351w vs 408w vs 351 turbo. Contemplating a new engine. I have a MkII on the road.

[Tifford]

Here is what I have.
MKII 427 FFR On the road
351w, MAC shorti ceramic coated headers, edelbrock duel plane intake, Champ oil pan to clear the main Tubes, 650 edelbrock carb, The engine is a 351HO out of a 1984 F-150. It has the stock cam and stock heads. Behind it is a Steel Lake wood bell housing, TKO600 tranny. 3.55 rear end. 17" rims.

My goal is to go 0 to about 135 in the fastest amount of time. It will be street driven 99% of the time but on those rare occasions I want to blow the doors off of as many 'sports' cars at red lights as possible. I would also like a nice roll on, say I'm traveling 70mph on the interstate and another sports car wants to see who can get to 120 first.

I keep going back and forth on what I should get. Should I just get a cam and heads on my current 351w? Should I go TQ monster and go 408W, Should I plan on a rebuild of the current engine with a putting a turbo on. I am even considering a coyote engine with or with out turbo but then I think of the headaches involved in putting it in a car where it is already set up for the 351w.

Suggestions please!

[QSL]

I haven't even gone over 80 yet...

[chopthebass]

With a power to weight ratio as good as an Enzo I would have thought with your current engine you could out run most cars!

[QSL]

Lol. I am just too old. Don't need any of the issues included with going those speeds.

[chopthebass]

Judging by your photo QSL I am probably even older!

[Bob Cowan]

Power adders create their own problems. If they're set up properly, they're great. If you know what you're doing with a turbo - or are willing to pay for it - then go for it. Otherwise it will be a real headache. Especially when it's hot.

NA engines are simple, easy to build and tune, and are dead reliable. When built properly for a street car, it is reasonable to expect about 1.2 hp per cube. More cubes = more power = faster acceleration. You can find some HP calculaters on the web that will tell you what power level will get you where you want to be.

I would start with a Dart block stroker, add a good EFI system, and tune the chassis really well. Oh, wait. That's exactly what I did. ;)

[Movieman]

Get a bottle of NOS...:D

[OCCPete]

What's your budget? I had a stock bottom end '84 351W with AFR185 heads and a custom grind cam and it was plenty for me.

If you want to go crazy get one of these from Forte's: 427W, 535HP http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11831

[tirod]

You must be kidding.

It's the first post made, asking how to increase power to do something illegal?

Serious adults go to tracks where it's a lot safer. We don't need you jacking up the insurance rates for kit cars doing this. Really. Adding power is dirt simple, the writeups and financial costs are well detailed. What isn't mentioned are all the add on costs when you slip the clutch and the drivetrain starts coming apart from an additional 150 foot pounds of torque exceeding the limits. Things tend to explode - like clutches. Add the cost of SFI rated parts all the way out to the wheels, and include them. Then you won't wake up with your head in a brace at the hospital with permanent nerve damage, like one guy I know, or a foot surgically reattached, like another.

You also avoid the results of the last such notorious incident locally - two young guys in a nice Mustang which got hit, a 60+ Porsche driver lost his license, and the mom & daughter's lawyer bled them all for a chunk of change. Not to mention the culprits insurance difficulties. Street racers pay thru the nose. They wind up driving Neons, which I guess is better than drunks. They wind up on bicycles, like one coworker who had to pedal 5 miles across town during the winter ice and snow.

I don't see this as turning out very well. Take what you have to the track and listen to experienced people who aren't trying to sell you something. You'll likely discover there's a lot more to it than just mashing the pedal, and you will get to race where other people on the track are going the same direction. Cuts down on the head on collisions.

[CraigS]

look here for what you could do to your 351
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/power_package_main.shtml
but don't buy the Edel carb. Go w/ a Quickfuel or Holley.

[turbonut48]

Mines a 418W with EFI. Based on my experience, the shorter lift , higher duration cam is the way to go. Mine s NOT that, and its a monster
around town.
Something with 10:1 compression, close to a RV cam will give you a bunch of grunt on the street, yet idle smoothly.

