Racing requirements for fuel tank

[Bill Waters]

Does anyone know what the NASA safety rules require as far as fuel tanks in STR1? I don't find any entry specifying the requirement for fuel cells with foam and /or bladder after a careful review.

Thanks

[Santiago]

Hi Bill,

You'll find it in Section 15 of the CCR (Club Codes and Regulations). The CCR is the "master rule set" that governs all NASA competition classes. Each individual class has supplemental rules, but these often defer back to the CCR. You can find it online here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules

As for fuel cells, these are my two big take-aways. First, not every class requires them. However...and there's always a "however"...IF you have one (regardless of whether or not your class requires them), then you must adhere to the CCR requirements to pass tech. The other big point to note is that some fuel cells that are SCCA approved will not pass tech with NASA (I think the reasoning here is that some cells that the SCCA approves are for forms of racing that NASA doesn't sanction, so there's an inherent lack of a 1:1 match with safety concerns across the two organizations). Anyway, here's Section 15:

15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.

A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.

1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.
2. The cell must contain a bladder that is FIA FT-3 (or higher) rated.
3. The cell should be in a container made of at least 0.036-inch steel, 0.059-inch aluminum, or 0.125-inch Marlex, fully surrounding the bladder.
4. Internal foam baffling should be installed, as per FIA FT3-1999 (or higher).
5. The filler cap, line, vents hoses, etc. should be designed so that no fuel will escape if the car is partially or totally inverted.
6. There should be a small drain hole in the outside box to purge fuel trapped between the bladder and the box.
7. The competitor is responsible for ensuring that the cell, bladder, and components are installed, maintained, and replaced per the manufacturer’s instructions and in accordance with applicable sections of the CCR.
8. The bladder has a date of manufacture and serial number. The competitor is responsible to note this in the front of the vehicle logbook.
9. Bladders older than 5 years should not be used.
10. The competitor is responsible for showing proof of the age of the bladder. It is highly recommended that the receipt for the purchase of the bladder (or entire cell) be stored with the Vehicle Logbook.

15.4.1 Installation
Reinforcements may be added to aid in the installation of the cell, but they shall not attach to the roll cage. Floor structure may be modified to aid in the installation of the cell. Steel location strapping is strongly recommended to keep the fuel cell from dislocating in a crash. Installing a fuel cell that hangs significantly close to the ground or one that is mounted closest to the rear of the vehicle, even if the installation meets with these rules, may be deemed unsafe and therefore excluded from competition.

15.4.2 Rotary-molded cells
Rotary-molded cells are not allowed unless the bladder meets the current FIA FT3 specifications and carries the current FIA FT3 standard certification mark, label, or stamp. Most or all JAZ and RCI brand cells are examples of rotary-molded cells that do not carry such ratings. [Notes: A good fuel cell is made by companies such as ATL or Fuel Safe (other than their entry level models), and should cost $600 or more. Beware of inexpensive “SCCA APPROVED” cells. While SCCA is a fine organization, the stamp of approval found on some safety items may pertain to other forms of racing, and may not be consistent with these rules. Consult an expert before purchase.]

15.4.3 Fuel Cell for Alternative Liquid Fuels
According to leading manufacturers of fuel cells, there is no problem putting alternative fuels into a fuel cell made for gasoline. However, if the cell was previously used for a different fuel, such as gasoline, the bladder should be rinsed, and the foam should be changed. The same is true when switching from an alternative fuel back to gasoline.

Happy motoring!
Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

I'm almost to the point where I need to help design a 818R FIA GT3 spec fuel cell. Stay tuned.

[Santiago]

Tuned indeed!! I think there are more than a couple of us who would be very interested in such an item.

[FFRSpec72]

You don't need a fuel cell, most folks run w/o them since there are restrictions once you go to a fuel cell, I run one and I will not race a car w/o one. It would be nice to have a cell that can do an enduro.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Gents:

Santiago - I read the section you attached in the NASA rules prior to posting (I appreciate your taking the time to include them). However, the CCR also notes that each class stipulates whether a fuel cell is required. Yet the section specifying ST-and STR1 requirements simply doesn't mention fuel tank or cell requirements. Does that mean there is no specific requirement. Like Tony, I'd be inclined to run one, but the paradoxically punitive rules give me pause.

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without internal bladed, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.

Do any of you guys know what the other 818R builders plan - I don't recall seeing anyone mention it?

Thanks, Bill

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Gents:

Santiago - I read the section you attached in the NASA rules prior to posting (I appreciate your taking the time to include them). However, the CCR also notes that each class stipulates whether a fuel cell is required. Yet the section specifying ST-and STR1 requirements simply doesn't mention fuel tank or cell requirements. Does that mean there is no specific requirement. Like Tony, I'd be inclined to run one, but the paradoxically punitive rules give me pause.

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without an internal bladdr, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.

Do any of you guys know what the other 818R builders plan - I don't recall seeing anyone mention it?

Thanks, Bill

[FFRSpec72]

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without internal bladed, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.


So the Boyd tank does not have foam or a slosh tank, not sure I would spend the $$$, I know that FFR is working on a proper fuel cell.

[Bill Waters]

Tony - FFR now includes with the R a fuel tank which fits behind the driver & passenger. It's volume is the subject of a few threads here, but I think it's about 18 or 20 gallons.

I favored the Boyd's because it's constructed of 1/8 inch sheet aluminum, is (by appearances) very well made, includes a fuel pump, has internal baffles and holds 10 gallons of fuel. Though you can get an ATL or other fuel cell reasonably priced, I don't think we'll find one custom built that is. As stout as the Boyd's is, I may just run that.

The tech with whom I finalized my order on Wednesday was not aware of any fuel cell plans.

Bill

[Bill Waters]

Tony - FFR now includes with the R a fuel tank which fits behind the driver & passenger. It's volume is the subject of a few threads here, but I think it's about 18 or 20 gallons.

I favored the Boyd's because it's constructed of 1/8 inch sheet aluminum, is (by appearances) very well made, includes a fuel pump, has internal baffles and holds 10 gallons of fuel. Though you can get an ATL or other fuel cell reasonably priced, I don't think we'll find one custom built that is. As stout as the Boyd's is, I may just run that.

The tech with whom I finalized my order on Wednesday was not aware of any fuel cell plans, though I, too, had thought they were planning one.

Bill

[Mitch Wright]

Happy Thanksgiving

Bill, my car arrives in August and I go back and forth on installing a cell and using the steel tank the chassis comes with. I look forward to seeing what direction you and others end up going.

