!

So what's your first step into it?

[Rasmus]

Looking forward to it.

Guess what day it is? Build day.

[Mechie3]

Congrats! Not many people are willing to share their "head scratching moments"

There's a few head scratching moments in my time lapse videos. It's the head banging moments where I turn off the camera. ;)

[Emefef]

Awesome - I'm looking forward to this one. I keep thinking it shouldn't be too difficult, then I see what some of the other builders have done when they encounter a challenge, and the skills required to overcome that challenge. I've done lots of minor repairs, and usually I sit in my office and research it to death before I try anything...Also done a lot with my bikes, including assembling one from the frame up. That's why I'm hopeful that since the build is mostly (or seems to be) assembly, anyone with basic skills should be able to do it, and at least know when they need help.
It will be a while before I can even hope to build one (no place practical to build), so until then I'll have to learn from everyone else - experts and novices. Your first post was already insirational - Good Luck!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It might be delivery day for you, but it's my birthday. Good luck on your build.
Bob

[Mechie3]

Awesome - I'm looking forward to this one. I keep thinking it shouldn't be too difficult, then I see what some of the other builders have done when they encounter a challenge, and the skills required to overcome that challenge.

Keep in mind these two things: A lot of the initial problems have been fixed. Some of us have access to tools/machines and we do things not because they're required, but because we can. Sort of the engineers motto of "If it's not broken, fix it".


It might be delivery day for you, but it's my birthday. Good luck on you build.
Bob

Happy Birthday!

[Frank818]

It might be delivery day for you, but it's my birthday. Good luck on you build.
Bob

Sorry I don't have a present, but at least I can tell you Happy Bday! Which I just did, now. :)

[Frank818]

Some of us have access to tools/machines

Hum, like a CNC machine, hum. :)

[Xusia]

Congrats! Not many people are willing to share their "head scratching moments", but a lot of us would probably feel better knowing that others struggled too. I too was hoping to work on my car during the holidays, but it doesn't look like it'll make it here by tuesday. Whats your chassis number and production date?

#77, with a Nov 20 production date. a LOT of rather unusual things ensued to produce the lengthy delivery delay.


...That's why I'm hopeful that since the build is mostly (or seems to be) assembly, anyone with basic skills should be able to do it...

That's exactly what I'm about to find out! :)

[flynntuna]

Congrats, like you I'm a novice to the car building world. This community has proven to be genuinely interested in your success.

[68GT500MAN]

Congratulations on the safe delivery. This should be a great tool for those wondering if they can take on a project like this.
Doug

[Frank818]

That's exactly what I'm about to find out! :)

Xusia, let us know once you get to the LCAs if you have the same issues as 508's stroker's build.

[waruaki]

How is your list of backordered parts? I'm still missing several key components after four weeks.

[Xusia]

I won't be able to even get to the inventory until Saturday at the earliest.

[RM1SepEx]

just use the early build threads as suggestions, as Craig said, many of our issues have been fixed... you will be just fine

[svanlare]

I've not attempted anything this size before in terms of garage projects, so I love the title of the thread as I fit into that same classification.

Good time for me to say this, I am highly appreciative of all the build threads; there is a huge wealth of knowledge that has already made the process easier for me.

[FFR-ADV]

Congratulations!

Merry Christmas, Happy Nwe Year & Have fun on vacation!

[Xusia]

I completed the box inventory yesterday (3 hours worth and more than a couple head scratches), and the chassis inventory today. The following were back-ordered:

Headlight buckets
Shocks (just the shocks themselves)
Shifter & cables
Radiator hose adapter set w/clamps
fuel cap


I'm pretty sure these are missing:

Headlight mount bracket
3/4" plastic end caps (I'm going to look for these again)
Engine cover block-off (vertical & bottom/bend)
Under battery tray cover
Rear hood support


And I'm certain these are missing:

Radiator top mount (both L & R)
Rear deck pin mount
1 small CV strap & 1 large CV strap (oddly, I got 3 of each rather than 4)


I plan to contact FFR about the stuff I'm certain is missing. Should I mention the other stuff? I'm happy to wait and see if I made a mistake, but I don't know if there is a limited time frame to report such things.

On the positive side, having the boxes numbered, and in the general order you will need the parts is a very nice touch. Thanks Factory Five! ;)

Also today, we removed the body panels and stored them under the house, and started on the aluminum panels. Here's a short video for my novice friends. While a very simple issue, it highlights the kinds of things you run into, and why assembling a kit isn't exactly "bolt-on by numbers." Here's a link to the video:

https://plus.google.com/107272488473870379365/posts/KHNMDuMjDk3

And finally, a question for those that are more done with their kits: How are the gaps (indicated by arrows) in the pic below dealt with? PLEASE tell me they aren't just left open...

24583

[wallace18]

Use black silicone sealer for all gaps as per manual.

[RM1SepEx]

the tube caps are pre installed now
the radiator top mounts come from the donor

[Frank818]

I'm happy to wait and see if I made a mistake, but I don't know if there is a limited time frame to report such things.

I think there is. I believe it's on the papers you got by mail after you placed your $1k deposit.

[Xusia]

Use black silicone sealer for all gaps as per manual.

OK, good. Haven't read that far then. The "Required Supplies" section only lists silicone and does not specify a color.


the tube caps are pre installed now
the radiator top mounts come from the donor

Nope. The caps were definitely not pre-installed on my frame.

As for the radiator top mounts, the inventory sheets lists them, and there is a check mark next to them. Based on this, I have to assume it's a part supplied by FFR, and not from the donor. I will call them and find out.

[Mechie3]

The "Required Supplies" section only lists silicone and does not specify a color.


I believe it was hot pink. Also, use a liberal amount, don't be afraid to let it show. ;)



As for the radiator top mounts, the inventory sheets lists them, and there is a check mark next to them. Based on this, I have to assume it's a part supplied by FFR, and not from the donor. I will call them and find out.

Interesting. When I made my mounts, I had to raise them up with a 1/2" spacer after raising the bottom of the radiator. I wonder if they finally fixed the radiator height issue and now the stock mounts don't work so they supply them?

[Xusia]

I just got off the phone with FFR, and thought I'd clarify a few things for folks:

The 2" end caps are pre-installed. The 3/4" ones are not.
The radiator top mounts aren't the actual radiator mounts. They are the bars that support the top of the nose piece - the ones with the drilled holes. I have those, but identified them as the nose mounts. So I guess I'm missing those...


Also, and this bears pointing out because all customer service is NOT created equal, FFR was very helpful and didn't give me any hassles. They are sending me some pics to help identify parts (in the cases where I wasn't sure). It was a good experience. :)

[Xusia]

I don't like the way this panel fits:

24725

I'm considering welding a steel panel in this location, and cutting the aluminum panel down:

24726

Will this cause any issues down the road in the build?

[AZPete]

I don't see any problem as long as your lower control arm fits on the mounts without the bolts hitting the panel. Just curious, why the steel panel?

[Xusia]

Steel because it can be welded to the frame. It won't be very thick, and I'm not overly concerned about adding weight.

As for why the panel at all, it's because the way that panel fits is just wonky. The suspension mount makes it bow inward (toward the cockpit), and I'm concerned about the weather seal. I just don't like the idea of using silicone to seal bridge-type gaps (sandwiched between 2 pieces of metal is fine) - it just doesn't look as good, and I don't think it works as good.

[RM1SepEx]

I don't have 2 in caps

[Xusia]

I'm not sure what you mean Dan.

[RM1SepEx]

There are no 2 inch caps in my kit, only the 1 inch ones...

There will be quite a few areas where silicone will be filling a small space or gap, get used to it

welding materials together with such different thicknesses may be a problem for you. Is your frame powder coated? Is it worth messing it up to weld in a panel? If you don't like that panel's fit buy a sheet of aluminum and make up a new one, it cuts easy!

[metalmaker12]

Ditto, it is a small issue of many more, I would put it on and move on. The bottom battery tray keeps all the stuff out anyway.

[wallace18]

Steel because it can be welded to the frame. It won't be very thick, and I'm not overly concerned about adding weight.

As for why the panel at all, it's because the way that panel fits is just wonky. The suspension mount makes it bow inward (toward the cockpit), and I'm concerned about the weather seal. I just don't like the idea of using silicone to seal bridge-type gaps (sandwiched between 2 pieces of metal is fine) - it just doesn't look as good, and I don't think it works as good.

You will be surprised what silicone can seal, if you get the right stuff. Most of these panels are out of site when car is done. Just my 2 cents worth.

[GUNS]

Congrats on the build! I'm in the same boat as you as far as ability goes, which is probably why my build is taking considerably longer than others. With that being said, my advice to you is to treat each phase of the build as a learning process. Take your time and avoid the temptation to cut corners to finish quicker. You will make mistakes and will have to fix said mistakes. Don't get frustrated, use the resources here and at FFR to help you along. Most of all, have fun. I've been having a blast building mine, even with the frustrations. Good luck!

[Xusia]

I checked out my chassis, and I also do not have the 2" caps. I guess they just aren't using those any more?

Thanks for the comments guys. As far as the welding goes, I can't do any of that. My Father-in-law on the other hand is an certified expert (literally). This stuff is child's play for him, and he doesn't mind helping me out - he loves building stuff. So I figure why not make it better if I can?

GUNS, I'm definitely not in any kind of a rush, nor am I frustrated. My desire is to build it right. I plan to keep it, so I want to do what I can at each stage to ensure it's built well and will last.

[Xusia]

Other than through the pre-cut openings, are there any areas where something passes through the front firewall? Did anyone cut their own hole, and if so, what was it for?

[waruaki]

Throttle cable and two for brake lines as we mounted our proportioning valve under the dash. Depending on the year of your donor you may not need to drill for the throttle cable.


24741

[AZPete]

Several aluminum panels on the front firewall are overlapped in the manual and one triangle panel on the right side is recessed. With some planning and cutting it's possible to have all panels flush. This shot of the right side shows how I got my panels flush. Will it show? Only if someone looks very carefully under the hood, but I'll know.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/LCRrightrear.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/LCRrightrear.jpg.html)

[Xusia]

I've been at my in-laws most of this week, and have been working on various things. I've got some videos to share, but that will have to wait until I get home and have some time.