The Nut

[Tifford]

I think I have a plan.

-The Turbo is going to be out. Routing tubing, intercooler, heat, whine: They are mountains I don't want to climb for now. Very cool if it done correctly though

I'll do the following:
1. Get a good 351w block where the exhaust ports match up with exhaust ports on a stock engine. I'd be willing to spend the money for a Dart block if they match up.
2. Buy a cam (somewhere at or slightly above a .500 intake and exhaust lift), quality pistons, bearings, crank and Trick Flow heads. Nothing against the AFR heads but I believe the TFs give great value for the money.
3. When the time comes I will park my FFR at a engine builders shop, I will have them pull the following off my current engine: The Champ oil pan, Pertronixs dizzy, and edelbrock duel plane intake, March pulleys, fly wheel (might change the fly wheel to aluminum) and put them on my new engine.

In the end I will probably go with a Holley carb. Everything I have read is that you go with Edelbrock if you want reliability and Holley if you want more power. That is something that I can do later on a lazy afternoon.

I will keep the compression around 10:1.

The above might not be the absolute best to reach my goals but it should be at the upper end of what I could do. If a stock, off the show room floor, bought from a dealership, car can out run me with the above combo then so be it.

[Tifford]

Tirod,

-Just because it is illegal doesn't mean it is bad. Not to long ago it was illegal for a woman to vote. It is illegal for a person in NY to carry concealed while it is ok for a person in SC to do so. You must be kidding when you talk legal talk. I will not believe you if you tell me you have never gone over the speed limit.
-I believe my Steel Lakewood Bell housing will take care of explosions if they do indeed happen. Perhaps you didn't read that part.
-I also believe my TKO 600 will handle the TQ put out by my engine or my future engine. The clutch might go bad but it is designed to be the weak link to save the tranny.
-I don't know why you brought bikes or drunks into the discussion and frankly I don't care.
-"Serious adults" I believe you made this comment to try to be demeaning.
-If a guy is driving a Neon I will not put him down for doing so but apparently you will.
-Trying to sell me something??? I believe Factory Five tried to sell me something. There is nothing wrong with trying to sell something. BTW I bought and built a FFR.

You never gave one suggestion on engine performance. Are you driving a FFR with a 3 cylinder Suzuki engine? Lord have mercy if you are because you are a threat to everyone else on the road since you have more power than you need. You felt it was ok to get up on your pulpit and preach. Personally I don't care for anything you have to say. If a driver of a Lancer and I decide to go at and we are the only two on the road for miles then so be it.

[carbon fiber]

I've got tfs twisted wedge heads on a supercharged 351w and they're great. I've got some afr 165cc heads on a 302 and they performed fine also. i'm assuming you're talking about using 185cc heads? I think the afr's flow a little better out of the box. you might want to do a roller lifter conversion if you get an older 351 block, it makes the cam last a lot longer. though at the horsepower level you're aiming for there's nothing wrong with the later model 351 roller blocks from the factory. I messed with carbs for years, and always used holleys. the guys on here recommend a double pumper since the car is so light, I used vacuum secondaries but never ran it on anything as light as the roadster. finally, if it's in your budget, take a look at fast efi. looks like a carb, but with all the benefits of efi. hope that helps, good luck with the build.

[Tifford]

Carbon Fiber,

Thanks for the heads up on the roller cam. I completely forgot that Ford changed over to that. I think it happened somewhere in the 90s.

I was talking about the 185s. I haven't checked prices lately but when I was doing my build I thought they were a lot more than the Trick Flows. I guess I have to sit down and look at flow numbers across the rpm range and the difference in price and decide if the extra flow is worth the extra dollar amount. I know that either way they will be better than the stock that I have and my car will lose weight.