[Santiago]

Hey Bill,

As I read the rules, the CCR clearly supersedes any class rule when it comes to the installation of a fuel cell. Per 15.4: "All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules" (emph. added). So the ST rules don't require it, and that's fine if you've got an OEM car running a stock fuel tank (which is how many cars in the ST classes run). However, if you decide NOT to run that OEM tank and you put in a fuel cell, then 15.4 goes into effect. This is true regardless of what car you're running.

The 818 is likely going to need to be petitioned on this matter. Since we don't have an actual OEM-style tank that would fit the spirit of the ST rules, the tech officials are just as likely to rule that the tank FFR provides is or is not a fuel cell. If they rule it's a fuel cell, then it must comply with the CCR rules (again, regardless of the fact that the ST rules don't require one). I think the matter needs to be brought up to the national ST director for review. You don't want to show up to your local regional event only to get surprised by how that particular tech official sees the tank your running. Better to have a direct ruling from the top to show him/her that you're running a legal cell.

If I'm not mistaken, the Challenge car has to run a fuel cell that meets the CCR requirements. They won't allow the standard FFR fuel tank to pass tech (NASA has been there, seen that, and made their ruling). Since that's a fairly obvious precedent, I'd be surprised if they made a different call for the 818R. If you're planning on running a fuel cell in the 818R, I'd just get comfy with the idea it's going to have to be one that'll pass the CCR requirements.

Last, let's say that the national ST director rules in favor of making the FFR fuel tank legal as it's shipped. That likely means you're either running that tank or a fuel cell that'll pass CCR requirements; which in turn means you would NOT be able to legally run the Boyd tank under any circumstance (as it is a non-"OEM" tank and a non-legal cell).

Best,
-john

[Sgt.Gator]

Can someone post the dimensions and a picture of the FF "Stock" fuel tank? There are two manufacturers of them locally and if we can't find one that's ready made near those dimensions I'll contact them and see if we can get a batch run.
Thanks!

[Bill Waters]

John - you offer a very clear- headed discussion - thanks. I think the best thing to do is to install a fuel cell which passes all criteria. Do you know how fuel cells are approved (i.e., do manufacturers have to submit samples for testing/inspection, or can individuals do so)?

Sgt.Gator- depending on your goals, you may wish to get the dimension of the Boyd's tank, since the stock one is (I believe) an 18 gallon unit. The Boyd's is 10. I guess the former would be desirable if you were running enduros. See below.

Another thread here stated that Boyd's would not be producing fuel cells. I called them to discuss that, but they are closed until Monday.

Since Boyd's won't be doing them, and since their tank seems ideal otherwise, does anyone out there know the exact dimensions of that tank (so I can have one made by a shop which makes cells, such as ATL)?

Thanks

[C.Plavan]

IMHO I would never run an 818 (R or S) without a proper fuel cell.

Lets see...... mid engine, no bumper, and motor/hot headers inches from fuel tank. No brainer for me. Like I stated, there will be proper fuel cell options available in a month or so- I'm personally involved since I want to be safe :P.

[Santiago]

Hey Bill,

Fuel cell certification has to go through the relevant testing organizations. For general safety items, the two organizations are's SFI and FIA, with the later doing the needed testing on fuel cells. A manufacturer would have to submit their cells to the FIA and have their production line approved. My understanding is that it's a fairly rigorous process in which those samples are tortured. The full requirements are publicly available on FIA's site, so someone like Boyd knows up front what it would take for his tanks to pass. From what I've seen of his tanks, they won't without significant changes (i.e. a bladder is needed or some other approved foam used). I believe his are "just" very-nicely welded up tanks. [No disrespect meant, he's just offering up product meant for a whole different animal/consumer.]

At any rate, it's definitely out of our hands. We just get the blessed stickers to prove certification, and those are delivered to the manufacturer direct from FIA (so their coveted). I've never bought an approved fuel cell, so I'm not sure, but I'd assume they come with stickers already on them (and they're otherwise documented/advertised as having passed certification requirements).

Best,
-john

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, John, Chad;

The reason I'm so persistent on this topic is that I have the same concerns succinctly outlined by Chad above. Reluctant to build my 818 without a cell. I was, after re-reviewing Chad's build site, going to post an inquiry to him inquiring about his stated plans for a Fuel Safe cell; now I know the full story. Very glad to know you are working with a company to develop one.

Thanks,
Bill

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, if you're working with Fuel Safe, they are only a few minutes from my house if I can help in any way I'd be glad to.
Also Pyrotect is very close by too. http://www.pyrotect.com/product.php?productid=166&cat=38&page=1

Like you, I would not go on track, or even on street, without a real fuel cell in this car. There are a lot of thermal and electrical ignition sources next to the tank.

[C.Plavan]

Just giving you guys a heads up. I'm going for a basic Fuel Safe fuel cell in the passenger area. When taking measurements, I did not feel safe with a fuel cell in the 818 location. The back end is really "squishy" with no bumpers. Its crazy to say, but I feel safer with the fuel cell riding shotgun with me. So that is where I am going to be mounting it.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Chad;

I am at the point of trying to get some measurements and get with one of the companies to construct a fuel cell for placement behind the driver (I would like to run a passenger seat); however, that may end up being impractical. It would probably be easy to use an existing, stock-item cell from ATL or another company to run in the passenger location.

Does anyone have any updated information regarding fuel cells for the 818R?


Bill

[ritzman5]

I have not ordered my 818s, and have not seen one. is it not possible to put fuel tank/ cell between front tires? its pretty safe there and should be relatively easy to male fire proof bulk head to seal from drivers compartment. any thoughts on that idea? that would make it easy to find cell with that meet all needs, FIA and size.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I have not ordered my 818s, and have not seen one. is it not possible to put fuel tank/ cell between front tires? its pretty safe there and should be relatively easy to male fire proof bulk head to seal from drivers compartment. any thoughts on that idea? that would make it easy to find cell with that meet all needs, FIA and size.

At least 2 of us are going to put the tank in front. A 15x20x12" should give us about 11 gallons. You will have to cut to get it in.
Bob25114

[Santiago]

Well hell Chad, I hoped you would have had all this sorted out by the time I did my build. Bill, that puts you up on plate buddy! =)
Having a passenger seat for me is very important (I instruct, so taking students out will be mandatory duty for this car).

Everyone has their own sense of the margin of safety they're willing to tolerate, so I understand. Personally I think with an appropriate engine-side firewall and a thin enough tank (if you can fit it forward enough and still have leg-room), fuel should be safe. That would put in place an aluminum sheet (something like 0.90" thick), steel square tubes, 1"-2" of open space, and an aluminum (or steel) can surrounding the bladder as protection. I'm good with that, not so good with putting 50-70 lbs of varying weight on the nose.

I will say I planned on running a small fire suppression unit dedicated for the fuel cell chamber (separate from the engine/cockpit system). And ever since you brought up the rear bumper area I've been thinking about ways to incorporate a rear bumper bar. We'll get there.

