Can the 818R Be Street Legal?

[EricScottZehnder]

I'm most interested in building an 818 with 2 working seats that has the full-bore front and rear aero kit, don't care about radios, heat, AC or anything else. I just want a crazy fast car that is ONLY about driving. However, I do want to be able to take it around winding roads, not just race tracks.

I hear that using the R suspension would be a bad idea because it would be too stiff. I also hear that street legal cars need to have a windshield (and wiper?). Technically, the tiny windscreen on the R could be considered a windshield, yes? I know Ariel Atoms have a tiny piece of plastic as a windshield and they're US road legal.

Other than this, though, can the 818R be made road legal?

[AZPete]

Each state has different regulations so you should check with the MI DMV to see what you need to be street legal. Here in Arizona I think all we need is sun screen and a hat. :eek:

[wleehendrick]

Another thing to consider is ground clearance. An R with the race splitter and lower ride height will have major problems with speed bumps, dips, road crown, etc...

I ordered the street splitter for my S and I'm a bit concerned about my driveway. I'll find out when I get there much of an issue it is.

[flynntuna]

On FFR's Facebook page, they said it would be easy to put a street windshield on the R. And that the area on the frames where the windshield mounts are the same on both frames.

[Rasmus]

Started looking into this yesterday for my state, Nevada.

I must have the following installed and working:

Mirrors
Steering
Frame
Headlights
Taillights
Turn Signals
Parking Lights
Brake Lights
Brakes
Horn
Muffler
Windshield Wipers
Emergency Brake

The following are optional but if installed must be safe:

Windshield
Side Glass
Rear Glass
Air Bags
Safety Belts, Shoulder Harness

Notice how the windshield is optional but windshield wipers are required. :rolleyes:

[EricScottZehnder]

Another thing to consider is ground clearance. An R with the race splitter and lower ride height will have major problems with speed bumps, dips, road crown, etc...

I ordered the street splitter for my S and I'm a bit concerned about my driveway. I'll find out when I get there much of an issue it is.

That's why I was wondering about suspension differences. I'd like to have it adjustable on the car that way I could conceivably drive to the track with the suspension height extended to a good 4.5-5" and then lower it down for the track.

[billjr212]

Keep in mind you will also want to wear a helmet even on the street or otherwise address the fact that the roll bar support will be right next to your head (I had started a thread about this issue a while back).

Going with the real windshield as mentioned above also limits the chance you will loose an eye or worse first time something comes up off the road at you.

[wleehendrick]

That's why I was wondering about suspension differences. I'd like to have it adjustable on the car that way I could conceivably drive to the track with the suspension height extended to a good 4.5-5" and then lower it down for the track.

The suspension is basically the same (spring rates and shocks are different on the R of course). The suspension geometry is optimized for 4.5" ride height on the S. To properly drop the suspension for track use you mount all the control arms 1" higher on the chassis. You can manipulate ride height with the coilovers, but this is not ideal; you mess up the geometry.

So unless you're going to re-build your suspension for every track day, you'll have to decide how you want it optimized/aligned... street or track. Dropping or lifting it with the coilovers will result in compromises.

[EricScottZehnder]

Keep in mind you will also want to wear a helmet even on the street or otherwise address the fact that the roll bar support will be right next to your head (I had started a thread about this issue a while back).

This is something I've considered. It seems like it would be a prime area for smacking your head. That being said, I like the idea of the R as a "no f**ks given" sort of car. With the S it looks like some kind of topless exotic except I'm not prepared to spend almost any money on making the interior anything but functional.

[SixStar]

I'm going to make mine street legal here in Colorado just because it's super easy.

[THE ITALIAN]

There quite a few spec racer roadsters running on street & course, the only deciding factors should be ,,,opening doors and the full cage which can be padded(& usually is even for racing)ever bang your helmet onto an unpadded roll bar ? Pretty loud.
None of these cars will give you a "cadillac" ride, so if you want the R go for it. Both cars have an almost identical set up, and it is a race car set up. There is no reason you can't incorporate full race needs with all the street requirements.