Thanks for the heads up on fast efi. I used the painless wiring harness with the FF kit. I have to say that the wiring part of the build was part I dreaded most. I am partial to a carb but if the wiring isn't bad and the price is right I'm open to it. Right now I have a manual choke. I kind of like the old school feel of it.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[carbon fiber]

the fast efi is like 4 time more than the carb, but it will pay for itself in gas mileage in the end. (pretty quickly with todays gas prices) it's also hard to put a price on the cold start quality, self tuning capabilities, and adaptability it offers. one thing I hated about a carb is if you change anything else in your engine setup, you have to adjust the carb to match. the fast efi is self tuning. that's the best feature if you ask me.

[tirod]

My goal is to go 0 to about 135 in the fastest amount of time. It will be street driven 99% of the time but on those rare occasions I want to blow the doors off of as many 'sports' cars at red lights as possible. I would also like a nice roll on, say I'm traveling 70mph on the interstate and another sports car wants to see who can get to 120 first.

Your point by point refutation admits your premise was illegal and unsafe by outright denial. Pointing out what I might have said wrong isn't the topic, it's a defensive coverup for what I quote above.

Which engine is a common topic on a dozen forums across the net, making horsepower is tallied in thousands of threads, and which parts do what expounded on by dozens of experts. It's not hard to get answers with a little research. The comment I made on improving the rest of the car still stands, it's a poor decision to improve hp by 35-50% and do nothing for the brakes, u-joints, or differential. It's highly interrelated. High speeds require better brakes at the least.

Why add to what is already hashed over by hundreds of others better at it? Bob Cowan spelled it out for the engine, but don't overlook his last recommendation: "tune the chassis really well." That's a little vague, but what he's saying is it's easy to build a motor, you spend 10 times longer getting the brakes balanced, shocks tuned, sway bars set, and alignment set up correctly for that car driving where 99% of the miles will be. Nobody talks much about it because we live in an engine centric world which is done in a garage with the hood up. Tuning the chassis is done on a race track you rent with an experienced chassis guy on hand to read tire temperatures, etc. Exactly what Shelby American did most of it's work day when they raced, and what the factories do for months after they screw a prototype together - run it to find out what's not working right.

Cars are NOT about what monster hp motor is under the hood. Power is a commodity item now. You pay for what you want, and drop it in. Making that power hook up the tires correctly at a standing start or in a 120 mph corner is something entirely different and completely ignored by the newbs in hot rodding. All they see is the motor, what they don't see is how to make the tires and wheels point the right direction at the right time. It might mean resetting the ride height, changing control arm lengths, where the chassis pickup points are, or changing a spring rate - which forces you to buy different springs.

It's been demonstrated to take seconds off a quarter mile. You want to run fast, it's not all about the engine, and to get it done right, it can't be done on the street. You have to spend time at the track to do it. Otherwise, mom and the soccer team get in the way. Thousands of them.

Get thee to a race track, talk with experienced guys who aren't trying to sell you something, learn about the car as a whole, and the result will be a whole lotta fun and a lot of respect from them as the car and you improve.

Beats the alternative - uniformed men with guns confining you away from the public because you endanger them and make life difficult. Cars DO get wrecked, tickets handed out, licenses lost, and insurance rates become unaffordable for anything more than a Neon. With a season of experience at the track, you then scoff at traffic lights when children behind the wheel attempt to challenge your masculinity. The reality is they do it because they have no clue about their place in life. Adults do, and are comfortable with it.

Don't be "that guy" in the dash cam video. It's not only the cops who are using them now. It's evidence in insurance settlements.

[edwardb]

.....

I'm not defending street racing. But what you do you expect to gain with the lecturing? Please stop...

[Movieman]

I'm not defending street racing. But what you do you expect to gain with the lecturing? Please stop...
Thank you Edward..Pretty much what I was thinking BUT I'm going to add this:
I've been driving since 1968. Fell in love with fast cars way before I was old enough to get behind the wheel legally.
I've been in cars at 150MPH both on a track and on the street. I've seen people die at both locations.
Everything is all about judgement of the situation and then the factor of something breaking.
You don't blow down a sidestreet at 80 ever but there are places and times when it is reasonably safe to do a short blast to 3 figures.
Otherwise we all should be driving yugo's yes?
I rest my case.