Progress made so far:

Finished steering rack disassembly and painted all parts
Painted suspension mounting bolts & nuts
Mocked up and cut parts for enhancing the strength of the suspension mounting brackets (thanks for the idea Chad! - video pending)
Mocked up panels for modified firewall (previously discussed in this thread - video pending)
Separated rear wheel hubs & dust shields, sandblasted and prepped for painting
Drilled front aluminum LCAs, and painted steel shock mounts
Cleaned up aluminum door pulls and rear transmission plate (one side on all parts looked good; the other side, not so much)
Gutted and cleaned front outer CVs (video pending)
Marked front aluminum for drilling



To be done in the next few days:

Weld steering pinion to remove slop
Cut panels for modified firewall
Weld modified firewall in place
Weld suspension mounting bracket pieces
Touch up chassis paint (i.e. weld spots, etc.)
Paint rear wheel hub parts and a ton of misc FFR supplied steel parts
Drill front aluminum
Paint front aluminum with SC-1000 sound & heat insulating paint (basically identical to Lizard Skin, but a lot less $$)
Mount front aluminum
Sand crappy first paint attempt off brake caliper parts, and re-paint


I'm sure there's some things I'm forgetting. They will come up later...

A note for all the novices watching this thread: Everything is taking longer than I want it to. I'm not in a rush, but I did have a plan and I've had to come to terms with the fact that my plan just isn't realistic. Case in point: I have 12 days off for the holidays and had the goal of getting to the roller stage. Factor out some days for Christmas, and that still left me with 8-9 days. I thought that was fairly realistic. HA! First the aluminum panels just didn't fit to my liking (I'm a bit OCD/anal/whatever-you-want-call-it), the paint on the brake parts didn't come out right and cold weather created problems, my front tires are back ordered, so are my shocks, I decided to modify my frame, some other family stuff came up, blah, blah, blah. You get the idea. Bottom line is that unless you have experience with this sort of thing, it's very likely going to take you more time than you think.

Finally a note on tools: I've decided to use this project as an excuse to buy some tools I wanted, as well as some I thought would just ease my frustration level. Here's my thoughts so far:

Impact Wrench - Best. Purchase. Ever. If you don't have one, plan on getting one.
Rivet Spacing Tool - probably wouldn't buy it if I had to do it over. It's actually kind of wonky to use and I think using elastic (as others have suggested) is easier and delivers the same result. Save your money.
Sand Blast Cabinet - I didn't actually buy one, since I have one available to me, but others have and I have used the one at my disposal a TON. Seriously worth considering, because it makes donor part clean up a snap.



In the future I'll provide my thoughts on the Air Riveter, HVLP Paint Sprayer, and some other stuff.

[Frank818]

Impact Wrench - Best. Purchase. Ever. If you don't have one, plan on getting one.

Why?

[Xusia]

Makes taking the donor apart much easier. It was constantly buy my side and being used.

I should add, with it you will need a set of deep impact sockets.

[Frank818]

Ok so mostly for disassembling, not assembling.

[Joseph]

I am obviously not Xusia but I saw your question why someone would want an impact wrench. My personal experience has been that buying an impact wrench has been a great help. I have physical problems and I have found that my cordless Dewalt impact wrench has been a great help. I can disassemble things in a fraction of the time it would take me using just my socket wrench. I have been removing rusty nuts that apparently had been tightened by someone else with an impact wrench or else they must be a body builder. I would not be without my impact wrench now that I have seen the amound of labor it saves me, not to mention the time I save. Not mentioned was the purchase of a variable speed cordless drill, I bought one of those also, another great tool. I grew up with everyting involving wood being nailed, everything is screwed now. Just my opinion.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My most helpful tool. Harbor freight 4 1/2" angle grinder.
http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-4-1-2-half-inch-angle-grinder-91223.html
with metal cutoff wheel and wire brush cups.
I thought it would just be used during disassembly and clean up. Using it now to clean up welds and trim parts to fit.
Best $22 buck I've spent on this project.
Bob

[Xusia]

...I can disassemble things in a fraction of the time it would take me using just my socket wrench. I have been removing rusty nuts that apparently had been tightened by someone else with an impact wrench or else they must be a body builder. I would not be without my impact wrench now that I have seen the amound of labor it saves me, not to mention the time I save...

EXACTLY!


My most helpful tool. Harbor freight 4 1/2" angle grinder.
http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-4-1-2-half-inch-angle-grinder-91223.html
with metal cutoff wheel and wire brush cups.
I thought it would just be used during disassembly and clean up. Using it now to clean up welds and trim parts to fit.
Best $22 buck I've spent on this project.
Bob

I didn't buy one of these, but I have several at my disposal. They are very useful. I used the air powered angle grinder I do own to cut the front of the car off to take the engine out.

[Xusia]

Making some progress, but holiday related delays (read: shops not open) upset my previous plan:

Weld steering pinion to remove slop - DONE
Cut panels for modified firewall - Next weekend
Weld modified firewall in place - Next weekend
Weld suspension mounting bracket pieces - DONE
Touch up chassis paint (i.e. weld spots, etc.) - DONE
Paint rear wheel hub parts and a ton of misc FFR supplied steel parts - DONE (left them drying at my in-laws, will need to pick up next weekend)
Drill front aluminum - Pending
Paint front aluminum with SC-1000 sound & heat insulating paint (basically identical to Lizard Skin, but a lot less $$) - Pending
Mount front aluminum - After next weekend
Sand crappy first paint attempt off brake caliper parts, and re-paint - Pending


In addition I got the steering rack back together, screwed the ball joints in the upper control arms, and pondered the installation of the lower shock mounts to my aluminum LCAs.

The steering rack was a bit more trouble to get back together than I thought it would be. I somehow missed a ring clip on the rack rod which made it not want to slide into the rack body. I also mistakenly thought the lower bearing for the pinion shaft needed to be pressed into the pinion body and wasted a lot of time trying to figure it out. But I did get it all done.

For those who are considering or planning a future 818 build, there are 2 ways to depower the steering rack. The "quick" way is basically just removing the hoses, draining the fluid, closing off the inlets/outlets, etc. It's easy because you don't have to take anything apart. BUT, this method leaves the seal on the rack rod in place, the friction from which makes the rack rod a bit more difficult to move (some might consider this desirable - kind of a built in steering stabilizer - but I do not). This method also does not address the inherent pinion gear "slop," which is IMO undesirable in terms of steering feedback.

The more difficult method involves taking the rack and pinion assembly apart so that the the rack rod seal can be removed, the valve body can be removed from the pinion shaft, and the pinion slop can be fixed. Having just gone through this, my feedback is that taking it apart is really not that much more difficult. In fact, it's actually pretty easy, it's just more time consuming. But comparing the rack action before and after leaves me with no doubt I chose the correct method for me. The rack rod moves very easily by hand, turning the pinion with ease. Vice versa, it's easy to turn the pinion by hand and move the rack rod. With the seal still in place it was far more difficult to do by hand, but still not bad with a bit of leverage (i.e. vice grips, steering wheel, etc.). The ease with which it moves is astonishing, and should translate to easy steering effort, with very good feedback - exactly what I want!

QUESTION regarding the front upper control arms: The diagram shows the grease fittings pointing up, but some pics show them pointing down. I know a lot of you have mounted them pointing down. My concern is that mounting them with the grease fittings down changes the angle of that part of the assembly. Does this matter?

QUESTION regarding the front LCAs: My donor (2003 WRX) had the stamped steel LCAs, but I bought the aluminum ones. The shock mount brackets that you need to attach to them look the same, as do the bolts, but the manual is a bit unclear on the nuts. The steel ones use an FFR made nut bracket, and for the aluminum one it says to use lock nuts. There is no picture, but I assume the lock nuts they are referring to are not the same as the nut bracket I have. Can anyone confirm this?

Tool review for the night: Harbor Freight Snap Ring Pliers. Verdict: Junk! Get a decent set from somewhere else. Anywhere else. :(

Lastly, I know a lot of discussion has been made about the powder coating. My frame came in similar condition to others with easily visible splatter (which can't be cleaned up with a wash, much less sand blasting - it requires scraping) that was powder coated over. For $400, I think expecting a top quality job is unrealistic, and in the end, much of the frame is hidden. Given that, I think it's worth $400 from a protection stand point (rust & corrosion prevention). On the other hand, if you really want a nice looking frame to show off, you should probably get it without the powder coating and do it yourself. Just be warned you'll have plenty of prep work to do! :)

[DruOdil]

I like your steering rack mod. I have an 06 is it the same as yours? What did you weld?
Dru

[Xusia]

Thanks Dru! The 2006-2007 are different and slightly more difficult when it came to fixing the slop (removing the piston seal was still easy). There was a whole thread on depowering the steering rack, and at post #71 (link below) they start discussing removing the 2006-2007 steering pinion slop. In the end it was able to be welded, but it was a real chore and required some skill. An alternate solution to fix the slop was to fill the gap with epoxy. If it were me, I'd probably go the epoxy route on a 2006 rack.

Here's the link: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5966-De-powering-the-steering-rack-plus-more-to-come-on-rebuilding-wrx-parts&p=95078&viewfull=1#post95078

[Mechie3]

On the 06, the upper bearing is not actually a bearing. It appears that they inner race is machined as part of the pinion and can't be pressed off. That makes welding it difficult, thus I epoxied mine.

I bought HF snap ring pliers years ago. Total Crap. I got channel lock ones for xmas that are much much nicer.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308959_200308959?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Hand%20Tools-_-Pliers-_-558644&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=558644&gclid=CM-plcCU2LsCFcpDMgodECQAXA

[DruOdil]

On the 06, the upper bearing is not actually a bearing. It appears that they inner race is machined as part of the pinion and can't be pressed off. That makes welding it difficult, thus I epoxied mine.