If there was room I'd run it straight down the center, but I don't think we've got more than 6-7" width between the seats and that would make for a pretty tall 12-gallon cell.

Best,
-j

[longislandwrx]

I'm also interested in safety but want to maintain my passenger seat.

Sgt. Gator Do you have a stock 818 tank? Would you be able to bring one over to them and see what it would take to make it safer/legal? I would be willing to pay one of these guys that has an extra to ship it to your house if you don't have one.





if you're working with Fuel Safe, they are only a few minutes from my house if I can help in any way I'd be glad to.

[Bill Waters]

You may be correct, John; my 818 was loaded onto Stewart Transport today! But I suspect the approach suggested by longisland will be the best route, if Sgt. Gator or others can do what he is requesting. I deleted the fuel system from my order, but maybe should have considered otherwise, since then I would have a template for ATL or Fuel SAfe to use.

I, too, would be hesitant to put the variable weight in the front. at this point, the fuel cell issue has the potential to delay my build more than any other feature, though I am sure that many factors will vie for that title before I'm done.

Bill

[C.Plavan]

I have variable weight in the front of my 911 racer all the time. But Then again, I have static weight in the rear. With the 911, if I want it to handle better, I run it with more gas (up front).

We wont know the true weight distribution until someone tries it out. I have scales, but I have no desire to put the tank up front. Like I said earlier, It's riding shotgun.

Call and talk to this shop. This is where I did some preliminary research a few months ago.


http://harmonracingcells.com/Tapered_End.html

[D Clary]

I don't know that I'm that big a fan of the cell riding shotgun. I would rather put it between two firewalls with a good fire system. The middle of the car seems protected enough.

[Santiago]

Wait, this is interesting:

Harmon's 12 gallon Fuel Cell (part #CUTE12) is 36" long x 10" high x 10" wide (only 7" wide at the top). Can somebody check that fitment for me (I don't have a chassis yet :()? I guess the key measurement is the width - is there 10" of width in the mounting platform as it is delivered by FFR?

Thanks for posting this Chad!

Best,
-john

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Wait, this is interesting:

Harmon's 12 gallon Fuel Cell (part #CUTE12) is 36" long x 10" high x 10" wide (only 7" wide at the top). Can somebody check that fitment for me (I don't have a chassis yet :()? I guess the key measurement is the width - is there 10" of width in the mounting platform as it is delivered by FFR?

Thanks for posting this Chad!

Best,
-john
John
The floor for the gas tank is 11" x 47"
The FFR firewall has a lip that takes up the front 1.5", but you can design that differently.
Big question is, Will you have enough leg room moving the firewall forward.
Bob

[Santiago]

Thank You Bob!
That's excellent news.

No worries about the leg room. I'm only 5'7" so no wookie requirements here. Now I just need to sort out some details...like seeing if Harmon can set one up that's compatible with e85.

-j

[D Clary]

That sounds promising does it have provisions for fuel pump and gauge, do they have a web site?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That sounds promising does it have provisions for fuel pump and gauge, do they have a web site?

http://harmonracingcells.com/Tapered_End.html

[Scargo]

Have I missed something? There is this from the rules:
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.

The FFR racer had the fuel cell in the passenger seat area. There was no bulkhead. NASA allowed this.

[Santiago]

Well, saying "NASA" allowed this is a bit off the mark. It's safer to say that at least one NASA tech-official in at least one region gave it a pass...or it was he that "missed this."

Scargo you're right that this shouldn't be allowed by the rules, and any tech inspector would easily be in the rights to deny passing the inspection if they wanted to do so. There are a number of things that are "at the discretion of the official" and FFR does has a long history with the organization, so...who knows.

Of course, for those interested in that position you could still put the tank in the passenger side legally, you just need to cover it. =)

Best,
-j

[Bob_n_Cincy]

looks like the 818R tank is covered.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25147&d=1389512274

[D Clary]

I just look like the bladder is covered. the filler is screwed to the top of it inside the car. I wouldn't want to try that one through tech. I think to be legal it would have to be completely covered to be considered completely separated from the driver.

[Santiago]

Man, that really is flirting with the intent vs. letter of the rules. Looks like they've got the tank, pump, and vent lines covered...maybe the "filler neck hose" is covered (but I don't think it is even by the letter of the rule).

Still, I'm with Clary on this one. This doesn't seem like an appropriate way to pass tech. Granted, if you're only running sprint races you're not coming in for refueling, but still. If there's an incident and the filler/cap is damaged within the "cell chamber," then in this configuration the driver compartment is automatically exposed. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the regulation. The driver is supposed to be isolated from damage to any part of the fuel system.

-j

[C.Plavan]

Always error on the side of safety. One conversation with the Tech person about the fuel cell being in the passenger area, then showing them the original position, they will understand. The passenger area is so much more robust for protection/safety. If they don't understand, I would seriously question their credentials.

I will have it boxed up, but I will have an angled fill plate that a hose will attach. Then you fill it from the outside like the S with a flush cap.

[D Clary]

Sorry but I don't see the vulnerability in the stock location with a fuel cell with front and rear firewalls.

[C.Plavan]

Sorry but I don't see the vulnerability in the stock location with a fuel cell with front and rear firewalls.



Once you actually get your chassis, and are actually able to look at it, you may change your tune.

Not saying the firewall route would not work, but also take into consideration the 818 design does not drop the trans in the event of bad rear crash. Even old 1970's 914's have this built in. Not to mention the closest thing to a bumper IS the transmission in the 818.

I feel safer with it protected by the cage with possible better weight balance as a plus.

Everyone has different ideas on safety, but I am the one driving my car. I'll error on the side of safety..... If you want to call it that.

[Santiago]

FWIW, I think Chad's skepticism on the stock tank location is helpful. I still favor that location, but now I'm thinking I may weld in an additional bar to better brace an engine-side firewall. Were it not for wanting passenger capability, I'd probably put the fuel cell in the passenger area and box it as Chad has in mind. Shouldn't be too tough...just as soon as he figures out how to hang his doors. =)

Speaking of bumpers, have you worked anything out yet Chad? The more I look at it the more I'm not happy about the fact that even a light tap can take out your ability to shift gears. Thoughts?

Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

I will be welding in a "Push" bumper a little higher and behind than the trans. Then it will be bent to match the curve of the rear bumper. It will all be on the inside.

I just cant decide on which to do first, Wing mount or bumper. You do not want to incorporate the two in case you get tapped. You do not want the wing angle to change.

One tap without an add on bumper, kiss your trans goodbye (linkage etc). Maybe even a gear or two depending on what gear you are in when hit. Not to mention the rear bumper AND side pods will fold like cardboard.

Prepare for the worst I say.

