Roadster "To be, or not to be"?

[RdstrRod]

These are the questions….. Actually, I'm just seeking some thoughts on a few things while contemplating a Roadster build.

Powder Coated Frame: Worth it or not? Personally, I like the idea. I have had several old motorcycle frames done this way. The only downside is having to drill out all the component mounting holes before assembly. What does FFR do?

Power Steering: Good idea or bad? This car will be a street cruiser. Both girlfriend & I will be driving it. I'm old enough to have driven cars without it, while she is not. I want it to be fun & easy to drive.

Power Brakes: Same as Power Steering above.

Roll Bar(s): 1 or 2? Is this just a personal choice, "how it looks" thing? I'm thinking just 1. Any pros or cons?

Thanks, Rod (aka RdstrRod) in frigid Michigan.

[first time builder]

Welcome,
Powder coat ,yes wether you buy from FFR or do later depends on if you are doing any frame mods. FFR does good job very little cleaning needed for mounting components.
Power Steering, car is so light not at all needed.
Power Brakes, if I build another would put them in, car stops good without, but pedal pressure is needed. If girlfriend is to drive a big yes on the power brakes.
Roll bars are a personal preference.

Kenny

[skullandbones]

Hi Rod,

It's frigid in AZ too. We had a cold front come thru.

Powder coat frame: good value. If you want a different color, have it done locally. Didn't find the need to drill out many of the holes.

Power Steering: love it. I carry a lot of castor with the PS (better steering charactistics and still easy to steer).

Power Brakes: I would rather have the feel of the dual MC with bias adjuster but some people wouldn't have one without PB.

Roll Bars: like the look of the dual hoops. Also, like the larger 2 inch on mine (personal preference). I guess single is more period correct. If you want to keep your girl friend, maybe two is a better idea. Or if you don't want to keep her, get one (a friend has a story about that maybe he will chime in).

Which ever decisions you make, I'm sure you can't go wrong because that will give you an excuse to work on it some more!

Good luck,

WEK.

[MPTech]

And yet, more opinions.........

Powder Coated Frame: unless you can get a screaming deal locally or plan on a lot of frame mods and cutting/welding, this is a very good value from FFR and most would recommend it.

Power Steering: I drove mine during go-kart without it. Is it driveable, yes. Did I like it, NO. At slow speeds and backing up, it is a challenge. Your girl-friend will definitely complain! If money is the issue, go with a NEW donor-style setup. Jeff Kleiner has documented it VERY well and it will only run you about $200 over a manual and the installation is no big deal. Drive a Cobra without and form your own opinion. Many have switched from manual to power, very few switch power to manual.

Power Brakes: Similar to PS. Not very expensive to do and much easier during the build than upgrading later. Again, drive one without before you make your decision. I have both. Now, If I was to do it over, I'd go Hydro boost vs. the vacu-boost I installed.

Roll Bar(s): I went 2. Safety and piece-of-mind were my primary Pros. Also, if you do any tracking, a passenger cannot ride unless they have a roll-bar (this includes no instructors too).

[Jester]

Welcome to the forum

These cars can be personalized to your preference and to your budget - you can always add to the car or change it up in time.

As previously posted - powder coated frame is a good value and is high quality from FFR - I recommend this as it is one less thing to deal with and is delivered ready to build - unless you want a custom color.

Power steering and power brakes - this is a personal choice. When I ordered my Mk4, Dave Smith recommended building and driving as designed and if not satisfied you can upgrade later. I did just that and I really like the feel of both the manual brakes and steering - My car is a weekend driver and I couldn't be happier. If you are considering power brakes - these would be easier to install during the build vs after.

Roll bars - again depends on what you are going for. I went with the added safety of dual roll bars - plus I like the look

Best of luck and take your time - before you know it you will be finished and onto your next build

[Gumball]

Yet another opinion -

Powder Coated Frame - A couple considerations if not getting this from FFR are whether it's cost efficient to have a local coater handle it and, probably more limiting, does your local coater have an oven large enough for the entire chassis. Many will use other coatings, such as paint or POR-15, but I'm partial to powdercoat. Also, if you're thinking you'd like the frame any color other than black, you're pretty much guaranteed to have to paint it or have a local coater handle the chore. As others pointed out, if you're going to do any substantial modification to the chassis, then perhaps it's best to get it bare.

Power Steering - Personally, one of the things I like about these cars is the simplicity and old-school feel. In my opinion, power steering defeats that trait.

Power Brakes - See above... power steering.

Roll Bars - Lots of arguments here... I have a single bar on the driver's side because I'm going for an S/C look on my car. But, for street use, roll bars aren't really the best thing, unless you're going to use a high back seat, pad the bar, or add a head rest... nothing like having your head (or your passengers) contact a solid steel bar in the event of an accident. Unless you're wearing a helmet, that can be fatal. Lots of other valid arguments for a passenger side bar above, but I just don't like the look. I guess that if I really wanted full protection, then I'd go for a one-piece bar that extends across the entire width of the cockpit.

[68GT500MAN]

Welcome to the forum.