I bought HF snap ring pliers years ago. Total Crap. I got channel lock ones for xmas that are much much nicer.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308959_200308959?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Hand%20Tools-_-Pliers-_-558644&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=558644&gclid=CM-plcCU2LsCFcpDMgodECQAXA

I would also like to epoxy mine. Where exactly did you place the epoxy?
Dru

[RM1SepEx]

QUESTION regarding the front upper control arms: The diagram shows the grease fittings pointing up, but some pics show them pointing down. I know a lot of you have mounted them pointing down. My concern is that mounting them with the grease fittings down changes the angle of that part of the assembly. Does this matter?

No, strictly personal preference... the geometry is the same either way as it is from center of pivot to center of ball joint pivot dimensions used in the calculations (been discussed many times before)

[Mechie3]

I would also like to epoxy mine. Where exactly did you place the epoxy?
Dru

Put it in a syringe and just filled up the spool valve. There's picturs somewhere where Freds filled his with epoxy then sent it to me to cut in half with a mill. The epoxy filled quite well.

[metalmaker12]

On the 06, the upper bearing is not actually a bearing. It appears that they inner race is machined as part of the pinion and can't be pressed off. That makes welding it difficult, thus I epoxied mine.

I bought HF snap ring pliers years ago. Total Crap. I got channel lock ones for xmas that are much much nicer.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308959_200308959?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Hand%20Tools-_-Pliers-_-558644&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=558644&gclid=CM-plcCU2LsCFcpDMgodECQAXA

I welded my 02 pinion bearing, which is a different style and easier to weld. I also welded a 2006 for Dan as a trial, it was hard since the race is plastic, expoxy should work well as others have done. To be honest I don't really notice that much of a difference on this lite car with the slop.

[Xusia]

Chris, I thought you welded yours. When did you get a chance to drive one with the slop?

[mrvwcastner]

Remember to call on me just an hour north if you cannot find a solution to something. The shop I use is tool heaven. I might be headed your way this next week to pick up a Featherlight trailer & a mill. BTW I think there are 2 unused extra sand blasting cabinets if you want any donations, might be an extra parts washer too I just got a nice new $1200 unit. As you saw I'm waiting for the thermoplastic body before I start my build. I bought something else to hold me over I don't want to talk about on here, but my Miata comes apart tomorrow being sold in pieces.

[Xusia]

Stop by if you can! I'd love to chat in person. Frame is in Roseburg at the moment, but will be back Sat or Sun.

Oh, and I'd take any or all of those tool donations! Thank you, very much. :)

[Xusia]

With the frame and many of my newly painted parts out of town, I worked on what I could:

Sanded crappy spray can paint job on brake parts
Painted brake parts using high quality paint and $10 Harbor Freight HVLP paint sprayer (review pending on how it turns out)
Finished attaching shock mount to LCAs
Assembled shocks (only to find I am missing the ring clips - no worries, they aren't critical at the moment)
Cleaned up the garage


Not exactly a ton accomplished over the last couple days, but it's what I felt like doing!

Oh, and I found a great use for some of that construction paper FFR uses as packing (not knocking them; it's just kinda funny...)"
24855

A homemade painting booth!! :D

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Zusia
The brake parts look good (best I can tell from the photo). What kind and color paint are you using.
I have 2 of the yellow light stands that I hang parts from after the HF lights fail. (5 to 10 days)
Bob

[metalmaker12]

Chris, I thought you welded yours. When did you get a chance to drive one with the slop?

I have driven depowered subies not welded, and what I was saying on this car being so lite it might not even be noticeable.

[Xusia]

Hi Zusia
The brake parts look good (best I can tell from the photo). What kind and color paint are you using.
I have 2 of the yellow light stands that I hang parts from after the HF lights fail. (5 to 10 days)
Bob

Hey Bob, I wanted to post some pics of the brakes, but thought I'd wait until they are dry and I have some better light. I think they are going to come out awesome looking!

The paint brand is Limco, and the color is Subaru Rally Blue.


I have driven depowered subies not welded, and what I was saying on this car being so lite it might not even be noticeable.

Gotcha. You are probably right. I'm just that kind of person - you know, the kind that would be bothered knowing it exists even if it wasn't noticeable. It's a curse; and part of the reason I'm not making progress as fast as I'd like... :(

[Erik W. Treves]

you won't notice it at all not welded up...the steering is so light and snappy now...if you could notice it I would be VERY surprised.

[tmoretta]

Heck, I can easily turn my '02 rack's input shaft by hand. I can't imagine it would be worth all the trouble of taking the steering rack apart.

[Xusia]

Got busy and didn't post yesterday. Did some more donor tear down - all done now except for the wiring harness. Woo Hoo!

Finished painting the brakes, and I'm very pleased with the result ($10 Harbor Freight Paint Sprayer FTW!):
24904

I mixed up a bit more paint than I needed, so I got creative:
2490524906
Yellow is such a boring color...

For those that are considering doing their own, I used 4oz of paint (+hardener, +reducer) for all 4 calipers and brackets. Now, what to do with the 12oz I have left!

Today's tool review is the Harbor Freight 20oz gravity feed HVLP Paint Spray Gun (I gave it away above): AWESOME! Tool seems well made, and performs well. I mean, if I can use it and good results, anyone should be able to!

[Xusia]

As promised, some videos showing the frame modifications for strengthening the suspension mounting points. Thanks Chad!

For your viewing pleasure:
https://plus.google.com/107272488473870379365/posts/728JCDkq2uK

[Frank818]

For those who are considering or planning a future 818 build, there are 2 ways to depower the steering rack. The "quick" way is basically just removing the hoses, draining the fluid, closing off the inlets/outlets, etc. It's easy because you don't have to take anything apart. BUT, this method leaves the seal on the rack rod in place, the friction from which makes the rack rod a bit more difficult to move (some might consider this desirable - kind of a built in steering stabilizer - but I do not). This method also does not address the inherent pinion gear "slop," which is IMO undesirable in terms of steering feedback.

The more difficult method involves taking the rack and pinion assembly apart so that the the rack rod seal can be removed, the valve body can be removed from the pinion shaft, and the pinion slop can be fixed. Having just gone through this, my feedback is that taking it apart is really not that much more difficult. In fact, it's actually pretty easy, it's just more time consuming. But comparing the rack action before and after leaves me with no doubt I chose the correct method for me. The rack rod moves very easily by hand, turning the pinion with ease. Vice versa, it's easy to turn the pinion by hand and move the rack rod. With the seal still in place it was far more difficult to do by hand, but still not bad with a bit of leverage (i.e. vice grips, steering wheel, etc.). The ease with which it moves is astonishing, and should translate to easy steering effort, with very good feedback - exactly what I want!

Xusia, can you elaborate more on the benefits/drawbacks of these techniques? Erik didn't do the 2nd technique and says the steering is freakin' awesome, so how can it be better than "freakin' awesome"? :)

[Oppenheimer]

I believe that would be "Totally Freakin' Awesome".

[Xusia]

LOL - I guess that's all relative. The crux of the difference is the inherent resistance/ease of rack movement. It moves easier doing what I did, but Erik says you won't notice the difference. Given the leverage the steering wheel has, that may well be true, and He and Wayne have a lot of experience so I tend to believe them. But I'm the kind of person that it would still bother me just knowing it was there, even if I couldn't notice it. Also, to ME, taking it apart and doing what I did is the "proper" way. Since I intend to own this car a long time, I don't want to feel like I'm taking any shortcuts (again, because just knowing I took a shortcut would bother me). In the end, would it matter? Maybe not. Probably not. It's just how I am choosing to build my car.

All that said, this really isn't that big of a deal Frank - either way. You could choose to do the quick method like Erik. If you decide you aren't happy, it's easy enough to take the steering rack off and do what I did; at any point. On the other hand, taking it apart really isn't that difficult, so you could just do it and not worry about the little bit of added time. Now that I've done it, I think I could take the rack apart, do the mod, and reassemble it in 2-3 hours. So really, no big deal either way.

I hope this helps. :)

[Frank818]

Is it possible the difference between the 2 techniques can be noticed if you have a worn out seal or steering rack or something? I don't even know if that seal can go bad anyway.

I'm not thinking much about the ease of steering but more about the steering feedback between the 2 techniques. You seem to say the easy technique gives less steering feedback. Now if it's hard to turn in I don't mind that much, but if I lose steering feedback or get undesirable feedback, that I do care. :)

I do not know the feeling diff between the 2, but anyway if it's easy to remove the rack and take the 2nd approach after having driving experience with the car and not being satisfied, then no big deal that is true. :)

[Xusia]

Hi Frank,

To clarify, there are 2 items we are discussing: 1)The seal on the rack rod itself; and 2)The pinion gear "slop."

I can't imagine item #1 will have any impact on feedback. That is strictly an issue of resistance to movement, and is in my opinion a matter of preference. I definitely don't like or want the steering effort to be TOO easy (which is why I'm not a huge fan of power steering), but I really can't imagine that a manual rack on any road going car could be too easy to turn. Of the 2 items, this is probably the more difficult to do after the fact because you have to disconnect the tie rods.

Item #2 has the potential to affect feedback, but according to those with firsthand experience (i.e. NOT me), the slop is not noticeable. So, assuming that's true, it should have no effect on feedback. Of the 2 items, this is the one I am personally more concerned about. It's all about feedback and accuracy for me, and I don't want to chance anything even potentially getting in the way of that. Also, if you just did this, it's SOOOO easy (on the 2003 at least) it's almost ridiculous not to do. I could have the pinion out, welded, and back in, in probably 30-45 minutes. Maybe even less. It's 2 bolts and 1 ring clip (IIRC), and you don't put the ring clip back in (because it holds the valve body which doesn't go back in after welding). If you are THIS concerned about it, I say just do it. It's not like having ZERO slop will make for a bad experience, right?

[Frank818]

Oh I probably misread then, thought the seal was part of the whole thing. I have taken notes to check it out on my donor once I get hands on it. But now I understand better. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

In the above conversation, I think calling it "SLOP" is incorrect. I think of "SLOP" as play. Slop would be caused by loose tie rod joints or a worn rack/pinion gears.