[Tifford]

the fast efi is like 4 time more than the carb, but it will pay for itself in gas mileage in the end. (pretty quickly with todays gas prices) it's also hard to put a price on the cold start quality, self tuning capabilities, and adaptability it offers. one thing I hated about a carb is if you change anything else in your engine setup, you have to adjust the carb to match. the fast efi is self tuning. that's the best feature if you ask me.

Thanks for the heads up. Once I get my engine set up to where I want it I will probably leave it alone. Good points on the cold start, mileage, and adaptability. I will research it some more as I get some time off from work. It does bring a big grin to my face when I pull the choke, pump the gas and wait for the rumble and smooth idle though. I don't know if I could give that up.

Seems like every time I upgrade it costs. I went with disk brakes all the way around so I used truck splines and inserted them in the stang 8.8 rear end. To get power brakes I used a booster from a fiesta and it works great. I used Lincoln rotors up front instead of the stang ones (17" rims allowed me to do this). Tubular control arms everywhere to reduce weight. I used a 3 core radiator to reduce heat because I knew the radiator was a pita to take out and I knew I was going to put in a stronger motor in the future.

After I'm done upgrading the motor, the only thing left will be the suspension and maybe adding power steering. But to be honest I like the suspension as is. It is super low to the ground at 3.5 inches and has no body roll what so ever. The frame flexes but that is about it.

[Gordon Levy]

There are tone to consider when doing upgrades, please feel free to give me a call and we can talk at length of the pros and cons of all of them.

[NTGuru]

Just a thought, My build is a warmed over 302, E-Cam, EFI and a lot of goodies (no power adders). 2200lb car, 250 lb driver 315-35-17 Nitto NT05R tires and the car will spin the wheels to a 4.01 0-60 time.and about 9.5 sec to 100 mph. if you can get the power to the ground add more motor, but why. an observation i have made is every time i get more power, or do something to add more performance, the car gets less enjoyable to drive and burns a lot more fuel. the car in its original configuration has no issues beating almost any production car, when it hooks up. And when it does, look out. i have already had to replace the 3-link "Banana Bracket" when it has actually hooked up on concrete, and even in that configuration it will pull the front wheels with hot tires. All that with a little over 300HP.

23285

[chopthebass]

Just a thought, My build is a warmed over 302, E-Cam, EFI and a lot of goodies (no power adders). 2200lb car, 250 lb driver 315-35-17 Nitto NT05R tires and the car will spin the wheels to a 4.01 0-60 time.and about 9.5 sec to 100 mph. if you can get the power to the ground add more motor, but why. an observation i have made is every time i get more power, or do something to add more performance, the car gets less enjoyable to drive and burns a lot more fuel. the car in its original configuration has no issues beating almost any production car, when it hooks up. And when it does, look out. i have already had to replace the 3-link "Banana Bracket" when it has actually hooked up on concrete, and even in that configuration it will pull the front wheels with hot tires. All that with a little over 300HP.

23285

I have been told by many people that 350 to 400hp is the sweetspot. Any more just generates smoke and less acceleration. I am in the planning stage of my build and the temptation to go mad with horsepower is there big time, but I have built a cobra in the past with a 5.7 Chevy HO engine, 345hp and it was just about the right amount of power.

[skullandbones]

What's your budget? I had a stock bottom end '84 351W with AFR185 heads and a custom grind cam and it was plenty for me.

If you want to go crazy get one of these from Forte's: 427W, 535HP http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11831

This crate engine is the best of both worlds. You get the hp and torque but also the lighter block so you can get those quicker jumps especially at 70 mph. It's simple physics. With the lighter engine you don't have to overcome as much inertia. Also, it will stop faster when the need arises. Good luck and hold it between the lines. WEK.