[Xusia]

All good comments, and I'd like to add my own.

You have mentioned wanting an "R", but you haven't mentioned anything that requires an "R". I point this out because you indicated you wanted a no comprises car that can be run on both the track AND the street. The "S" is that car! Just because it wasn't designed strictly for track use doesn't mean it's not potent. And don't forget that most of the "R" equipment can be used on the "S" as well.

Want the better shocks? Just order it with them. You don't want an interior? No problem, just build it how you want it. You want the "R" aero package? You can use it! <-- It is optimized for the lower, 3.5" ride height, which I believe is just too low for the street. Also, it would be irresponsible to be going fast enough on the street to actually need that kind of aero; just sayin'...

The "S" comes with the full windscreen, lights, and all the bits you'll need to make it street legal (except maybe a heater/defroster if your state requires that), though you might need to weld in a harness bar (BIG DEAL - that's EASY!). Seems like the "S is the easiest path forward to me, and the only thing you are giving up is the additional chassis structure (which actually makes the "R" heavier than the "S", assuming otherwise identical builds).

Something to think about...

[RM1SepEx]

ANYTHING can be made street legal, requirements vary. Every state can provide you with detailed requirements, and even then a favorable inspection station can always help!

[Grintch]

It's possible to deal with the ride height issues with tires. Just spec out your race tires so they are a smaller diameter than the street tires. Then when you switch tires you get a free, no geometry change ride height adjustment. Unfortunately it seems that the space in the front for taller tires is not there making this harder.

[metros]

All good comments, and I'd like to add my own.

You have mentioned wanting an "R", but you haven't mentioned anything that requires an "R". I point this out because you indicated you wanted a no comprises car that can be run on both the track AND the street. The "S" is that car! Just because it wasn't designed strictly for track use doesn't mean it's not potent. And don't forget that most of the "R" equipment can be used on the "S" as well.

Want the better shocks? Just order it with them. You don't want an interior? No problem, just build it how you want it. You want the "R" aero package? You can use it! <-- It is optimized for the lower, 3.5" ride height, which I believe is just too low for the street. Also, it would be irresponsible to be going fast enough on the street to actually need that kind of aero; just sayin'...

The "S" comes with the full windscreen, lights, and all the bits you'll need to make it street legal (except maybe a heater/defroster if your state requires that), though you might need to weld in a harness bar (BIG DEAL - that's EASY!). Seems like the "S is the easiest path forward to me, and the only thing you are giving up is the additional chassis structure (which actually makes the "R" heavier than the "S", assuming otherwise identical builds).

Something to think about...

This is what I was thinking throughout the whole thread. What specifically is drawing you to the R over the S?

[FFRSpec72]

Another thing to consider is ground clearance. An R with the race splitter and lower ride height will have major problems with speed bumps, dips, road crown, etc...


I doubt this as I run my challenge car on he street with the air dam and no issues, I have 3" of ground clearance on frame and less then 1" on air dam

[wleehendrick]

I doubt this as I run my challenge car on he street with the air dam and no issues, I have 3" of ground clearance on frame and less then 1" on air dam

Not doubting you, but don't you scrape all the time? I have the factory 'track' spoiler on my Z; it's at stock ride height and I have to be careful. Onedifference is that the Roadster has much less front overhang; the 818 splitter is further forward of the front wheels making it more prone to bottom out.

[FrankRizzo]

Keep in mind you will also want to wear a helmet even on the street or otherwise address the fact that the roll bar support will be right next to your head (I had started a thread about this issue a while back).

Going with the real windshield as mentioned above also limits the chance you will loose an eye or worse first time something comes up off the road at you.

It only took a couple of rocks whacking me at highway speed to convince me that a helmet was a good idea.

[FrankRizzo]

I know Ariel Atoms have a tiny piece of plastic as a windshield and they're US road legal.