There is a torsion shaft/device in the steering rack, The torsion device acts a soft coupler. any steering wheel movement will make it to the wheels and vice versa.

With the welded modification you may be able to feel every crack in the concrete. Without the weld, small road imperfections may get filtered out.
Bob

[Xusia]

^Isn't the purpose of the rubber coupler in the shaft connector to reduce vibrations and sharp inputs?

[JeromeS13]

^Isn't the purpose of the rubber coupler in the shaft connector to reduce vibrations and sharp inputs?

Yes. But the STI version is solid, so it gives it more of a direct feel and allows the driver to feel more of the road.

[Frank818]

Xusia you don't have the STI rubber right?

[freds]

In the above conversation, I think calling it "SLOP" is incorrect. I think of "SLOP" as play. Slop would be caused by loose tie rod joints or a worn rack/pinion gears.

There is a torsion shaft/device in the steering rack, The torsion device acts a soft coupler. any steering wheel movement will make it to the wheels and vice versa.

With the welded modification you may be able to feel every crack in the concrete. Without the weld, small road imperfections may get filtered out.
Bob

The torsion bar is there for the power steering valve.
When there is no torsional force on the steering column the torsion bar moves the valve back to normal "closed" position...so that no fluid is being "pushed" into either side of the rack.
As soon as you you start to turn (either left or right) the torsion bar twists just enough to open a valve orifice to allow fluid to pass to the rack to help push the rack in the direction being turned.

It is a clever device because no matter what position the steering wheel is in....if you are not moving the steering wheel the torsion bar puts the valve in the neutral (closed) position and no force goes to the rack.

That is its function.

fred

[Xusia]

Frank, not sure what you mean by STi rubber.

All, slop was probably not the most accurate word to describe the situation, so my apologies for that. Nonetheless, without doing the weld I discussed above, there is a minor disconnect/delay/inaccuracy - whatEVER you want to call it - inherent in the pinion assembly because of the torsion bar. Those that have driven with a depowered rack (that is not welded) have said you don't notice it. I haven't driven with my rack depowered at all, so as the saying goes, I can neither confirm nor deny that it is not noticable. Welding it is NOT going to have an adverse affect (unless you somehow damage it), and it's EASY to do (on the 2003 anyway). Do with that what you will...

[Xusia]

It's been a while since I posted in my own build thread, so I guess I'm overdue for an update. FTW (the local tuning shop working on my engine), finished with my engine, so I wanted to get that installed in the frame. Mostly because I didn't really have another place to store it! To make a long story short, logistics were an issue and the best solution was to get to the roller stage, so spent what little time I had doing that. I will have to go back and take of some things I skipped (like the alum panels).

Here's a pic of the engine going in (a lot of stuff is not attached), and another of the engine sitting in the frame:
2576925768

I think the engine came out looking very good. I'm very pleased with the results and time & care FTW put into it! Details of the engine work are in my next post, but the high level summary is that I extended the rev limit to 8000 (stock is 7000), did work/mods to help the engine rev more quickly and flow better, and enhance reliability. My emphasis wasn't on outright power, but rather focused on increasing both performance and reliability. For instance, an engine that revs more quickly will accelerate more quickly. Extending the rev limit does several things:

An extra 1000 RPM means more time in gear. More time in gear means less time shifting.
Shifting at 8000 RPM (as opposed to 7000), puts you higher in the RPM range in the next gear than you would have been otherwise. This means more boost and more HP available.
Greater RPM range makes all the gears more useful by providing a greater range of use and more flexibility in regards to gear selection.

This all translates to faster 0-60 & 1/4 mile times (or lap times, if that's your thing).

I'm also in the middle of a conundrum, which I will post separately from my build thread. I would appreciate the perspectives of those knowledgeable.

I have more videos, but I'm a bit behind on posting them. Hopefully soon!

Tool Review: Channellock Snap Ring Pliers (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308959_200308959)
Verdict: Awesome!! They change from push to pull with the flick of a lever, and come with multiple ends. Look no further than these!

[Xusia]

After tearing into the engine a bit, a couple items that needed attention became apparent:

Burnt exhaust valves
Broken camshaft gear

The need to address those lead me down a road I hadn't really intended to go (or at least, didn't intend to go as far as I did), but as the saying goes, "as long as you're in there..."

We started with all the normal engine maintenance stuff:

New Timing Belt, Pulleys, Tensioner, & Water Pump
Spark Plugs (NKG Iridium)
Valve Lash Adjustment (which is where we found the burnt valves and broken camshaft gear)
New Clutch (OEM Exidy)


Since we now needed to pull the heads, I went a bit overboard:

GSC Power Division 1mm Larger Intake & Exhaust Valves
Machined existing Cylinder Heads
Brian Crower Single Spring/Titanium Retainer Kit


And I also did all the "typical" performance mods:

Perrin Turbo Inlet
Grimmspeed Phenolic Spacers
TGV Delete
Grimmspeed Crosspipe


And a few I'd consider perhaps a tad more than typical, but certainly recognized as valuable:

ACT Lightweight Flywheel
Manifold Porting
11mm STi Oil Pump
Perrin Crank Pulley
Killer B Oil Pickup & windage tray


My car already has:

VF39 Turbo
Modded stock injectors
Walbro fuel pump
Grimspeed EBCS
Perrin Intake
Upgraded (I forget the brand) up-pipe
Bellmouth down-pipe


And finally, lest the transmission feel left out:

Complete 2009 gearset (stronger, and slightly taller first-third gears)
OBX LSD (with bolt/washer upgrade)


I spent far more money than I budgeted or wanted to, BUT I think I'm going to be very happy with the results (and at the end of the day, I'd likely be more bothered that I didn't do something "right").

FTW is estimating ~330hp at the wheels, but performance should be a bit better than that HP would suggest. The engine should also be bullet proof reliable - which is a big deal for me (for those that are just tuning in, mine will be a daily driver).

EDIT: Forget to mention the intake valves & turbo!

[wleehendrick]

Looks like you went down that 'slippery slope'... but it looks great!

[Goldwing]

Looks beautiful. I like the idea of taller 1-3 gears.

[longislandwrx]

It will be easy to add cams down the road if you decide to go that route.

What turbo are you running, i'm sure you mentioned it prior, but not in your last post.

who did the engine work?

[Frank818]

I like that blue. Put some more. :)

[Xusia]

I seriously considered cams, but one of my goals/streategies (that I didn't mention) was quick sppol, and came to the conclusion cams would ultimately affect that goal negatively. I also didn't feel I really needed more power, or that I needed to move the available power around the curve. So I decided against them - for now at least.

I forgot to mention the turbo, so I'll edit that post. It's a VF39.

As for the blue, I like it to, and do plan some more - but it will be sparingly since it's a highlight color. :)

[doolots]

This car looks awesome! I am semi local to you up in Portland and hope to join the list here really soon.

If you need any Subaru parts let me know as i deal in them quiet a bit and am a dealer.I have 2 complete wrx's that I will be making into complete donors here soon.

I am transferring from building lots of Honda s2000's over to one of these 818s. I cannot wait!

[Xusia]

Sweet! If you find yourself down South, feel free to stop by. :)

[grayghost]

Xusia, read your engine thread, I am trying to do much of what you did without the $ and opening the engine. Mine will be a DD with side trips to the local autocross events.
RLM

[Xusia]

Some more bling:
26296 26297

I'm also working on the front firewall and have officially decided drilling is my LEAST favorite activity. I pulled a couple noob maneuvers (What did I expect? After all, I am a noob at this!), and drilled holes in the alum where I couldn't possibly drill a hole in the frame (because I couldn't get a drill into proper position). Oh well. I'll make do. I'm getting better at taking these kinds of things in stride. :)

[Rasmus]

drilled holes in the alum where I couldn't possibly drill a hole in the frame (because I couldn't get a drill into proper position). Oh well. I'll make do.
Just fill the hole with a short grip rivet and no one will ever know it's just for decoration. :)

[Canadian818]

Or a dab of black silicone

[Mechie3]

and drilled holes in the alum where I couldn't possibly drill a hole in the frame

I did this twice. I stopped drilling the aluminum and frame separately after the second one. Instead, I marked the holes I liked, clamped the aluminum, drilled one hole and cleco'd it. I then drilled all the rest with the aluminum on the frame. After I had 3 cleco's I removed the clamp. If I couldn't get a drill into position, the aluminum didn't get drilled so I had no extra holes.

[Rasmus]

I did this twice. I stopped drilling the aluminum and frame separately after the second one. Instead, I marked the holes I liked, clamped the aluminum, drilled one hole and cleco'd it. I then drilled all the rest with the aluminum on the frame. After I had 3 cleco's I removed the clamp. If I couldn't get a drill into position, the aluminum didn't get drilled so I had no extra holes.

Mentally filing this one away for my build. Great tip Mechie. Its neat how such a small change in process or method and can make for easy work.

[Xusia]

That is a good suggestion! It's a bit late for me, but hopefully it saves others' some headaches. :)

[MichaelN]

Xusia, your transmission looks beautiful! How did you get it cleaned up so nice? Really thorough cleaning? Did you paint it?

Thanks for taking to time to document your build. It's very educational for novices such as myself.

[RM1SepEx]

I did this twice. I stopped drilling the aluminum and frame separately after the second one. Instead, I marked the holes I liked, clamped the aluminum, drilled one hole and cleco'd it. I then drilled all the rest with the aluminum on the frame. After I had 3 cleco's I removed the clamp. If I couldn't get a drill into position, the aluminum didn't get drilled so I had no extra holes.

If you try to follow the manual you get incorrect holes on the first panel! :( I clamped and cleco the panel and drill in place as well. You NEED a 90 degree drill, I use air powered for this task. I did miss an issue in one spot and drilled through into a weld, broke off a drill. Watch for that too... No reason to put a rivet where you can't get the hand rivet tool in as well.

[Xusia]

Xusia, your transmission looks beautiful! How did you get it cleaned up so nice? Really thorough cleaning? Did you paint it?