[Bob Cowan]

I have been told by many people that 350 to 400hp is the sweetspot. Any more just generates smoke and less acceleration. .

I read that comment a lot. But I never believe it. If all you can do is generate smoke, then you either need more practice or you need to work on your suspension.

There's no such thing as too much power, only not enough control.

[Plebeian]

Tifford, what tires are you running?

[chopthebass]

I read that comment a lot. But I never believe it. If all you can do is generate smoke, then you either need more practice or you need to work on your suspension.

There's no such thing as too much power, only not enough control.

Surely there has to be a point where no matter how good your suspension you will have too much power to maintain traction. This is interesting because I really wanted the 427 engine with 500+ hp and if I can I would still like to do it!

[SoCalMike]

Hey Chop, talk to mike (QSL) he has the 427 in his car. I have personaly been planted in the passenger seat of that car when he has hammered the throttle and the car hooked extremeley hard. It also handles like a go cart, trust me. Like Mike said, Set the suspension up right and use really good tires and I think you will be more than happy with that engine combination, but talk with him, he is a really cool guy and a world of info.
Hope that helps, Mike











Surely there has to be a point where no matter how good your suspension you will have too much power to maintain traction. This is interesting because I really wanted the 427 engine with 500+ hp and if I can I would still like to do it!

[Bob Cowan]

Surely there has to be a point where no matter how good your suspension you will have too much power to maintain traction. This is interesting because I really wanted the 427 engine with 500+ hp and if I can I would still like to do it!

I'm sure there is some theoretical point. I'm putting over 500hp to the pavement. That's a lot. Other people here are making 700-800hp. Have that much power necessitates a good suspension, sticky tires, and good driver control.

If anyone has hit the "too much" category, I'v not heard of it.

[chopthebass]

Thanks Bob and SoCalMike.

I'm convinced! I will speak to QSL about his build. I'd really like the 427 - just need to find out how to get one in Canada.

[skullandbones]

Hi Tifford,

I might have missed it but I didn't get what rear end you were running. IRS or live axle should work for you since you describe running in a straight line. I don't think getting the power to the road is a big issue for dragging as long as you have big enough tires with the right compound. As far as the other engine details, I think you hit on a very good point. Port matching the components is a detail that a lot of people ignore. So the TF top end kit would take care of that. I have an aluminum flywheel with a Ram clutch/pressure plate and love it. If you have the engine custom built, the 351 with those components would be a real good start. Also, get a cam with the duration that matches your power needs not just the lift (that's the heart of the engine). I've compared carbs with friends and discussions on this forum. I think it is very hard to get an unbiased answer on that (I have EFI), but what I have seen so far is the Proline is an all around good running carb. You might be right that the Holley will deliver more power carb for carb. I ran one on a 427 Corvette engine and it never starved for fuel at the top end. Whether you go with a crate or custom build, you should have a fun time figuring it out. That's what's so much fun about fiddling with these little monsters. BTW, I am assuming you are a thoughtful person, not a mindless 16 yr old so no preaching here. WEK.

[narkosys]

chopthebass: you can get the Ford Racing engines through your local Ford dealer or you can give AL at Western Canada Cobras a call. He works with Fortin's in Chilliwack BC to make engines. My plan for the coupe is a Fortin's 427 with Inglese 8 stack with FAST XFI2.0 with traction control.

You can also order the tranny through AL. And if you do, they can have everything bolted up ready to drop in for you.

HTH

P

[chopthebass]

You can also order the tranny through AL. And if you do, they can have everything bolted up ready to drop in for you.

HTH

P

I thought Al had his own turnkey engine supplier. I will give hime a call and discuss. Thanks!

[narkosys]

Fortin's IS his turnkey engine supplier :P

Good luck with your build!

P

[chopthebass]

I got a quote from Al. Not based on the 535 hp engine though. This was a 600hp 427 and mega bucks.