If you want black and do not plan any modifications, order it powder coated from the factory.

I have dual roll bars on my roadster and would do it again if building another one.
Doug

[Avalanche325]

Powdercoat - definately. From FFR if you want black and not doing frame mods. WAY less hassle.

Power steering - Yes. Wide stickey tires in a parking lot are no fun. Autocross or track days with manual will wear you out.

Power brakes - If using the donor / Mustang setup, yes. If going Wilwood and / or dual master cylinder, No.

Dual roll bars - If your girlfriends head is worth saving or you want an instructor for autocross or track day, yes. If you really think you need a new girlfriend anyway, no.

[edwardb]

Can't add too much to what has already been posted.

PC from FFR? Yes, if you want black and not planning a lot of modifications (e.g. welding) it's a good value. Mounting hole clean-out is not a big issue. Usually not required.

Power steering? One of the most widely debated topics on this and the other forum. You will get alot of passion on both sides of the question. I can only cite my experience. Built my Mk3 with manual steering and power brakes. Love the brakes, disappointed I didn't do the power steering. My Mk4 build now underway will be power steering from the start. Yes, can be added later, but not nearly so easily. Two other comments about PS. Most agree it needs to be adjustable so not too much boost. There are a couple ways to do that. Also, don't just think about the effort. As skullandbones said, PS allows a more aggressive front end alignment which enhances the driving in general.

Power brakes? 100% agree with Avalance325. If donor brakes, use power assist. That's what they were designed for. If aftermarket, e.g. Wilwood, leave manual. That's what they were designed for.

Dual roll bars? Strictly personal preference, appearance, and as pointed out, could be a rule requirement for certain events. I'm really not convinced they add a big safety factor though. I can't imagine what it would take to get one of these the wrong way up.

Not sure where you're at in MI. But a Mk4 about 50-60% done in my garage in SE MI if you're interested and haven't seen one in person. My Mk3 will come back out of storage when winter is done, whenever that's going to be this year.

[MPTech]

dual roll bars - ......... If you really think you need a new girlfriend anyway, no.

too funny!

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Dual rollbars - my wife's head is as valuable to her as mine is to me.
Power steering - I had the travelingbuilder convert mine earlier this year from manual to power - love it!
Power brakes - I had the travelingbuilder convert mine to power brakes too. Don't know if it is the IRS but even with the brake pedal mod it took a lot of leg to really stop it.

Powder coat - almost 14k miles and it is still nice and shiny black.

[Mesa Mike]

Go with 1" roll bar, power brakes and power steering

[CraigS]

PS and PB or full wilwood. One of the venders makes a full width rollbar but naturally I can't find it right now. that is what I would do.

[tirod]

Au contraire - out of a spirit of thinking thru things.

Powder coat. It's just a layer of rust prevention. For 1/3 the cost, you can primer it in a rust preventative spray and roll on some Rustoleum in one of their exotic shades. Powder coating requires all the same prep as painting a frame, it's becoming apparent that it's not a show car quality job coming out of the factory, just workmanlike. If you need a better finish, or simply prefer a different color, it's easy enough to do it yourself with much less expense. It's a kit - the point is DIY.

Power steering and brakes. The reason it became popular is two fold - builders using power components without power, and escalating their build to the daily driver/luxury car level. Power accessories weren't stock in the day, and aren't a critical need. Choosing the spindles and control arms that deliver the correct Steering Angle Inclination means the tire doesn't have to literally lift the control arm at the ends of it's travel - where all the extra effort was found in earlier builds. That happened when a lot of PS/PB parts were used from the donor, and because a lot of the chassis science isn't well known.

OEM cars typically use about 9 degrees of SAI, the kit with strut adapters on lower spindles was pushing 18. That was the source of the problem - donor parts to reduce expense came with an engineering price. Same for the brakes. The donor has brakes biased for a 60/40 weight distribution, plus the leverage ratios on the pedal and hydraulic multiplication of the cylinders made it all wrong for a car with no booster and 50/50 weight. Looking at other cars like Vettes and Vipers, you see almost equal sizes rotors and calipers front and back. The leading edge of manual brake installation on kits is about the same, front calipers all the way around with rotors the same. That means you don't have to install a proportioning valve on the fronts and dial them down - which takes a lot of braking power out of the system.

If it's all donor, install all the the power parts and it will work as a system, but it's still not optimal - it won't be as good as it could be, in the same realm as other cars like it mentioned earlier. That's why a lot of builders go to a full aftermarket brake set up with all the parts provided by a vendor matched for high performance. Not a collection of stuff from a donor not intended for how that car is built.

It brings up another related issue in the weight distribution - where does the battery go? The kit is all race car about it, trunk mounting it in the rear. That puts more weight on the back tires, where it is already known to exceed 51% in a lot of builds. It's another 50 pounds on the wrong end of the car, plus the voltage drop of longer cables, and add in it's a horrible place to do maintenance. These cars tend to sit for long periods, climbing into the trunk to clip on a battery charger becomes a chore. To avoid all that, mount the battery up front - better weight distribution, shorter cables, easier to get to. It's what they did to the originals - they knew about trunk mounting but didn't. The ironic thing is that the original race car builders didn't do something "race car" because it looks cool. F5 sells it that way because people do.