Thanks for taking to time to document your build. It's very educational for novices such as myself.

Hi Michael. Thanks for the compliment! I had the shop that did my engine work clean it up and paint it, but the paint is designed to look like the original metal color. Up close you can tell it's painted (which isn't a bad thing IMO), but in photos or from a distance I think it looks like really clean raw metal. :)

[Goldwing]

You're painting things I would never have thought of painting. The brake master above looks very nice. It's going to look sweet when finished.

[longislandwrx]

Even with a 90 deg drill I still had issues with two holes I drilled. cant fit the rivet gun. I though about just gluing the rivet in place, but I just left it empty.

[michael everson]

The masters look great. Too bad they will never be seen once the windshield surround is in place.
Mike

[Canadian818]

The masters look great. Too bad they will never be seen once the windshield surround is in place.
Mike

Shameless :p But very true

[Xusia]

I know they won't be seen (unless someone really gets in there). But I'll know the're painted and look nice! :)

[Xusia]

I haven't done a lot of actual work, but I've spent a fair amount of time working on some ideas and solutions to some challenges, so I thought I'd share. It's turned out to be quite the novel. For those who's religion is TL;DR, you might want to read the sections on the gas tank and gas pedal!

Actual Work
I finished drilling the front firewall panels. <-- <in my best smartie-pants voice> Wow! Just look at all I've done!!! And I made the decision to paint them black. Currently they are white from the acoustic and thermal insulating paint. I was going to leave them white, but it's already picking up all kinds of dirt. I'm not bit on cleaning, and I'm not big on dirty stuff, so black they will be.

Oh, and I marked the frame locations on the interior alum panels (but I haven't yet removed them from the chassis).

Ideas, Challenges, & Solutions (where I have them)

Seats & Seating
I started a thread on this, so I won't report the details here. In short, I am going with the stock seats, but will make custom mounting brackets. I found these provide the most comfortable seating position and have the adjustability and features I want. My head is slightly above the roll bar, which means no driver training or high performance driving events for me - at least for now. I have some options for the future, such as swapping to a race seat for the day (part of the reason I'm making my own seat mounting brackets), or making a taller roll bar (I need to know more about the soft top first).
Sway Bar
I won't be using a sway bar. I bought the Prothane mounts, but it still seemed like a kluge to me. Getting just the right position so it didn't hit the spring or the upright was difficult, and I wasn't confident it would stay perfectly. It wasn't really in the way of the gas tank, but not having it there leaves that area open to other stuff. As I've become more educated on this topic, I've started to see the sway bar as a compromise. On a car with so little body roll already, it really seems not worth doing. If I find the rear end too swap happy, I'll just use a front spring with a more appropriate spring rate.
Gas Tank Update
I've made some prototypes out of cardboard and pretty much have the design finalized (No pics yet - you'll have to wait!). The shape is rather odd, so I won't attempt to describe it (you'll have to wait for pictures). It will be 10" - 12" high as measured from the top of the "V" frame rails on either side of the battery tray. The shape of the tank allows space for the radiator hoses, steering column & joint, etc. Brake and clutch lines that cross from the driver's side to the passenger side would need to do so higher up - at the level of the master cylinders or just below.

Capacity at the 10" height would be approximately 11 gallons. at 12" high capacity would be approximately 13.25 gallons. These assume no sway bar, which could be accommodated but would reduce capacity. By adding a smaller and slightly differently shaped section on top, capacity could be increased to almost 19 gallons without a sway bar, and 17 gallons with a sway bar. So as you can see, there is plenty of room here! (though adding a top section really fills up this space) The reason for the different shape on the top section is to allow space for the clutch master cylinder and brake line routing.

Installation will involve cutting out the battery tray and the 2 "V" shaped frame rails on either side of the battery tray, to accommodate installing the gas tank from underneath. This approach gets around a lot of issues associated with installing it from above, and allows for easy removal later if needed (because there is nothing on the bottom to interfere with). The bottom of the gas tank will incorporate those "V" frame rails (and possibly some others), and will mount very solidly to the chassis. While those "V" frame rails won't be welded to the rest of the chassis, the addition of a solid sheet of steel (the bottom of the gas tank), and plenty of hardware mounting these to the frame, should mean rigidity in this area won't suffer.

For filling, I plan to use the FFR supplied gas cap on the side of the passenger side front fender, above the back of the wheel well. I expect this will involve a custom tube, but it will be a mostly straight shot, so it won't be complicated.

I'm really excited about this and can't wait to show off the final solution. I will be working on this as soon as the weather gets to the point I can trailer my chassis to my In-Law's house. So I will hopefully have something tangible soon for anyone who is interested in replicating this.
Gas Pedal
I was playing with the gas pedal from my 2003 donor (so mechanical throttle) looking for a solution that didn't involve running the cable out through the firewall and back in by the center tunnel (because the gas tank will be there). In so doing, I noticed the very large amount of travel it had (~5", measured at the point where the cable attaches, therefore being representative of potential cable travel) , and it struck me as curious. As I started investigating, it become obvious that not all the available travel of the pedal is actually used. The engine only requires about 2" of cable travel to go from fully closed to fully open throttle. As a side note, the space under the dash accommodates ~3" of travel. You might be wondering where this is going...

Well in motorcycling, it's common to change the ratio of grip twist to throttle response. Motorcycle manufacturers commonly make the twist very long - presumably for safety - more travel means easier throttle modulation, more precise control, and it makes it harder to get to full throttle so power output (because there is a limit to how far you can twist a handgrip while riding) is somewhat tamed. So it's common to replace the grip insert with one that uses less travel to go from fully closed to fully open. This it inspired a thought: Why not change the ratio of gas pedal travel to throttle cable travel/response in my 818!

In the case of the 818, I'd be looking to increase the pedal travel relative to the cable travel, using all the available 3" of pedal travel (limited by the space in which it's mounted) to facilitate the required 2" of cable travel. Just as a longer grip twist on a motorcycle allows for more precise control, it should do the same in the 818.

Why? First, when is more precise control bad?? Also, I've driven high HP cars and found them a bit awkward around town. At some point in the pedal travel, they really just want to GO! Having more travel available seems like it would help. I haven't really come up with a down side. Some might think the additional travel may be awkward, but since it's at the foot I just don't think so. And of course, any system I design to achieve this would be adjustable so I could easily undo it.

Brilliance or insanity? You tell me!
Brake Master Cylinder Mounting
I don't like the solution FFR came up with for mounting the brake master cylinder, though I think I understand why they did it that way. The semi-perfectionist in me is after a more elegant solution. I like the solution Mike Everson came up with, but I have an idea I'm going to try fabbing up and see how I like. I'll go with whichever I like better.
Intercooler
I finally faced the fact that I just don't have a plan. Heck, I don't even have any clever ideas in this area (that are worth doing). So I bought Wayne's (VCP) AWIC (air-to-water intercooler) with optional blow off valve. One less thing to worry about! Thanks Wayne!
Shifter
Front mounted gas tank means shifter cables must go rearward. In looking at the FFR supplied shifter, converting it was more trouble than it was worth to me. So I bought the K-Tuned shifter from Wayne (VCP). Wayne to the rescue again!
ABS, Mounting, & Proportioning Valve
Most of this is summary from another post.

I'm want to use ABS, and I plan to mount the ABS control unit on top of my [front mounted] gas tank. My thought is gas tank could act somewhat as a dampener, and the proximity of the master cylinder would minimize hard line routing. I've decided against using proportioning valves, for several reasons: 1)They need to be installed after the ABS control unit, which means I would need 2 and I currently only have 1. Yeah, I could buy another, so this isn't a major reason, just a contributor. 2)Feedback has been that the brakes are pretty well balanced as is. 3)With the gas tank up front, my weight distribution will be closer to 50/50 and therefore require less potential rearward shift in brake bias. 4)I'd rather err on the side of caution, and have too much front brake bias than have too much rear brake bias. And 5)If it does turn out I have too much front brake bias, it will only matter in panic stops (I'm not racing), and I'm fine with letting the ABS deal with that.

EDIT: I couldn't add what I wanted (post too long), so added another post below!

[Rasmus]

Sway Bar
I won't be using a sway bar.
You don't even know how much I like this. I like the fact that you looked into what a sway bar does and the compromises you give and get to run one. I love that you took the time to understand it. My simplified goal in car suspension set up is plagiarized from others smarter but, "Get the front to stick as much as you possibly can. Tune the rear to the front."



Gas Pedal
I was playing with the gas pedal from my 2003 donor...
Brilliance or insanity? You tell me!
From a man who loves AutoX: Brilliant. More precision control of the throttle makes a smoother drive. Smooth is fast. Smooth is top PAX. Jerking a car around an AutoX course relegates you to a life at mid-pack.

[AZPete]

I LOVE this place for the creativity, ingenuity and the smarts to question/rethink/redesign everything! It's always thought-provoking . . . and a great place to suck up time at work!

[Xusia]

Rasmus, thanks! I try to learn as much as I can. And - by the way - YOU help a lot with this!

Pete, what a great compliment! Thank you very much. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Xusia
All great Ideas. Here is some of what I doing on the gas car.
1. Radiator and Intercooler stacked in back like sixstar.
2. Gas tank in front 14"wide x 18"long 12" high. 11 gallons.
3. reduce total transmission length by 7 inches. bar coming out of side of transmission for shifting.
4. Subaru shifter connected to transmission with u-joint shaft.
5. no sway bar.
6. ABS mounted inside cockpit on top of center tunnel at front fire wall.
7. storage area under front hood.
8. Better crash protection steel added front and back.
9. nascar style side impact foam in sides of car and doors.
10. move pedal box forward
11. move steering column forward


I need to stop designing and start producing.
Bob

[Xusia]

Hey Bob, I'll be very interested in your shortening of the transmission. Please document! Also, you made me realize I forgot some things, so I edited my post. I feel you on the "start producing!"