[narkosys]

I figured the price wouldn't be pretty. I am thinking the setup I want will be pushing 20k for the engine, 8 stack and tranny. Thankfully I can save a few bucks by just driving down to Chilliwack and picking it up myself :rolleyes:

P

[Tifford]

Kumho tires from tire rack are what I'm running. I don't recall the exact dimensions off hand and it is mighty cold here in Northern NY where my FF cobra is stored. I do recall that they are 17" rims in back and the biggest tire that would fit. I believe that I measured them one day against my friends C6 Corvette and mine were wider.

[Tifford]

For the rear end I have a live axle from a 90 mustang. It is 8.8. However, for those who know what I'm talking about, that particular axle came with the less desirable drum brakes and a four lug pattern for the rims....I took the shafts out of the axle and replaced them with truck axles..(Don't ask me which truck) which solved two problems 1. It gave a 5 lug pattern and 2. It allowed me disk brakes in the rear which is a huge improvement.

The 90 5.0 Mustang was a great bang for the buck but I am critical of Ford for not having done what I did with the 8.8 rear end.

[Tifford]

When I started my build I actually had a live axle and a independent suspension that could have gone in. I recall reading a post or two where the independent suspension wasn't holding up to high horse power applications. So I never used the independent suspension. I didn't want the headache of it exploding while under throttle. I had Whitbys out of NC go through the live axle (they did a very good job by the way) and replace the gears to 3:55 and they also replaced seals.

[Sanford]

If your engine is in good shape, you could put on a good set of heads and a stronger cam. Performer RPM intake if you have the regular dual plane. Should wake up that motor. Say Edelbrock RPM or Vic jr. heads and the Trickflow number 2 cam (or similar) with performer RPM intake and Holley or similar 650DP carb. Have to watch cam size with the TFS heads. Your setup was rated at 210HP and 305 Tq from what I could find. Easy to improve on that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series_seventh_generation shows the HO in the F250 up

[Sanford]

That engine you have is rated at 210 hp. plenty can be done to fix that with heads, cam, carb, maybe intake depending on which one you have.

[OVCobra]

Hey Tifford

What part of northern NY are you at? Our summer camp is between Malone & Lake Placid and am planning to be there this summer. I live in Canada.

Dave

[GokartMozart315]

i suspect carroll shelby would've supported op's goals. there should be plenty of power left with a head job etc. have you considered a supercharger rather than turbo?

[Tifford]

I think I have a little more HP and tq than the stock engine. The cast iron intake is gone in favor of a edlebrock duel plane intake. The factory carb which I believe was a 450 has been replaced with a 650 edlebrock carb. The engine does not give away HP to a power steering pump because there is none. There is no emissions equipment. March aluminum pullies are in the front. I also have light weight exhaust headers. Pertronix dizzy. GM alternator. Aluminum CHAMP oil pan.

In its current state about the only two thing left to do (with out stroking, boring and turboing) would be a camshaft and a head change.

Dave, I live in Saranac NY. The soon to be ex wife and I use to take the Cobra up to Lake Placid and Saranac Lake all the time.

[Tifford]

Haven't considered a supercharger due to the added height of it. There is not much room between my "Ford" circular air cleaner and the roof of the hood. Turbos can be mounted off to the side where there is more room.

[Tifford]

I, at one point in time had the victor Jr intake on my car but took it off. At high rpm it ran great but it felt sluggish off the line. The duel plane intake really woke up the off the line acceleration. I am giving a little top end up but with the edlebrock duel plane I gain a whole heck of a lot off the line.

[OVCobra]

Tifford
If a complete new engine is on the table, may as well go big...Ford Racing 460 ci (351 Windsor based) with good heads (I prefer AFR Outlaw 220 for this big an engine). This would be a monster and depending on cam would be very street-able without the weight of a big-block!

May be able to get together this summer, camp is up in Duane,

Dave