[Mechie3]

One tap without an add on bumper, kiss your trans goodbye (linkage etc). Maybe even a gear or two depending on what gear you are in when hit.

Just popped into this thread for the first time. You might be interested in something I'm going to machine tomorrow. Others have shown how the shift linkage can actually touch the rear bumper during normal shifting. This new lever arm replaces the stock steel fork and the FFR add on piece. The transverse cable doesn't move, simply rotate the reciever and the ball stud 180 degrees and it lines up with the new aluminum piece. The forward/back cable will need to be shifted forward a bit (~1.3").

The picture is jumbled if you don't know what you're looking at. On the right is the factory piece and the FFR addon. At the bottom is the ball stud and receiver. You'll see two ball studs and 1 receiver at the bottom. This shows what I was describing earlier with just flipping that bottom receiver. The new design and the FFR/OEM design are aligned where the dowel pin goes through. All total, this gives you an extra 1.4" of room between your linkage and the rear bumper.

http://i.imgur.com/F4wDste.png

[wleehendrick]

This new lever arm replaces the stock steel fork and the FFR add on piece. The transverse cable doesn't move, simply rotate the reciever and the ball stud 180 degrees and it lines up with the new aluminum piece. The forward/back cable will need to be shifted forward a bit (~1.3").


Craig, you plan to offer that for sale? Any idea of its compatible with the K-tuned shifter as is or with modification? I just pulled the OEM bracket off the back of my tranny last night and have started looking at the shift linkage.

[Mechie3]

I've only seen 1 picture of the K tuned/VCP setup and don't remember where I saw it. IIRC, they flipped the linkage upside down. If that's all they do is rotate the FFR bracket upright, then this should work.

After I machine it I'll test fit it, see if it works, get it quoted, and then see if it's worth trying to sell them.

[Bill Waters]

Chad, Craig, et al; very good points abut the push bumper. I would think an ideal one should have a "crumple zone," or self-sacrificing aspect, and thereby be replaceable. We will need to figure out the best design and the best attachment points for that and, as Chad suggests, the wing. I have seen, but can't recall, exactly how the FFR R one is rigged. Weld-in brackets would be nice parts for someone to produce.

I have been struggling, over the past two years, to talk myself out of buying a tube bender. Now y'all have given me the perfect rationalization to do so. (Not much of a push required).

By the way, I think it's fine for the thread's focus to wander in this direction, since it's all related. I would probably put my fuel cell in the passenger location if it were not for the desire to have a passenger seat. I may still have to.

Bill

[DodgyTim]

Is it an option to have a fuel cell located behind the passenger seat only?
I presume the passenger has a little more legroom ( no pedals ) than the driver side, and my passengers will generally be shorter than me;)

Also, the car may be better balanced, at least with a full tank, with fuel load offsetting driver weight.

[Santiago]

Well, if we're going with the 11" width figure Bob gave, then you might just do a quick review of readily available FIA-FT3 cells for such a plan.

For example, Fuel Safe's 15 gallon Sportsman cell lists its outside can dimensions as 26" long x 17.875" wide x 9.5" tall. If you put that behind the passenger you would have approx. 6.875" of lost space. So say 7" of intrusion into the passenger compartment for a nice round figure. That sounds like a fair amount to me, but to each to their own. Their cans stay that wide down through 12 gallons. You have to go with a 10 gallon cell to get a modest 10.125" width (which would require no intrusion into the passenger space). ATL's cells have similar dimensions (in their comparable lines).

The problem with most of the off-the-shelf items is that they seem designed to keep the fuel load as low as possible (which makes sense in terms of minimizing weight transfer). This requires wide cells for the fuel capacity most are likely to want. So using one still requires that a portion of your fuel cell is in the area that some folks are trying to avoid in the first place. But if you're just looking for more leg-room for the driver, then this approach fits that bill.

If you're ok with the stock tank placement, then things change. That's what makes Harmon's 12, 14, & 16 gallon tapered cells so enticing. Apart from the fact they're FIA-FT3 rated, they're all only 10" wide (differing only in length, and all but the 16 gal. widths will fit in the 818's stock space w/little effort).

Best,
-j

[nkw8181]

This is great info. Keep it coming!

[Bill Waters]

John
The floor for the gas tank is 11" x 47"
The FFR firewall has a lip that takes up the front 1.5", but you can design that differently.
Big question is, Will you have enough leg room moving the firewall forward.
Bob


Bob - when you answered Santiago's request to measure the stock gas tank with this response earlier in this thread, I was a bit confused. If the stock one fits at 11 inches width of its base, and the Harmon tank is only 10" wide, why would there need to be any modification of the firewall?

Thanks,

Bill

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob - when you answered Santiago's request to measure the stock gas tank with this response earlier in this thread, I was a bit confused. If the stock one fits at 11 inches width of its base, and the Harmon tank is only 10" wide, why would there need to be any modification of the firewall?

Thanks,

Bill

Hi Bill
The pocket for the gas tank is 11"
The gas tank has some tabs that sick out the front by maybe 1 1/4 inches.
The fire wall has a 1 1/4 lip on the front that sits on top of the gas tank tabs.
The FFR tank is only 9 3/4 front to back plus the tabs.
If you remove some of the firewall lip. You can move it forward a bit to fit the Hammond tank.
Does this make sense?
Bob 2574825749

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Bob; the details you provide make everything make sense. If I understand correctly, the pocket for the gas tank is 11", 1 1/4' of which is taken up by the firewall and its lip. Therefore, the fuel cell would need to be about 9" to fit properly and with some space between it and the firewall. Harmon makes custom tanks, and I don't think they are significantly more than stock ones when you change only one minor dimension. Their tanks don't use mounting tabs (based on pictures); we'd use restraining straps. So, maybe the total width would have to be even less to allow room for these.

Many Thanks, Bob

[Scargo]

I just have one issue with this thread. A FIA certified fuel cell is not the same as an unregulated "gas tank" that anyone can get or make. While a certified fuel cell can be used in any application, the opposite is not true.

Are makers of certified fuel cells allowed to arbitrarily change the shape (make a custom size) without re-certification? This seems to be the case. This seems like it would be really helpful to some of us. Then there is seeing if there is any consensus as to a safe and race legal location to mount it. I see no need for over a 10 gallon capacity (no enduros/no team). At (I think a conservative) 8 mpg that should equate to around 30 laps or an hour's driving on a 2.5 mile road course, similar to WGI. Does this seem plausible?