[Xusia]

The stuff I forgot:


Rear Crash Protection
I have 2 goals here:
1. Prevent larger vehicles from running up and over the engine & transmission (that could end badly). I'm thinking something like what Six Star Cars did for their rear intercooler mount. They didn't make their for strength, but I plan to. I would make it removable to facilitate easy engine removal.
2. Protect the transmission shifting mechanism. For this, I'm talking about crashes that would otherwise leave the car operational. If a crash is bad enough to seriously damage the car, I'm not expecting whatever I put in place to save the shift mechanism or the transmission. I'm thinking either something like a guard plate attached to the transmission itself, perhaps even welded to the cover plate, or something that attaches to the crash bar mentioned above and the transmission support below. I kinda like the guard plate idea because it's attached to the transmission and therefore doesn't have to be made removable. It's also very simple. Only downside is that it leave crash absorption to the engine mounts (and the crash bar mentioned above). We'll have to see when I get there.
Rear Trunk
I plan to build a removable bin (like a camping cooler, but without the insulation), and use the crash bar I plan to add as a perimeter for longitudinal and lateral support. I would build some flat surfaces in various places for the bottom to rest on for weight support. It would bolt in to ensure it's secure. The reason for making it removable is for flexibility of the space and so that if I want to run light for whatever reason, I can.

Not sure if it will have it's own lid or if I'll rely on the body trunk lid. I like the idea of making it fully enclosed - I could make it lockable and not worry so much about a body trunk lid lock. Lots of possibilities.

Since my gas tank will be up front, there will also be a fair amount of storage behind the seats.
Steel Floor
I just really want some more protection under my butt. I've also noticed the floor under the foot area bends a bit under weight. I like protection and solid feel more than I like a light car, so I'm planning on welding a steel plate (or 2, if that's what it takes) under whole cockpit. This would involve cutting out the existing floors in the foot area and behind the seats, and welding on some slightly thicker steel. It will also make it hella water proof!

As a side note, I plan to take the alum that is intended to be used under the seats and make it into the rear firewall. Because I can mount it from the inside, I can make it a solid piece, and that under seat piece is basically the correct size as is. SCORE! I plan to make it removeable for easy servicing of the timing set (or anything else), and of course I'll have to accommodate wiring, shifter cables, and throttle cables, but that seems like it should be easy. The only thing I'm still thinking about is how to adequately insulate this wall. I really don't want the sound of the engine drowning out music or conversation. (Blasphemy, I know!!!)
Spray Foam
I plan to use spray foam on the front firewall, between the frame rails, for added NVH insulation. It should provide a very solid feel with little weight.

Like Bob, I also plan to use it in the doors. Both for added crash protection, and to provide a solid feel to the door.

And I'm not talking about that crud that comes in a can. I'm talking about real spray foam that uses a proper sprayer, mixing the chemicals as you spray. Check out http://www.sprayfoamkit.com/products/spray-foam-kits

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Xusia
I am still designing. To cold to work in the barn.
I forgot one.
I am using 2 triangular sheets of aluminum to make a sealed box for the ECU and some of the relays. Picture below.
Bob

26748

[Santiago]

No sway bar, thank you very much. I'm glad to see more folks planning to ditch that. I forget who kept drilling it into my head that "if you have a sway bar, you don't really have an independent suspension." Get the spring rates right through design/tuning, carry on.

And Bob, I think everyone is going to be very interested in seeing what you come up with to shorten the trans.

Best,
-j

[Goldwing]

I'm with you on the blasphemous noise reduction. The jet engines make enough noise at work, I prefer my leisure activities to be quieter. I have used a little spray foam in the frame pieces (squirted after drilling the rivet holes) to reduce noise transmission from the engine bay forward. Not sure how much that will do, but usually in this department every little step helps. As an open roadster, it might seem silly, but I will have a top eventually. That's when those efforts will pay off. I'll paint the aluminum panels with sound deadening as well like you mentioned above. Mine is already dark, like a charcoal color. I'll watch your ideas in this department.

[mrprgrmr]

Xusia, I do remember twisting the throttle until my wrist was in an unnatural position to get to full throttle on my motorcycles. I just thought it was me! Please post pics if you figure out how to use the full gas pedal travel. I'm seriously interested in this mod. It seems like it might make driving the 818 in traffic more enjoyable. Also, when someone unfamiliar with the vehicle asks to drive it, it would be less worry. It's easy to say "yes, it's fast and no you can't drive it" to most people, but there are a few folks I just couldn't decline (my family).

[ehansen007]

You don't even know how much I like this. I like the fact that you looked into what a sway bar does and the compromises you give and get to run one. I love that you took the time to understand it. My simplified goal in car suspension set up is plagiarized from others smarter but, "Get the front to stick as much as you possibly can. Tune the rear to the front."


From a man who loves AutoX: Brilliant. More precision control of the throttle makes a smoother drive. Smooth is fast. Smooth is top PAX. Jerking a car around an AutoX course relegates you to a life at mid-pack.

Having autocrossed the 33 Hot Rod without a sway bar I can say I hardly missed it. But only because it was easy to change springs to compensate. But when I drove on the street with softer springs it rolled A LOT. If you're looking for the best of all worlds, then a sway bar isn't a bad idea; and it was was invented for a reason; to give maximum ride quality while still minimizing body roll. I don't think I will be running my sway bar because I have a huge battery box in the way! :)

[STiPWRD]

Hey Brian, have you thought about front end collisions and reinforcing your front mounted gas tank? I believe FFR designed the radiator supports to buckle in the event of a collision as to not transfer high loads and deform the main chassis (i.e. it's much easier to replace the radiator support than to straighten out the main chassis). Just hope your gas tank design isn't going to be in that crumple zone. Great creativity BTW.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

No sway bar, thank you very much. I'm glad to see more folks planning to ditch that. I forget who kept drilling it into my head that "if you have a sway bar, you don't really have an independent suspension." Get the spring rates right through design/tuning, carry on.

And Bob, I think everyone is going to be very interested in seeing what you come up with to shorten the trans.

Best,
-j

I'll just put something in my build thread
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=142490#post142490

Bob

[Xusia]

Hey Brian, have you thought about front end collisions and reinforcing your front mounted gas tank? I believe FFR designed the radiator supports to buckle in the event of a collision as to not transfer high loads and deform the main chassis (i.e. it's much easier to replace the radiator support than to straighten out the main chassis). Just hope your gas tank design isn't going to be in that crumple zone. Great creativity BTW.

Thanks for the compliment! As for the gas tank, it's going where the battery is supposed to go, which is rearward of the radiator crumple zone. It will actually be behind what seems like a very strong section of the frame - almost directly underneath the forward most part of the windshield (about half forward of it, and half behind it). I hope this makes sense. I'll post some pics when I have a few more things ironed out. I definitely plan to "share the love" I just want to present something with more "wow" than I currently have! LOL

[Canadian818]

All this "no sway bar" talk is new to me, have I been living under a rock? From the few posts above this is what I've gathered;

Proper spring rates (probably higher) would negate the need for the sway bar.

Use of the sway bar allows for the use of softer springs which equals a smoother ride.

That about right?

[Frank818]

Use of the sway bar allows for the use of softer springs which equals a smoother ride.

Does it? I have changed for bigger front and rear sway bars on my Corrado and I can tell you the ride has gone up a lot on the Harsh meter (no that's not the name of a German scientist). Even with much softer suspension (adjustable), the chassis is so rigid that it remains harsh on the road.

Not sure how that would apply to the 818, but Erik doesn't use the sway bar and says there's absolutely no body roll and probably wouldn't use one, if I recall. Can't tell what plays into the equation here, but some food for thoughts on this topic... :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

All this "no sway bar" talk is new to me, have I been living under a rock? From the few posts above this is what I've gathered;

Proper spring rates (probably higher) would negate the need for the sway bar.

Use of the sway bar allows for the use of softer springs which equals a smoother ride.

That about right?

FFR blue and white 818R doesn't have a sway bar. But does have much stiffer front springs.
Bob

[Xusia]

All this "no sway bar" talk is new to me, have I been living under a rock? From the few posts above this is what I've gathered;

Proper spring rates (probably higher) would negate the need for the sway bar.

Use of the sway bar allows for the use of softer springs which equals a smoother ride.

That about right?

Well, time to test my new found understanding!

All of what you said is true. BUT, you left out the downside of using a sway bar: Under aggressive cornering, it can actually "pull" the inside wheel up, reducing traction.

The thing to keep in mind is a sway bar is designed to reduce body roll, not necessarily increase traction. Sway bars can help with traction to a point, depending on the center of gravity. As the center of gravity is moved lower, the positive effect of a sway bar on traction can become a negative effect. I should point out this is only under aggressive cornering. At regular street driving, and mild cornering, the negative effects of a sway bar are limited to such things as increased jarring felt over rough roads - nothing too terrible.

SO, the question is really what compromise do you want to make? Softer spring rates for a smoother ride under "normal" driving conditions, but with a lower limit on aggressive cornering; or a stiffer, less compliant ride, but better traction during aggressive cornering?

I'm building this thing to perform, and I don't mind a stiff ride as long as I have some creature comforts inside, so for me the choice was clear.

I hope this helps. :)

[Xusia]

Does it? I have changed for bigger front and rear sway bars on my Corrado and I can tell you the ride has gone up a lot on the Harsh meter (no that's not the name of a German scientist). Even with much softer suspension (adjustable), the chassis is so rigid that it remains harsh on the road.

This is because you have "tied" or "bound" the wheels together, effectively eliminating the "independance" of your suspension. You have gone TOO stiff on the sway bar, and not stiff enough on the springs.


Not sure how that would apply to the 818, but Erik doesn't use the sway bar and says there's absolutely no body roll and probably wouldn't use one, if I recall. Can't tell what plays into the equation here, but some food for thoughts on this topic... :)

My guess is because of the low center of gravity, and the SUPER low roll center. Yet another reason why I'm ditching the sway bar (it's designed to combat body roll, which isn't a serious problem).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm starting with no sway bars but leaving my options open. One of my donors did need them.
267562675726758
Half way through last season I changed to a much larger rear bar (thanks Turnin Concepts) and the car went from plowing through corners to a tail end that comes around if I push it to hard.
Bob

[Canadian818]

Thanks for all the info, I'll leave it off for now. Since I'll be running "R" aero on my S, I'm expecting to need stiffer springs anyway, so I'll start without it.