Roll bars? For the sake of discussion, I'll ask - how many less accidents would occur if the owners knew they'd get injured if they get out of shape on the public roads? How many still get head injuries even tho they have bars? Take a long look at the competition cage required for class racers and ask if two show chrome hoops are going to help you as much as knowing you actually have limits you need to respect? We all drive cars too fast with no cage at all, thinking the roof is, the reality isn't pleasant. We are simply ignoring the facts and making decisions based on risk acceptance, not common sense. If you add the hoops, don't for a minute think you can't discover some new way to get yourself hurt. They are "race car" dress up, not a real competition cage.

Food for thought, which is what was asked for.

[aks801]

@tirod: great reply (IMHO)! There's some real wisdom in there. FWIW, I plan on: non-donor, POR15 for the chassis, no PS or PB, and a removable passenger bar.

[RdstrRod]

Many thanks to all who responded. Lots of opinions either way. I guess I'll just have to go with my gut feeling on some of it. This forum is amazing. Looking through many of the posts, I see a bunch of tips & tricks from you people who have built these cars. Some of them I'd like to do. But many, although desirable, are probably out of my range of capability. I would like to build this car as simply as possible, and as quickly as possible. I want to drive it, not spend the rest of my life building it. My goal is for a fun, easy to drive street cruiser, not a race car.
So….one more question:
The T5 trans I'm considering can be fitted with either a .63 fifth gear ratio, or a .80 ratio. Pardon my ignorance, but which one will give the lowest engine RPM? (Note: engine is a 306/340HP with 3.55 rear axle.)

Rod

[edwardb]

Many thanks to all who responded. Lots of opinions either way. I guess I'll just have to go with my gut feeling on some of it. This forum is amazing. Looking through many of the posts, I see a bunch of tips & tricks from you people who have built these cars. Some of them I'd like to do. But many, although desirable, are probably out of my range of capability. I would like to build this car as simply as possible, and as quickly as possible. I want to drive it, not spend the rest of my life building it. My goal is for a fun, easy to drive street cruiser, not a race car.

All the various mods, changes, custom parts, etc. can be nice and for many are part of the enjoyment. But hard to say any are "required." The car built stock as supplied by FFR is very capable. Build it your way. The Ford Racing 306, T5 trans and 3.55 diff is a well proven and excellent combination.


The T5 trans I'm considering can be fitted with either a .63 fifth gear ratio, or a .80 ratio. Pardon my ignorance, but which one will give the lowest engine RPM? (Note: engine is a 306/340HP with 3.55 rear axle.)

.63 fifth gear will give a lower engine RPM. It will vary a little depending on the tires, but at 2000 rpm with a 3.55 diff, .63 final drive will be about 70 mph, .80 final drive about 55 mph. There are many out there, but I use this calculator: http://www.tremec.com/calculadora.php

[Jeff Kleiner]

...My goal is for a fun, easy to drive street cruiser, not a race car.
So….one more question:
The T5 trans I'm considering can be fitted with either a .63 fifth gear ratio, or a .80 ratio. Pardon my ignorance, but which one will give the lowest engine RPM? (Note: engine is a 306/340HP with 3.55 rear axle.)



Last question first---for a street cruiser go with the .63 ratio and remember that fifth is your overdrive highway gear. I built a customer car with that exact engine/trans/rearend combination and you drop into 5th. gear at 55+ MPH and just roll. Often you'll see the .8 ratio used for cars that do more track time with the purpose being to reduce the jump between 4th and 5th. Not really applicable in your case.

Back to PS/PB; I'm sure most are tired of hearing me preach the merits of power steering for a track car (almost mandatory) but given your stated goal of "a fun, easy to drive street cruiser" you need to give serious consideration to incorporating them as well. Mandatory, no... making for a more pleasant car, yes. The customer car that I mentioned above was for a gentleman whose stated goal was the same as yours, strictly a cruiser. He followed my recommendation as did the owner of another roadster I recently finished which will be mostly a street car with an ocassional autocross. Both owners are completely satisfied with their decision and are enjoying driving the wheels off of their cars! Sometimes detractors will cite cost or complexity but to me those are not valid arguements; PS & PB can be done using OEM parts for $400-$500 and OEM parts last 100,000+ miles.

Good luck and enjoy your build whichever direction you decide to go!

Jeff

[Avalanche325]

They are "race car" dress up, not a real competition cage.

I do agree that the roll bar(s) do not constitute a modern compitition cage. However, don't forget that Dave Smith himself flipped one of these and is still around running the company we love because of the roll bar. On a Factory Five, the roll bars are functional, not just cosmetic. I hope cosmetics are the only function mine will ever perform.

There is the old descussion that the best way to make people safe drivers is to remove seat belts, air bags and ABS. Then weld a 10 inch sharpened spike in the center of the steering wheel pointed at the drivers chest.

I just did my first go kart today. I agree that these cars demand respect. Taking it very easy still let me know that this is one serious car.