That really depends on where you are. I'm in Oregon, and just sold my Atom because the DMV was getting militant about finding you, and revoking your plates. The same thing is happening in Washington State as well. They've go so far as to have people do image searches on Google looking for plates from their state! Talk about INSANE!

BTW, new guy, just sold the Atom, thinking about an 818 to replace it.

[David Hodgkins]

Welcome Frank!

:)

[Rasmus]

Notice how the windshield is optional but windshield wipers are required.

Asked the Nevada DMV about the No Windshield but Wipers Still Required thing. They wrote:



Good afternoon,

If the vehicle does not have a windshield, it does not need windshield wipers to register. You will need to contact the Emission Lab at 702-486-4981 regarding the smog inspection.
Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,
Nicole Serrano
DMV Technician I
Central Services Division
Phone Room

[Xusia]

That really depends on where you are. I'm in Oregon, and just sold my Atom because the DMV was getting militant about finding you, and revoking your plates. The same thing is happening in Washington State as well. They've go so far as to have people do image searches on Google looking for plates from their state! Talk about INSANE!

BTW, new guy, just sold the Atom, thinking about an 818 to replace it.

Hi Frank. Fellow Oregonian here. Are you located in the Portland area? I saw an Atom at a local Mini [Cooper] shop up there a few years ago - wondering if it was yours. :)

[longislandwrx]

That really depends on where you are. I'm in Oregon, and just sold my Atom because the DMV was getting militant about finding you, and revoking your plates. The same thing is happening in Washington State as well. They've go so far as to have people do image searches on Google looking for plates from their state! Talk about INSANE!

BTW, new guy, just sold the Atom, thinking about an 818 to replace it.

That's crazy! for a while wasn't the only US distributor in Oregon!?! What is the reasoning, safety concerns?

[Santiago]

As Xusia suggests, I think a good step-back-and-reflect is needed to figure out what's driving that "want" of an R over an S.

For example, if you're looking for the "look" of the R rather than the S than you're really not after the "no-compromise" performance after all. There's going to be very little given up in terms of dynamic performance in a properly built S-car. You might lose a tick of torsional rigidity, but unless you're a seriously high-level driver (really-really high level) you're never going to notice it (or better, your performance on track is not really going to be impacted from it compared to the impact you as a driver have on it). This isn't some SN-95 street Mustang that's getting caged; the S-car has an insanely stiff chassis to begin with...

Last word on the "want" for no-holds barred performance on the street: what are you going to use it for? It's the street, so who cares if you give up a little there - you're not supposed to be pushing 10/10ths there anyway. I get wanting "no-compromises" on track because really there's only one thing you're there to do and you're doing it with like minded/willing people. Once you are on the street the whole concept is confused. I mean think about it, you're not legally running race rubber anyway, so say bye-bye to 1/2 of the car's performance potential. Welcome to street (read: a world of compromise). And what about that tick of value from added rigidity? How many g's are you planning to pull on the street anyway? Oh yeah, aero? Its major performance value kicks in at about 80mph and only gets really interesting around 100mph and up. How often do you think you'll see these speeds on the street? So my point is that any street use is going to keep much of the car's real performance potential out of our grasp.

If you are going to track the car, then it makes more sense to set it up for the track and live with whatever compromises you'll have on the street. Taller tires as Grintch suggests is a great trick (I do it on my S197 Mustang) if it gives you the clearance. I also run spring rates on my occasionally street-driven Mustang that are 3x the factory rates. Do I commute in the car anymore? No. So who cares if it's "compromised" on the street in terms of comfort, etc. At the end of the day, virtually all cars are compromised in one way or another. Having a clear sense of the car's real use is what makes some compromises more sensible than others.

Having said that, I think you need to seriously consider what safety you're giving up by running an R on the street. FrankRizzo pointed out that a helmet is a very good idea, especially if you're thinking you'd like to hit the highway and "kick it up a notch." Last time I was driving through Michigan the size of the bugs alone would worry me about using an R w/o a helmet. Sure, some motorcycle guys swear by going out w/o a helmet, but then their also not driving around in a contained vehicle.