[Xusia]

So I fabbed up that brake master cylinder mounting bracket. Pictures are below. Some NOTES:

This is a handmade prototype. I know it's not perfectly square, symmetrical, etc.
Part is made from 1/2" steel plate (currently it's just primered to prevent rusting), so as it is right now (i.e. without milling to remove weight) this is NOT a solution for those looking to keep the weight as low as possible. Rather, this would be for those that prefer a clean look and easy installation over weight savings.
The MC mounting holes are threaded 5/16, so the FFR supplied bolts can be used, but they stick out the back just a bit. If I stick with 1/2" plate (which is likely), current ideas for solutions are to either cut/grind the bolts down, drill out the behind them (my preferred solution), or use washers.
I have not test fitted this onto the car yet (coming soon), though I will be very surprised if there are any issues because I used the pedal box & FFR alum as a guide.
Because I haven't fitted it onto the car, I have not yet tested the length of the brake pushrod

26823 26824
26820 26822 26821

What do you guys think?

[Frank818]

Brian, which post # explains your brake master cyl issue for which you had to fab that bracket?

[Xusia]

I mentioned what I was doing in post #105 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12662-Xusia-s-Build-Thread-Building-an-818S-for-Dummies&p=142368&viewfull=1#post142368), but it doesn't really explain the issue. My assumption was most folks have been reading the various build threads and are familiar with the issue. I'll summarize here.

FFR's solution for mounting the brake master cylinder has 2 issues:

The MC is mounted such that it is tilted/rotated toward the passenger side by several degrees. From what I understand, this should not affect function, but it visually unappealing to me.
You have to drill holes in the pedal box for the bolts, and the hole on the driver's side is close enough to some of the pedal box structure that the nut won't fit. Most people have reversed the bolt (run it from the inside out), and shaved part of the head to get it to fit.


As my post #105 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12662-Xusia-s-Build-Thread-Building-an-818S-for-Dummies&p=142368&viewfull=1#post142368) says, FFR's solution works, and keeps costs down, it's just not very elegant. My solution above is simple, elegant, and allows for easy removal if necessary. The only disadvantage I can see is the weight (which really isn't that much).

Does that explain it?

[Frank818]

Ok, that's a good explanation. I didn't really realize that in other builds, either the pix didn't speak for themselves or I didn't understand the issue. I guess I'll see that better once I get there in my build, I'll keep in mind the possible fab of such bracket.

To save weight, you could fab it in carbon fiber. lollll

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So I fabbed up that brake master cylinder mounting bracket. Pictures are below. Some NOTES:

This is a handmade prototype. I know it's not perfectly square, symmetrical, etc.
Part is made from 1/2" steel plate (currently it's just primered to prevent rusting), so as it is right now (i.e. without milling to remove weight) this is NOT a solution for those looking to keep the weight as low as possible. Rather, this would be for those that prefer a clean look and easy installation over weight savings.
The MC mounting holes are threaded 5/16, so the FFR supplied bolts can be used, but they stick out the back just a bit. If I stick with 1/2" plate (which is likely), current ideas for solutions are to either cut/grind the bolts down, drill out the behind them (my preferred solution), or use washers.
I have not test fitted this onto the car yet (coming soon), though I will be very surprised if there are any issues because I used the pedal box & FFR alum as a guide.
Because I haven't fitted it onto the car, I have not yet tested the length of the brake pushrod

26823 26824
26820 26822 26821

What do you guys think?

Looks good Brian,
Is there room for bolt head in the top holes?
Do you know why FFR mounted it on an angle in the first place? There has to be a reason.
Bob

[Xusia]

Looks good Brian,
Is there room for bolt head in the top holes?
Do you know why FFR mounted it on an angle in the first place? There has to be a reason.
Bob

Bolt head IN the top holes? No, the bolt head would sit on top with the shaft going through the hole. This is how to the bracket is held in place. It would mean a longer bolt would need to be used. In my case, I plan to use some left over 8mm bolts from the donor if I can find ones of appropriate length. If not, I'll source some other hardware. I could have threaded those as well, but that would leave the bolt shaft showing in the hole, and one of goals is a nice look, so that didn't seem a good solution.

As far as why FFR did it the way they did, I can only guess. But, in looking at the pedal box my guess is that it there was simply too much interference on the back side of it. As to why not provide a mounting plate like this one, my guess is cost. They would have to supply longer bolts, and there is the cost of making this part, and managing inventory, etc. I try to keep in mind the kit is for a race car, not a show car. While I'm not making mine as a show car, I do want it to look nice. So I figure that makes me the odd man out, and I'm OK with that!

[Xusia]

Also, I don't really want to get into the business of making parts, but if other people want this I could see what it would cost to make (so far doesn't seem like others like this design much, though so maybe not an issue).

However, if someone else wanted to do it that would be better. (Mike??) I don't want any money or anything, Well, maybe some credit! :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bolt head IN the top holes? No, the bolt head would sit on top with the shaft going through the hole. This is how to the bracket is held in place. It would mean a longer bolt would need to be used. In my case, I plan to use some left over 8mm bolts from the donor if I can find ones of appropriate length. If not, I'll source some other hardware. I could have threaded those as well, but that would leave the bolt shaft showing in the hole, and one of goals is a nice look, so that didn't seem a good solution.

As far as why FFR did it the way they did, I can only guess. But, in looking at the pedal box my guess is that it there was simply too much interference on the back side of it. As to why not provide a mounting plate like this one, my guess is cost. They would have to supply longer bolts, and there is the cost of making this part, and managing inventory, etc. I try to keep in mind the kit is for a race car, not a show car. While I'm not making mine as a show car, I do want it to look nice. So I figure that makes me the odd man out, and I'm OK with that!

Brian
I don't know if you understood my question. See how close this hole is to the MC. It doesn't leave room for a bolt head. I wanted to know if your solution fixed this.
Bob
26832

[Xusia]

Brian
I don't know if you understood my question. See how close this hole is to the MC. It doesn't leave room for a bolt head. I wanted to know if your solution fixed this.
Bob
26832

That was one of my design goals, but as I said I haven't actually mounted it to the car, so I haven't tested the clearance on those bolts.

[Xusia]

I did a test fit of the mounting plate on the chassis and it's fits well:
26855 26856

I did notice the FFR supplied mounting bolts are not quite long enough. I have a solution, but I need to consult my expert! I also still need to test the brake push rod.

Once I do those, I'll clean up the design (this is a prototype!) for a final version:

Shrink the overall size
Square up all the holes
Other feedback??


I have some friends with 3D printers. Do you guys think this would be OK in plastic? My gut says no, but I'd love to hear thoughts from all you smart people!

[Frank818]

I need to consult my expert!

Sometimes we need the wife's approval, hey? :)


BTW, you're right, you're white sound deadening gets a lot dirty already!

[Xusia]

Sometimes we need the wife's approval, hey? :)

LOL! Not the wife; my Father-in-law.


BTW, you're right, you're white sound deadening gets a lot dirty already!

Yep. That's why I decided to paint it black. That's too bad, because I liked the white.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I did a test fit of the mounting plate on the chassis and it's fits well:
Other feedback??

I have some friends with 3D printers. Do you guys think this would be OK in plastic? My gut says no, but I'd love to hear thoughts from all you smart people!

Hey Brian
Looks good.
There can be 2000 lbs of force on the shaft during panic braking.
I figure one could push with 400-500 lbs and a mechanical advantage of 4:1 (guess).
Don't use plastic.
Could go to thinner steel, but then I would use inserted stud like Mike E. for the master cylinder.
I found a similar one online but it doesn't have the offset.

26857
Bob

[Rasmus]

Depends on the kind of plastic. You want a plastic that's chemically resistant and can take repeated impacts without shattering. So PVC's right out.

FEP (Fluorinated ethylene propylene) is a great candidate. Chemically resistant and takes impacts like a champ. Temperature Range: -320° to 400° F. Pricey though: 1/2" x 6" x 6" from McMaster is $135.

HDPE (High-density polyethylene) is good. This is the stuff they make bottle caps and cutting boards out of. Impacts like a champ; resistant to chemicals but not like FEP. Temperature Range: 50° to 180° F. So don't get it cold, it tends to crack. 1/2" x 6" x 6" from McMaster is $8.30.

UHWM (Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene) is good. Impacts like a champ; resistant to chemicals but not like FEP. Rock-crawler boys use this as wear sheets for their skid plates. Also used in humans for things like hip, knee, or spine implants. It'll take a beating. This stuff is slick though. You can actually make iceless skating rinks out of it and still sport ice skates. Temperature Range: -40° to 180° F. 1/2" x 6" x 6" from McMaster is $5.69.

If it were me I'd make your adapter of UHWM plastic or Aluminum.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I did a test fit of the mounting plate on the chassis and it's fits well:
Other feedback??

I have some friends with 3D printers. Do you guys think this would be OK in plastic? My gut says no, but I'd love to hear thoughts from all you smart people!

Hey Brian
Looks good.
There can be 2000 lbs of force on the shaft during panic braking.
I figure one could push with 400-500 lbs and a mechanical advantage of 4:1 (guess).
Don't use plastic.
Could go to thinner steel, but then I would use inserted stud like Mike E. for the master cylinder.
I found a similar one online but it doesn't have the offset.

26857
Bob

[mrprgrmr]

I have some friends with 3D printers. Do you guys think this would be OK in plastic? My gut says no, but I'd love to hear thoughts from all you smart people!
My only experience with 3D printers is using PLA plastic, which has a low melting temperature and is relatively brittle. I don't think it's appropriate anywhere that's exposed to weather. The better 3D printers will do ABS, which might work for some custom knobs or interior parts. I hope to upgrade my printer so I can printer to do ABS at some point but I still wouldn't use it for anything mission critical. So much depends on the printer and the user setting things up right. Even temperature of the room can affect the quality and an imperfect print can make the adhesion between the layers of plastic weak.