With regards to a race car application, and meeting FIA FT3 specifications and NASA/SCCA rules, a cell installation seems somewhat involved, if not complicated, to do really well. I want to be safe. I want anyone who might drive or buy the car to be safe.
Can anyone build the box that encloses the fuel cell? It's manufacture is not part of any certification process, is it? Is anyone fabricating these boxes from LDPE (Marlex) or does everyone use steel or aluminum? I see a drain is required. I see the enclosure can't be attached to the roll cage. Technically, where does a roll cage end and the frame or an acceptable mounting point for an enclosure begin?
I know I'm asking a lot of questions. Besides NASA rules in section 15.4 is there more info on this issue? Someone to talk to? Examples?

[FFRSpec72]

Chad, if you're working with Fuel Safe, they are only a few minutes from my house if I can help in any way I'd be glad to.
Also Pyrotect is very close by too. http://www.pyrotect.com/product.php?productid=166&cat=38&page=1

Like you, I would not go on track, or even on street, without a real fuel cell in this car. There are a lot of thermal and electrical ignition sources next to the tank.

I totally agree, so maybe I can work with Sgt. Gator if he lives close to Fuel Safe as we run in the same race league here in the NW to get a real fuel cell in this car.

Seems like this one from Fuel Safe might be a starting point http://www.fuelsafe.com/store/specialty-cells/sa113-lotus-super-7-racing-cell.html

[Santiago]

Are makers of certified fuel cells allowed to arbitrarily change the shape (make a custom size) without re-certification? This seems to be the case. This seems like it would be really helpful to some of us.

I'm not sure if they are "re-certified" per se, but they do seem to be able to deliver an FIA FT3 cert on a custom cell. At least, that's what they advertise, and I am assuming they've run this rodeo before.


Then there is seeing if there is any consensus as to a safe and race legal location to mount it. I see no need for over a 10 gallon capacity (no enduros/no team). At (I think a conservative) 8 mpg that should equate to around 30 laps or an hour's driving on a 2.5 mile road course, similar to WGI. Does this seem plausible?

I get 7-8mpg on track in my 330hp Mustang. I had a WAG of getting 6-8 out of the engine I plan to use. Still, I too thought 10 gals should do it for me...but ending on fumes in some scenarios. Thus my interest in a modest buffer (12 gal) and some additional safeguard against fuel starvation on track. I'd like to hear other folks chime in on this, esp. those who've tracked 400hp Subie mills. A 10 gal tank opens up quite a few possibilities - incl. Bob's front mount.


With regards to a race car application, and meeting FIA FT3 specifications and NASA/SCCA rules, a cell installation seems somewhat involved, if not complicated, to do really well.... I see the enclosure can't be attached to the roll cage. Technically, where does a roll cage end and the frame or an acceptable mounting point for an enclosure begin?
I know I'm asking a lot of questions. Besides NASA rules in section 15.4 is there more info on this issue? Someone to talk to? Examples?

You might want to contact your regional director or fish around your regional website to see if they list a head of tech that you can contact with specific questions. Another route would be to contact a NASA approved tech shop that is authorized to sign off on your car (they should have a link to a list on the regional websites). Since these shops are the ones who would be looking over the car anyway, they would be the ones who would best be able to answer your questions. Better to run by them any plans you have for such things first and get their feedback. If your region's website doesn't have a link, you can try throwing out a feeler in the regional area of the NASA forums (http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=62). I'm sure plenty of folks there would point you to a good local shop willing to offer consultation and/or do the install for you if you think that would be best.

Best,
-john

[Scargo]

My 400 WHP GR STi hatch, with aero, uses 4 + gallons in an average 20 minutes session. I have calculated that to be about 5 MPG.

[FFRSpec72]

My 400 WHP GR STi hatch, with aero, uses 4 + gallons in an average 20 minutes session. I have calculated that to be about 5 MPG.

The Subaru guys in the NW run in the ST class and run a 10:1 ratio so ~310hp to 3100lb, they burn 12gal for a 30 min race. So going to need at least a 12gal tank as I expect with lighter weight and a 2.0l engine I will burn less fuel

[Bill Waters]

I have recently received chassis # 114 and will be moving it from my barn to my shop very soon (donor deconstruction concluding). When I do, I'm going to measure with firewalls in place, check with Harmon about clearances for restraining straps, order the tank and fit it. I will keep you guys posted.

Bill

[FFRSpec72]

I have recently received chassis # 114 and will be moving it from my barn to my shop very soon (donor deconstruction concluding). When I do, I'm going to measure with firewalls in place, check with Harmon about clearances for restraining straps, order the tank and fit it. I will keep you guys posted.

Bill

In looking at the frame, I would want to put more structure to prevent the engine pushing through that firewall and into the fuel tank, I would not trust putting in a fuel cell w/o some sort of cage.

[Santiago]

The Subaru guys in the NW run in the ST class and run a 10:1 ratio so ~310hp to 3100lb, they burn 12gal for a 30 min race. So going to need at least a 12gal tank as I expect with lighter weight and a 2.0l engine I will burn less fuel

I suppose more data points like this would be nice, but I think I'm pretty set on a 12 gal cell since I anticipate putting about the same hp to the wheels.

As for framing, looks like it should be easy to weld in two or three vertical square tubes between the two bars that run across the lower part of the rear bulkhead.

Looking forward to seeing how the Harmon goes in Bill! That's my current favorite option. I should contact them about e85 compatibility...

Best,
-j

[Scargo]

The Subaru guys in the NW run in the ST class and run a 10:1 ratio so ~310hp to 3100lb, they burn 12 gal for a 30 min race.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but this does not compute to me.
I have a 7.9:1 car and I never burn more than five gallons in a 20 minute session on the track. Sure, it's HPDE, not flat out racing all the time, but I'm trying to be fast and a good lap is only a couple of seconds off a winning STU time at one track. I would think that they would have to be running ungodly aero and/or a super-rich tune for that to be true.
I wish FFR would weigh in on this.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this does not compute to me.

I burn 7-8 gal of fuel in my Challenge car, these guys run in my group and I know they put in 15gal for each race.

[Santiago]

Tony, are you saying you burn 7-8 gal in a 20 min session or for a full 40 min race? Or were you saying the other Challenge guys put in 15 gal/race? Or were you saying the NW Subaru guys put in 15 gal of fuel for a 40 min race?

Sorry, I just wasn't sure who was referenced over what period of run time.

Best,
-j

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, are you saying you burn 7-8 gal in a 20 min session or for a full 40 min race? Or were you saying the other Challenge guys put in 15 gal/race? Or were you saying the NW Subaru guys put in 15 gal of fuel for a 40 min race?

Sorry, I just wasn't sure who was referenced over what period of run time.

Best,
-j


My FFR challenge car (330 rwhp) FFR class conformant burns 7-8 gals in a 30 min race (40 min if you count pace and cool down).

The Subaru guys in the ST class (a 10:1 ratio class) burn ~12 gals in the same 30 min race (they are in the same run group as me, so conditions are the same).