That brings me to my real worry, and that is the bar right next to your head. Padding that is not going to be of much consolation to your head w/o a helmet; really, the proper padding for a bar is very hard and the soft comfort padding is not hard enough. Sure, tooling around the local cruise circuit will be comfy with padding of some sort, but that's not the time to think about what that bar is doing to you - it's during an accident. With a proper safety set up, you would have a helmet potentially impacting an SFI padded bar - assuming you didn't wear a H&N device and/or have a containment seat (take a look at the latest pics of the blue R, they swapped out that entry level seat with one that has head restraints). That safety set up greatly limits your exposure to that bar in a roll-over or side-impact. Now think about how you'll be equipped driving around on the street. Without all that sort of gear limiting your head from banging on that bar (padded or otherwise), consider what risk your head is in. We all take on our own risks, so I'm not saying this as a be-all/end-all, just something to seriously consider.

For myself, I wouldn't run an R on the street for that bar alone. If it were me wanting something like what you describe, I'd get an S and build it like an R.

Best,
-j

[tirod]

Now that all the technics have been discussed, it's obvious you could drive both on the street. The R would have to be driven at dangerously high speeds on public roads to even notice the incremental difference in performance. In fact, unless the driver was a track professional, it would take data logging to notice any difference on the street.

Nope, what the OP really wants is bragging rights, the elephant in the room is right there in the first post. He wants a no holds barred race car on the street. Same reason some people drive used race cars on the street - it's race car. It's why Phil Specter drove the prototype Daytona Coupe on the streets of LA. He gave it up because 1) it was more than he could stand 2) it endangered his license too much.

Same anecdotal story of a supervisor and friend who was stationed in Germany in the early '70s - a muscle car came up on the market among the servicemen there that was known to cause a lot of demotions due to speeding tickets with the German Police. He bought it nonetheless - he'd drag raced a Mustang prior to enlistment - and as the story goes, he was able to shake off the Police on the Autobahn easily. Nonetheless, they aren't dumb, they would pick up the chase the next time where they left off, and continued to home in on where he lived.

He sold it when they were two blocks from his apartment. :)

Because race car? Be careful what you ask for. That commercial about driving thru a herd of dinosaurs is exactly what we are dealing with on America's streets. Other drivers may not be impressed that someone can whip around them and be in the next county in 5 minutes. They can and will aggressively block you in traffic, never forget there are trees on the roadway with your name on them. Their only point in life is to make an impression on your skull - harshly - which is why they haven't been cut down for firewood. It's the #1 injury producer in the suburban neighborhoods Roadsters seem to frequent, I don't see the 818 getting a pass on that.

I want a race car, too, but I know what voice in my head is saying it, and it's not the mature responsible adult one. Oh no, not at all.

[C.Plavan]

If you drive the 818R on the street, you better be wearing helmets. The roll bar is ON the side of your head.

[nkw8181]

Man y'all have given me a lot to think about. I didn't realize the danger of the bar next to your head. I've been planning on building an R and driving on the street myself with the idea that it is easier to make a racecar street legal then a street car ready to race. This is the way I understand it at least. Let me ask this, what would need to be done to the s to make it race worthy? Aka rollcage requirements exc exc. I haven't raced before but want to get into it with this car but if I'm honest with myself it will be driven far more on the street then track. The other thing I like about the r was the no windshield look. If I can order it as an option I would do that. I had planned on ordering the windshield if I do the r so I could switch been them depending on what I want at the time.

[Rasmus]

Helmet-wise. Please ensure you're wearing a SA (Special Applications) rated helmet and not a M (Motorcycle), when driving the R around.


1) The SA helmets must have a Nomex fabric liner and are therefore more fire resistant for auto racing.

2) The SA standard allows a minimum eyeport size that is smaller than the minimum allowed for the M standard

3) The SA helmets must pass a test designed to simulate impact with a rollbar.