BTW, the part looks nice; I just don't have my own kit yet to see if I see a need for one - I might. I like the neat solid purposeful look of it, so if I wanted to shave off some weight I would think aluminum might be a good choice.

[STiPWRD]

I have some friends with 3D printers. Do you guys think this would be OK in plastic? My gut says no, but I'd love to hear thoughts from all you smart people!
It depends on what sort of printers your friends have since there are different ways to rapid prototype plastic. There are many companies that can do this sort of thing - here's a link to some of the materials that are available for the stereolithography method:
http://www.vaupell.com/sites/default/files/Vaupell_2012_SLS_SLA_Charts_F.pdf

As far as what material I would use for this application, since the bracket would be experiencing significant shear forces, I'd go with aluminum or SS. Plastics would be acceptable if the loads were primarily compressive, but in this case they aren't.

[Xusia]

Thanks for the information and good suggestions everyone.


If it were me I'd make your adapter of UHWM plastic or Aluminum.

I considered aluminum first, but I'd have to go with either some kind of bolt (like Mike's design), or a captured nut, because alum wouldn't be strong enough to hold it with only 1/2 of threading. My goal is a nice, clean look, so of the 2 options, captured nut is the only viable one. And I could do a captured nut, but machining the back of the plate to house the captured nut is a lot more time consuming, and hence more expensive, than tapping a hole.

[rtz]

It may cost ~$20 to have one machined out?

http://www.emachineshop.com/

[Goldwing]

As a spacer, plastic, aluminum would be fine, but with the goal to straighten the brake master, it becomes load bearing. To handle a panic brake pedal force magnified by the leverage of the brake pedal, I'd stick with steel if possible. Aluminum could work, but likely need to be thicker, likely necessitating a longer than supplied brake push rod. A thinner, by comparison, steel piece along with drilling the extra hole in the brake pedal closer to the front of the car, will likely stay within the adjustment range of the supplied pushrod. Food for thought, anyway.

[Xusia]

making progress on the seats: https://plus.google.com/107272488473870379365/posts/d4jbg8vNPSz

[Frank818]

Finally some updates. :) I believe your girl wasn't the test the subject for the seats. :)

[Xusia]

Yeah. I'm one of the primary people responsible for a major project at work, so that's been just devastating for my car project. :(

[Xusia]

Did a little work today. I locktited and torqued the front suspension bolts. Next I'll do the rear, then set the ride height, then torque the LCA bushings. After that, I'll finally button up the front firewall, then it's off to actually build my front gas tank and new gas pedal (surprise!). :) (I'm still working on the seats - there's no problem other than time...)

On the topic of ride height, I was thinking of aiming for a final ride height of 4.75" (instead of 4.5"). Since I have more weight to add (body, interior, etc.), I figure I'll have to set the springs for maybe around 5", and hope it settles at around 4.75". Thoughts?

[Rasmus]

I figure I'll have to set the springs for maybe around 5", and hope it settles at around 4.75". Thoughts?
Good springs don't settle. Set the coilover collars on one end then bounce up and down on that end three times. Do the same to the other end. That's your final ride height.

If you need weight to set ride height or corner balance with "you" in the driver's seat go get several 40lb bags of salt used for water softeners. It's about $4 a bag. And you can return it if you don't have a water softener. Let Lot's wife drive while you set ride height.

[Xusia]

When I said settle, what I meant was after as additional weight is added (such as for the body, interior bits, etc.). Even the best springs in the world are still going to compress some when more weight is added. I'm just trying to get a sense of by how much.

[wallace18]

Did a little work today. I locktited and torqued the front suspension bolts. Next I'll do the rear, then set the ride height, then torque the LCA bushings. After that, I'll finally button up the front firewall, then it's off to actually build my front gas tank and new gas pedal (surprise!). :) (I'm still working on the seats - there's no problem other than time...)

On the topic of ride height, I was thinking of aiming for a final ride height of 4.75" (instead of 4.5"). Since I have more weight to add (body, interior, etc.), I figure I'll have to set the springs for maybe around 5", and hope it settles at around 4.75". Thoughts?
My guess is you will be close to your goal.

[freds]

To set ride height for torquing the suspension bushings/mounts, you do not need any particular weight at all.


1. Mount your wheels with about 10 psi inflation pressure.
2. Make 4.5" or 4.75" (or whatever your target clearance number is) spacer blocks out of lumber and set them under the chassis at all four corners.
3. Adjust the spring pre load collars to absolutely no load at all.
With the low pressure in the tires your suspension links will all be very close to ride height now.
4. Torque up all mounting hardware.

And you are done.

Later you merely adjust the spring pre-loads to get the car to ride height. As you add weight you tighten the collars to get the chassis up to ride height, and the suspension components to their "neutral" condition.

[Xusia]

Brilliant freds! I love it! I'm going to follow that plan. Thanks! :)

[longislandwrx]

Sent you an email!

[Frank818]

To set ride height for torquing the suspension bushings/mounts, you do not need any particular weight at all.


1. Mount your wheels with about 10 psi inflation pressure.
2. Make 4.5" or 4.75" (or whatever your target clearance number is) spacer blocks out of lumber and set them under the chassis at all four corners.
3. Adjust the spring pre load collars to absolutely no load at all.
With the low pressure in the tires your suspension links will all be very close to ride height now.
4. Torque up all mounting hardware.

And you are done.

Later you merely adjust the spring pre-loads to get the car to ride height. As you add weight you tighten the collars to get the chassis up to ride height, and the suspension components to their "neutral" condition.

Freds, could you explain why doing it this way?
My mech is totally certain that tightening up the LCAs leveled to floor when there is nothing else attached to them is the way to go. Then you put the wheels on they will flex a bit and then you put the car on the ground on its wheels and the LCAs will level out without flex/stress. I disagree with that, the car weighs more than the wheels! But he's sure his technique will work.

Anyone would know why it wouldn't and why we should do it as described above?

[freds]

Freds, could you explain why doing it this way?
My mech is totally certain that tightening up the LCAs leveled to floor when there is nothing else attached to them is the way to go. Then you put the wheels on they will flex a bit and then you put the car on the ground on its wheels and the LCAs will level out without flex/stress. I disagree with that, the car weighs more than the wheels! But he's sure his technique will work.

Anyone would know why it wouldn't and why we should do it as described above?


I believe that the principle is that at ride height all bushings should be in their absolutely neutral condition....that is with no torsional rotation of the rubber (or whatever) of the bushing.
So under normal absolutely flat "roadway" conditions the bushings are not being stressed.
When you go over a bump and the suspension moves up...the bushing is torqued one way. And when over a pothole the bushing is torqued the other way...always returning to the neutral un-torqued condition when on a flat smooth surface.

If the bushings are torqued in a non neutral ( non ride height ) condition the bushing is always in a twisted (torqued) condition and the response of the bushing is different when going over a bump compared to going over a hole.

This affects handling and life of the bushing.

I've checked this with many people including Jim Schenk.

If the control arm(s) are absolutely level when installed on the car and the car is at ride height...then "flat on the floor" would be OK....but only under those unlikely specific conditions.



Hope this is clear, I'm pretty sure it is correct

fred

[Frank818]

Yeah, I get that. Actually what counts is that no matter how or when you torque the LCA's bushings (4 of them), as long as the LCAs are leveled to the floor and the car is on the ground, you are ok.

Does this mean we need to put all the FB body panels on before we torque the LCAs? Cuz they will add weight and compress the front end.



Xusia, how's your build moving along?

[Jaime]

That's why he says to take air out of the tires. At the end of the day, the only factors that determine the angle of the LCA are the chassis height and the axle height. You get the chassis height right by sitting the frame on blocks, and you simulate weight on the wheels by taking air out. Putting on the panels won't do any good because weight on the chassis gets transferred to the blocks, not the suspension.

If you know the axle height with your wheel and tire combination, you can do this without even mounting the wheels - just jack up the spindles to the right height. Going one step further, you can do it on your build stand. For example, if your target ride height is 4.5 inches and your stand puts the chassis 10.5 inches above the ground, then it's 6 inches too high. If the axle height is supposed to be 12 inches, jack the spindles up until the axle is at 18 inches and tighten away.

[freds]

Yeah, I get that. Actually what counts is that no matter how or when you torque the LCA's bushings (4 of them), as long as the LCAs are leveled to the floor and the car is on the ground, you are ok.

Does this mean we need to put all the FB body panels on before we torque the LCAs? Cuz they will add weight and compress the front end.



Xusia, how's your build moving along?

Frank, the LCA's being level to the floor is irrelevant , as a setting specification.... Just do exactly what Jaime says. If the LCA' do actually happen to end up level to the floor...that is pure coincidence, and not a significant factor. Different cars with different design geometry will all be different relative to the floor. Consider what bump-steer kits are for)

[Frank818]

Sorry Freds, I did misunderstand then. I'll follow the procedure.

[freds]

Sorry Freds, I did misunderstood then. I'll follow the procedure.

No apology necessary, everyone on this forum helps everyone else if they can....and I'm grateful for the help I've received!

fred

[Frank818]

Brian, any updates?

[Louisromersh]

Got busy and didn't post yesterday. Did some more donor tear down - all done now except for the wiring harness. Woo Hoo!

Finished painting the brakes, and I'm very pleased with the result ($10 Harbor Freight Paint Sprayer FTW!):
24904

I mixed up a bit more paint than I needed, so I got creative:
2490524906
Yellow is such a boring color...

For those that are considering doing their own, I used 4oz of paint (+hardener, +reducer) for all 4 calipers and brackets. Now, what to do with the 12oz I have left!

Today's tool review is the Harbor Freight 20oz gravity feed HVLP Paint Spray Gun (I gave it away above): AWESOME! Tool seems well made, and performs well. I mean, if I can use it and good results, anyone should be able to!

Xusia what color of paint did you use & where did you get the paint?

Thanks