The numbers may be hard to believe but they empty 3 5gal jugs in their car before they head out each race

[Doowop]

well, it seems like people have different needs, but for me I werant a second seat in the car, so locating a fuel cell in the passenger area is not an option.
Gator, Fuel Safe makes custom cell. I wonder if we could get enough people interested in 1 design to get them to build us one for a reasonable price. Since you offered, could you go talk to somebody there and see if they are willing to do anything for us? thanks

[Santiago]

Thanks for the clarification Tony.

-j

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm also interested in safety but want to maintain my passenger seat.

Sgt. Gator Do you have a stock 818 tank? Would you be able to bring one over to them and see what it would take to make it safer/legal? I would be willing to pay one of these guys that has an extra to ship it to your house if you don't have one.

Sorry for the delay LongIslandWRX. No, I don't have any parts yet. If one is shipped to me I could take it to their office. I'd be little worried since I don't have the rest of the car to to do some test fitting. Personally I would want to design the fuel cell to allow the extra legroom.

[Sgt.Gator]

Yes, I'd be happy to talk with Fuel Safe and Pyrotect too. I'll review the fuel tank threads and then go meet with them. I need to go over to the Pyrotect office for some new belts anyway.

[Sgt.Gator]

To Spec a tank for a group buy I need to get a consensus on several questions, most of these are right on the Fuel Safe FAQ website:

1) Minimum Gal capacity? (I race enduros, I'd want at least 15 gallons)

2) Setup for extra legroom? (I need that too!) The Boyd tank is 10 gallons, has room for 2" more legroom and is 46.5" x 6.5" x 10" . Is there room to go higher if we want both more fuel and more legroom? Any other ideas for a design with more legroom and will hold 15 gallons?

3) Will you be filling at the cell, at a fender, or with a dry break? ( I'm guessing most will want to fill at the fender? Is this the same for both the S and the R?)

4) What size vent do you require?

5) What size fuel lines will you require? AN fittings?

6) In-tank pump or external? I know the instructions are for an In Tank, but we may want to go External.

7) Is there a need for a return fitting?

8) If you will be using more than 80% of your fuel capacity before refueling, do you want to install a collector? Good idea!

9) Will there be a sender; if so, what ohm range does your gauge need?

If you haven't priced fuel cells you may be in for sticker shock, plus the cost of replacing the bladder and foam every five years if you want to stay current for racing.

[Xusia]

^I have a fuel tank. I don't make it to Bend, well, like ever. Do you come to Eugene much?

[Doowop]

Thanks Gator.
What I'd like for sure:
-dual pickup with AN fittings. In a fuel cell especially a tall one, I'd want to have a fuel pickup in each bottom corner to make sure we are getting fuel even in hard cornering.
-Return fitting should be there in case we want to use it. I did in my previous race car. People can always cap it if not used.
-A sender would be nice, especially if the car will be used for some street use as mime will be. It can be make to match what comes with the WRX.
-I'd rather see an external pump personally.
-Seeing where the tank will be, if we still are looking behind the seat, filling at the fender would be great. We can always add one of those fuel filler on there.

[Sgt.Gator]

I get over to Eugene once a year.
We have a track day coming up in March at ORP in Grass Valley. I'll be there if you are interested in coming over for a very cheap track day or Team Continental driver's school (counts towards your ICSCC racing license).
http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm/event/event.advert/uidEvent/184FBAAB-A304-7080-896607B508D1D611#.UvKsRvldV8E

[longislandwrx]

1) Minimum Gal capacity? (I race enduros, I'd want at least 15 gallons)

Yeah stock capacity to 15gal would be nice.


2) Setup for extra legroom? (I need that too!) The Boyd tank is 10 gallons, has room for 2" more legroom and is 46.5" x 6.5" x 10" . Is there room to go higher if we want both more fuel and more legroom? Any other ideas for a design with more legroom and will hold 15 gallons?

I don't need the leg room, (5'8 here) theres room to make the tank taller, but youd have to get creative with the wiring/ ebrake etc etc


3) Will you be filling at the cell, at a fender, or with a dry break? ( I'm guessing most will want to fill at the fender? Is this the same for both the S and the R?)

The fender for now, a dry break wouldn't be too hard to add with the stock config later though.

4) What size vent do you require?

bigger is always better?

5) What size fuel lines will you require? AN fittings?

5/16 works, AN is a plus. price will be the factor. all these would be nices could send the cell into the $2000 range!


6) In-tank pump or external? I know the instructions are for an In Tank, but we may want to go External.

I'll be using in tank

7) Is there a need for a return fitting?

Yes

8) If you will be using more than 80% of your fuel capacity before refueling, do you want to install a collector? Good idea!

depends on price.

9) Will there be a sender; if so, what ohm range does your gauge need?

0-100ohm

[longislandwrx]

When does your kit come?

If it would help and Jerome still has his i'll pay to ship it to you... PM me your address.

[FFRSpec72]

I get over to Eugene once a year.
We have a track day coming up in March at ORP in Grass Valley. I'll be there if you are interested in coming over for a very cheap track day or Team Continental driver's school (counts towards your ICSCC racing license).
http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm/event/event.advert/uidEvent/184FBAAB-A304-7080-896607B508D1D611#.UvKsRvldV8E

I should be able to drop my tank off to you at ORP or have someone from my area that is going take it down to ORP that weekend.

[Sgt.Gator]

Well, if we're going with the 11" width figure Bob gave, then you might just do a quick review of readily available FIA-FT3 cells for such a plan.

If you're ok with the stock tank placement, then things change. That's what makes Harmon's 12, 14, & 16 gallon tapered cells so enticing. Apart from the fact they're FIA-FT3 rated, they're all only 10" wide (differing only in length, and all but the 16 gal. widths will fit in the 818's stock space w/little effort).

Best,
-j

The Harmon tanks are 10" wide, which is great for legroom, but they are all 10" tall too, plus we have to account for the filling/vents/connections on top. Is that too tall to work? If not the 14 gal one looks good, but the connections would need to be on the other end? http://www.harmonracingcells.com/Tapered_End.html

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My 818S will be DD, Autodross/Track day car.
The fuel cell is going in front box. (no room behind seat) Help me decide on fuel line routing.
Option 1: run fuel line with coolant tubes down the outside of cockpit. vulnerable to side impact.
Option 2: run fuel line in shifter tunnel inside of the cockpit.

Please suggest the safest way with suggestions for improvement.
thanks
Bob

[C.Plavan]

My 818S will be DD, Autodross/Track day car.
The fuel cell is going in front box. (no room behind seat) Help me decide on fuel line routing.
Option 1: run fuel line with coolant tubes down the outside of cockpit. vulnerable to side impact.
Option 2: run fuel line in shifter tunnel inside of the cockpit.