It doesn't mean that an M rated helmet can't pass the rollbar impact test it just means they didn't test it. Plus when you do go to an autocross or a trackday you'll have a helmet that will pass tech.

[THE ITALIAN]

The roll cage on the S is compliant for race, you just don't have the extra side protection of an R ( not ALL )
You CAN use the windshield on an R also and remove (if you like) for racing
The high cage can be padded, you would do that regardless on the track or street- you could always wear one of those Bunny hats (with long ears) on street runs for added padding.
If your going fast enough to hurt yourself (your head) on the street (with padding) you shouldn't be driving a car.
Including the A-hole factor (including myself) and being a roadster owner, the street is nowhere to race around period, anything can happen in a second.

[Xusia]

Let me ask this, what would need to be done to the s to make it race worthy?

Technically, the 818S is "race worthy" as designed, but sanctioning bodies may have rules/regulations that require modification. You'll have to look those up and be aware. So rather than buying a production car (i.e. Miata) and stripping it down, adding a roll cage, etc., to make it ready to race, you just buy an 818S and build it accordingly.

One thing I'd like to say - and this is just my own opinion - is that having a dual purpose car is always a compromise. If it has some creature comforts to make it easier to live with on the street, performance will be less than the same build dedicated to racing (though in the case of the 818, it already has so much more performance than other cars I would put in it's class, that this probably isn't much of an issue). At the very least because of the additional weight of said creature comforts, but also because of potential parasitic power losses. If it is a "pure" race car, then driving it on the street will not be as nice and enjoyable as it could (harsh ride, no heat, lots of noise, etc.). Either way it's a trade off - you can't have it both ways. You have to decide which compromises you are going make.

[DodgyTim]

I'm building an 818R for the track, but with street registration. I agree with most of the comments above, but there are a number of reasons for me to choose R over S:

1 In Australia the car has to be tested above 4000 Nm per degree torsional stiffness, the R is more likely to pass, though the S may pass
2 If I have a windshield the wipers have to work, sweep 80+% of the screen, two speeds, washer bottles, demister etc etc.
3 The R aero (at track speeds) won't work with the screen, so then do you take the screen off at the track? Not really practical for me
4 If I have doors that open they have to be tested for side intrusion and burst proof double locks. No doors, no testing required.
5 Having an unregistered "race only" car is a pain, getting a tune or other work done requires trailering. I end up driving them on the road for short "tests", without registration, which means no insurance cover, which means lose the house if anything bad happens.


My plan is minimalist interior, good seats and harnesses, helmets for myself and regular passengers, safety glasses for other passengers for very short "how does it go" demo's

[Santiago]

The roll cage on the S is compliant for race, you just don't have the extra side protection of an R...

If your going fast enough to hurt yourself (your head) on the street (with padding) you shouldn't be driving a car.

Just want to clarify some things.

1. Cage compliance is rule/organization specific. So if you really need to know before you buy, look into these and contact a race director with questions.
2. The trouble a few of us have pointed out with the R's side bar isn't a "comfort" matter, it's a matter of safety. So making a sharp "a-hole" right hander on the street and tapping your head on the bar isn't really what concerns us. I worry about accidents, either car-to-car, impact w/stationary objects, or roll-overs.

To put an easy scenario in play, say a car T-bones you in an intersection (even at fairly low speeds), you're head is going to whack right into that bar (assuming you don't plan to wear a lot of safety gear on the street). Padding and bunny-ear hats are not going to save your un-helmeted head from serious injury. I could care less about the occasional merely-uncomfortable tap on the head; we're looking at hard contacts. An SA helmet has been specifically tested to withstand multiple impacts with exactly such a bar as is sitting inches from your head in the R car. Your skull has not.

You could be the safest & most responsible driver on the streets, but that doesn't isolate you from all the other nut-jobs on the street. That's all.