Please suggest the safest way with suggestions for improvement.
thanks
Bob

Option 2. Porsches are that way. You will be fine.

[Xusia]

Bob, I plan to run mine down the center tunnel.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I plan to run mine down the center tunnel.
Thanks Chad

Xusia, are you going to use steel tubing or braided hose?
What do you think about putting the lines inside a steel 1" tube?
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Is anyone looking at a fuel tank inside the center of the car? The current center tunnel is unstressed, some creativity should yield a very nice capacity tank down the center... Like my old Fiero, it's a very safe location, Run all the wires down the sides of the car and the shifter on top of the tank. Use 1/8 aluminum to make up the tunnel instead of the tubing and thin aluminum.. Add a tank behind the passenger, and use an external fuel pump, allow swapping from one tank to another...

[Scargo]

I like you running them down the center.
Having had steel lines fatigue and crack, which caused a fire, I suggest you support them well and prevent possible chafing. While putting lines in a tube sound good, do they need double protection? Can they be supported in the tube and prevented from vibrating and rubbing? Lines could be isolated with rubber grommets.
You could just support both the steel lines every few feet in opposing rubber lined P-clips, which seems pretty common.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I like you running them down the center.
Having had steel lines fatigue and crack, which caused a fire, I suggest you support them well and prevent possible chafing. While putting lines in a tube sound good, do they need double protection? Can they be supported in the tube and prevented from vibrating and rubbing? Lines could be isolated with rubber grommets.
You could just support both the steel lines every few feet in opposing rubber lined P-clips, which seems pretty common.

Hi Scarco,
You asked "do they need double protection?"
Probably not, I look at as a firewall around the gas lines.

Hi Dan
The center gas tank 6"x8"x48" would be 9 gallons :)
Bob

[Xusia]

Thanks Chad

Xusia, are you going to use steel tubing or braided hose?
What do you think about putting the lines inside a steel 1" tube?
Bob

I haven't decided yet. On one hand, I really don't want to add more bulk to the center tunnel. On the other hand, I really don't like the idea of gas leaking inside the cockpit. Then again, would I even survive an accident that caused enough damage in that area to cause a leak? Questions...

[Xusia]

I had actually thought about putting the gas tank down the center, but thought that it might be a stupid idea. Glad to know it's been done. It would probably mean more work on the wiring harness because more wires would likely need to be extended (to go around the outside of the car). In my case it would probably also mean I need the VCP shifter, because the FFR shifter would be too high.

Interesting idea. What else is normally routed down the center tunnel that would need to be re-routed?

[RM1SepEx]

just the wires and really only the control wires, a severe diet with the lights etc down the side would do it. I'm going to shorten the shifter a couple inches. A center tank could be made a couple inches taller for more capacity and perhaps an inch or two wider depending on the seats that you use. I could also envision it being taller in the back..

The 48 inches isn't correct, it could run all the way to the rear firewall adding another foot or so to the length. I think 14 - 15 gallons would be pretty easy

[Xusia]

Using the existing external dimensions of the center tunnel (5"x6.25"), all the way back to the rear frame (55") yields a volume of 7.45 gallons (1719 cubic inches; 231 ci per gallon). Another issue I thought of that could be a problem is how to keep the gas near the pickup. With such a short, wide tank it will be harder than with a taller tank.

Between the small capacity and potential for slosh, I don't think this is the best idea for me.

[flynntuna]

Baffles could be added to prevent slosh, and more capacity could be had behind the passenger seat. Sort of a L shape, with the part behind the passenger a little taller. All this would be easier if the filler cap was also on the passenger side.:confused:

[RM1SepEx]

correct, you can also make it taller after the shifter in a track car... Xusia, we were counting on removing the framework of the tunnel and enclosing the tank with thicker aluminum like the rear bulkhead. There is no structural purpose for the current tunnel framework and it would increase your capacity quite a bit!

Between using the whole tunnel area and behind the passenger seat I think 15 gallons is possible when moving the fill to the passenger side. This leaves the entire driver's side for seat space (posts 81 and 86)

[Xusia]

My measurements were external, which assumed removal of the existing framework. 15 gallons is very likely possible if the gas tank extends behind the passenger seat. I know baffles could be used, but I just don't think they'd be completely effective. In my opinion, while I like the idea, the reality of a custom gas tank in the center tunnel poses more problems than it solves. For me, anyway...

[flynntuna]

Not to mention the extra cost to have a custom tank built. I'm sure it's not beyond the skill of some on this forum, but it sure is way past mine.
An E-Mail to Boyd Welding with a drawing and measurements can answer a lot of this. A group buy would also keep the price down somewhat I'm guessing.

[Doowop]

well, one of the problems that racers are going against is that it seems that NASA only has 2 options as far a fuel tank. You can use the stock one that came with the car, or have a fuel cell that is FIA rated.

[FFRSpec72]

well, one of the problems that racers are going against is that it seems that NASA only has 2 options as far a fuel tank. You can use the stock one that came with the car, or have a fuel cell that is FIA rated.

Not true in pratice as I know plenty of cars that don't run the stock nor an FIA certified cell

[Scargo]

Not true in pratice as I know plenty of cars that don't run the stock nor an FIA certified cell Are you talking NASA WTW racing classes? In non-licensed classes like TT down, I don't think they care.

[FFRSpec72]

Are you talking NASA WTW racing classes? In non-licensed classes like TT down, I don't think they care.

Race classes, there are quite a few AI or CMC cars that run aluminum tanks (not cells). Also Some of the Legends cars I run with are not running cells.

[Doowop]

I should have specified, ST class for WTW racing. I am sure there are exception, but that is the way it is here locally and what is technically in the rule book.

[FFRSpec72]

I should have specified, ST class for WTW racing. I am sure there are exception, but that is the way it is here locally and what is technically in the rule book.

I must be missing something as the 2014 General Rules don't require a fuel cell (the specific class rules may require a fuel cell, if a fuel cell is used or required it has to be FIA approved), the 2014 rules for ST don't have any specific requirements relative to gas tank or fuel cell

[Scargo]

Here's a curious section in NASA rules. It pertains to HPDE cars.
11.4.21 Alcohol Injection
Tanks containing alcohol (e.g. methanol) that exceed 50% alcohol by volume should carry an FIA FT3 (or
higher) rating and be installed per fuel cell regulations found in CCR Section [Ref:(15.4)]. Tanks containing
50% or less alcohol by volume may use any container per the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations.
Under all circumstances tanks or containers must be mounted in an area that is completely separated from the
driver by a bulkhead or firewall. They do not enforce this in regards to my STi hatch.There's a lot of "shoulds" and then there are "musts". Often if things aren't "stock" they defer to the CCR. What I find really odd is that among all of the shoulds for safety there is the must about appearance. 11.4.1 Appearance: "All entered vehicles must be in good condition and appearance."