For someone like nkw8181, you might consider that the S car is (a) already far more of a race car than most any production car and (b) already well equipped for HPDE/open-lapping track days as well as time-trial format competitions. After all, it was specifically designed for exactly this sort of use. The "cage" requirement some of us are mentioning is really only a wheel-to-wheel concern.

Best,
-j

[nkw8181]

Thanks! My thoughts for now lean towards the s. When stripping the car and just save it all till I make my trip up to factory five and that should seal which car I build.

Nolan

[THE ITALIAN]

YES , there are a lot of factors to consider for tracking the car and with what type of track & sanctions. belts & seats, fuel cell, fire, changing tires, dash electrical, even decibel, so even though you buy an R, either you plan to race it in a specific class and prepare it that way, or you just want to have the added protection.
This is why the S is an easy choice for most. the extra expense to have both options could be very high and you still have a "wet" factor to consider after all of this, a hard top. There will always be a danger of the other guy on the street, ask a M/C rider. Smog remains state to state.
A helmet on the street will impair your vision & hearing, so with that ?

[Grintch]

The roll cage on the S is compliant for race, you just don't have the extra side protection of an R ( not ALL )
You CAN use the windshield on an R also and remove (if you like) for racing
The high cage can be padded, you would do that regardless on the track or street- you could always wear one of those Bunny hats (with long ears) on street runs for added padding.
If your going fast enough to hurt yourself (your head) on the street (with padding) you shouldn't be driving a car.
Including the A-hole factor (including myself) and being a roadster owner, the street is nowhere to race around period, anything can happen in a second.

The S roll cage is NOT race complaint. First of all because it is not a roll cage. It's roll BAR is highly questionable for trackday (non racing) use for many organizations (SCCA, NASA, etc.) given the attachment of the rear braces to the lateral X brace instead of the main hoop. And roll cage padding is required for race use, but it is still not enough to be really safe for an unprotected head. An R doesn't have a windshield, so you will need eye protection. A helmet does that while also providing impact protection against the cage. You could certainly run to the store or do other short trips with just some sunglasses, but I would suggest a helmet for any long trip.

[THE ITALIAN]

The S roll cage is NOT race complaint. First of all because it is not a roll cage. It's roll BAR is highly questionable for trackday (non racing) use for many organizations (SCCA, NASA, etc.) given the attachment of the rear braces to the lateral X brace instead of the main hoop. And roll cage padding is required for race use, but it is still not enough to be really safe for an unprotected head. An R doesn't have a windshield, so you will need eye protection. A helmet does that while also providing impact protection against the cage. You could certainly run to the store or do other short trips with just some sunglasses, but I would suggest a helmet for any long trip.

No pissing match here, I said in previous posts, "some", this is some events. yes you can install a windshield on an R, & you can remove it, Depending on the type of race and event, the car can be tracked. All races are not head to head. It is a continuos bar. So at a track day or event, all S's will be sidelined?. No. why own it?
No serious racer would race full or circuit competition without full gear, nor would they allow it, most of us are familiar with the rules, we know the S is not a full race car, that is why there are 2, as with roadsters.

[Grintch]

I checked the latest NASA & SCCA rules and both have watered down their trackday / TT roll bar rules. So the S would likely be allowed.

Real racing requires a cage (and an FIA fuel cell that isn't included on the R model). So if you want a real racing car that you can drive on the street you need an R. But if you just want a car that looks like a race car or a trackday car that will see mostly street use an S is probably the way to go (possibly with the R models wing and chopped aeroscreen if needed for a more racy look).

[FrankRizzo]

That's crazy! for a while wasn't the only US distributor in Oregon!?! What is the reasoning, safety concerns?

That's just it. They won't TELL you why. Circular reasoning at it's finest.

"What's the problem with it?"
"It's not street legal"

"Why?"
"Because it's an Ariel Atom"

They'll never tell you what the problem is. Just that it's not legal.

And YES, for a few years, the only manufacturer in the US was in Ashland Oregon. Brammo Motorsports.