Time Trial cars are subject to HPDE rules.

For ST and SU class rules about fuel cells:
They say: A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.
2. The cell must contain a bladder that is FIA FT-3 (or higher) rated. 40
3. The cell should be in a container made of at least 0.036-inch steel, 0.059-inch aluminum, or 0.125-
inch Marlex, fully surrounding the bladder.

The way I interpret this is that IF you have a non-stock fuel tank then it must meet the above rules for a FIA rated fuel cell.

[FFRSpec72]

The way I interpret this is that IF you have a non-stock fuel tank then it must meet the above rules for a FIA rated fuel cell.

I think you are out on a limb here, as a there is no definition of a "fuel cell" in the CCR or in the ST class rules. If you read the FFR class rules you will see very specific requirements for a "fuel system" and specific aspects of a fuel cell that must be followed. There are no ST class rules for a fuel cell. There are no requirements that you use a "stock" or "production" tank. I don't think the rules are well written and can be made more clear.

I will not race in a car without a FIA approved fuel cell.

[Santiago]

I don't think the worry is so much stock vs cell, simply "is it a cell?" This was the concern raised earlier. If your local tech official says you have or must have a cell then it must be certified. They are already familiar with the Challenge car, and it isn't legal for w2w without a cell. Since we would be presenting "another" FFR product to them, they may just rely on past experience by claiming any FFR car needs a cell. So pressing the argument that the supplied tank isn't a cell won't matter...IF your official just insists one is needed.

If there are non-Challenge roadsters out there running ST classes you might have a more favorable precedent on your side. And if you know of such folks it might help to ask them about their experience with tech.

Note, in none of this am I suggesting it is a good idea to race w2w without a proper cell. I am definitely with Tony on this one.

Best,
-j

[FFRSpec72]

So the answer I got from NASA NW was that the tank that FFR supplies is OEM and thus allowed, if you use another tank other than the OEM tank it must be an approved fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. So if you feel safe with racing w/o a fuel cell then you need to use the FFR supplied tank otherwise the Boyd or other tanks will not be accepted as it must be a fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. I bet NASA keeps a close eye on this since this car is new.

[SixStar]

So the answer I got from NASA NW was that the tank that FFR supplies is OEM and thus allowed, if you use another tank other than the OEM tank it must be an approved fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. So if you feel safe with racing w/o a fuel cell then you need to use the FFR supplied tank otherwise the Boyd or other tanks will not be accepted as it must be a fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. I bet NASA keeps a close eye on this since this car is new.

This is the same answer I got. Mainly because it meets the letter of the rules. It's a little scary that wording allows the use of a stamped steel Chinese tank vs. a welded aluminum just because that's what comes with the kit but oh well.

[Santiago]

Such is the nature of rules sometimes. Still, good info to know should an 818 appear on grid for tech -thanks Tony.

I would LOVE to see one at an event this year. Any guys running NASA-Midwest or Great Lakes region events?

Best,
-j

[Xusia]

How would they know what tank FFR supplies? Just sayin... :)

[wleehendrick]

That's just silly. I understand it meets the letter of the rules, but applying to a kit car is inappropriate. It won't affect me, since the most I'll do with my S is autox, track days, etc... and I'm comfortable doing so with my Boyd tank, but I had to vent. This actually encourages a less safe solution!

[Scargo]

This is the same answer I got. Mainly because it meets the letter of the rules. It's a little scary that wording allows the use of a stamped steel Chinese tank vs. a welded aluminum just because that's what comes with the kit but oh well.
stamped steel Chinese tank... Really? That's what come with 818s?

[FFRSpec72]

I really think that FFR needs to address this issue and work with Fuel Safe or other companies to actually create a fuel cell for the 818, so Dave PLEASE work this out and get us a fuel cell ASAP as if you are going to produce a race car please make sure it has the proper parts.

[Bill Waters]

Does anybody know what the plans are from FFR? I was under the impression that there was a fuel cel in process.

If they don't, I will have to order a custom one fairly soon.

Bill

[FFRSpec72]

I called FFR and sent a note to them about a fuel cell, I have also asked for the schematic for their existing hot rod tank so I can get someone started on a fuel cell, I also asked again if they were working on a fuel cell, no answer yet. I just find this a very sad situation to be in at this point in time. I guess Dave does not read these posts and has other things to do.

[Santiago]

Given the number of posts in all these threads, my guess is that you're better off posting a question in the "Ask a Factory Five Tech" forum. Somebody at FFR is definitely going to be checking those posts.

[Scargo]

I'd like to go back to the idea of the fuel tank being in the center. How many cars have a tank in this location? Usually, there is a metal skin or partition separating the tank from the passenger compartment. NASA rules mention this and there are some requirements regarding partitions. In this tunnel design, nor the stock design, do I see anything to keep the fuel out of the passenger compartment. Leakage or a rupture could well mean that the fuel would stay in the passenger compartment. Could a long, skinny tank be subject to torsional stress?

This makes me think more about the stock tank. You have a tank, in the passenger compartment, covered by an unsealed plate, yet the tank is sealed in from below, behind and on the sides. Am I wrong about this?
In a serious rear-end collision what happens to the tank and the fuel? The primary exhaust is inches from the fuel.
I am glad I will be using a fuel cell and that it will be positioned significantly forward.

[RM1SepEx]

You can cover a center tank with 1/8 aluminum bolted through the steel floor. You add some slots or holes under the tank so if it is compromised fuel goes under the floor vs into the car, just like the stock tank has slots. Making a fuel cell through the center should be easy, if you don't need a passenger seat, make it wider for more capacity.

[FFRSpec72]

I'd like to go back to the idea of the fuel tank being in the center.

So my challenge car the fuel cell is fully exposed on 3 sides an a thin aluminum between the fuel cell and the back of my seat. My cell is protected by a full cage/frame though

[FFRSpec72]

So this is what Harmon Racing cells had to say, so I'm still waiting for the schematics from FFR, so figure $1500, which is not bad for FIA cell

Thank you for contacting Harmon Racing Cells. We can make any shape or size you need. From what you describe, it would be about 12 gallons a complete unit with a tunnel and pickups runs about $1300.00 and a sending unit another $240. If you want to give me the location of the tunnel I can get you a quote and we can go from there.


Can someone with a Boyd tank give me the exact dimensions and placements of the pickup, sender, fuel pump and inlet as I'm trying to get a fuel cell made and FFR is useless so far ?

[FFRSpec72]

I have a design and quote from Harmon on a FIA fuel cell see http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13745-818-FIA-Fuel-Cell-Design-Quote