Anybody got suggestions on where to buy a motor? -- Total sticker shock, here!

[pyronuc]

I'm looking for a 302 based 347 stroker. I bought a partially assembled MkIV Roadster with the 302/351 mounts and 302 4-into-4 headers, so I need something 302 based. I am not really interested in building a motor, and I would prefer a turn-key one. I've looked and looked at turn-key packages and come up with total sticker shock at the prices being charged. I don't really want to throw out names, but it seems like a fully built 347 stroker (with cast crank, no less, not even forged) and MSD EFI, with Cobra valve covers and air cleaner, seems to cost around $10-$13k depending on with/without clutch and bell housing. Is this right? This seems awfully high, to me -- is this just what the going rate is these days? Can anyone recommend a builder who can do it for a more reasonable price? I'm not sure how touchy this forum is about posting links to non-supporting vendors, so feel free to PM me if you have any better recommendations. It just seems to me like I should be able to find a complete, built, 347 stroker closer to $6k-$7k range, maybe up to $8k with a carburetor style MSD EFI. Maybe I'm just getting older and things cost more these days, but I just can't see winding up spending almost $15k-$16k by the time I also add a transmission.

Best I've found so far, is Levy Racing quoted me $13k for the complete engine and transmission (including shipping), but that was with a T-5, and I'd rather have a TKO-500. Still, that's a lot closer to what I'd expect to pay, especially since that included shipping, but that was also carbureted.

I just hope it really doesn't cost that much for engines and transmissions these days, but damned if I can find anything cheaper.

[FMJ]

Talk with Mike Forte. He's one of the supporting vendors listed above.

[pyronuc]

Talk with Mike Forte. He's one of the supporting vendors listed above.

Thanks. I've been meaning to contact him, just hadn't gotten around to it yet. But now I have. We'll see if he can help me out.

[edwardb]

PM sent.

[FFRSpec72]

So if you wanted to go out and get donor engine, I would expect you would pay around $200-400, to rebuild the complete engine would be around $8000, including parts and machine work and assembly. I keep a spare short block around (I alternate between short blocks every 2nd race season) and the short block build is about 3K (complete pull apart, new crank, bearings, rings, etc.) and a full build with new top end (heads, cam, upper/lower intake, valve covers, carb/fuel injection, etc) is around 8K. Here last full engine build breakdown (this is not a stroker but I don't expect costs to be that much different):

Part Descriptions Part Number Cost
302 Sportsman Block M-6010-B50 $450.00
Valve Cover Gasket M-6584-A50 $39.95
Oil Pan Gasket M-6710-A50 $18.88
Pistons UEM-IC719-030 $475.95
Rear Main Seal M-6701-B302 $11.88
Rod Bearin FEM-C87160CH10 $97.95
Main Bearings SLP-129M10 $72.99
Connecting Rods SCA-35090 $273.00
Ford Racing Oil Pump M-6600-M50 $12.95
Oil Pump Shaft FMS-M-6605-B302 $25.00
Water Pump FMS-M-8501-C50 $43.88
Bypass Hose GTR-63726 $8.39
Timing Cover Gasket Set FEL-TCS45450 $18.69
Flywheel FMS-M-6375-B302 $91.95
Harmonic Balancer FMS-M-6316-M50 $65.95
Cap and Rotor M-12106-B302 $45.95
Ford Racing King Cobra Clutch M-7560-C302N $99.00
Lifters TFS-21400004 $119.95
Thrust Plate FMS-M-6269-A351 $39.95









Machine shop fees $4,280.00
Trickflow Topend Kit TFS-K514-360-SPC $2,759.00 (heads, cam, timing chain, upper/lower intake, throttle body, injectors, MAF, push rods, etc)

[johngeorge]

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/products/79-93-Mustang-50-58-Based-Short-Long-Block-Crate-Motors-Engines

[Bob Cowan]

Yes, these engines are pretty expensive. Start looking at the cost of a dart block, forged crank, forged pistons, etc. Don't forget the cost of a decent EFI system - there's $4k right there.

Never buy cheap parts - they're too expensive.

People have searched around and found crates engines that are less expensive. BUT, they commonly have problems with those engines; cheap chinese parts, shoddy assembly work, parts mis-match. You get what you pay for (if you're lucky).

I got my current engine from Mike Forte. Great engine, and excellent support after the sale. Not cheap, but the good stuff never is.

[pyronuc]

Yes, these engines are pretty expensive. Start looking at the cost of a dart block, forged crank, forged pistons, etc. Don't forget the cost of a decent EFI system - there's $4k right there.

Never buy cheap parts - they're too expensive.

People have searched around and found crates engines that are less expensive. BUT, they commonly have problems with those engines; cheap chinese parts, shoddy assembly work, parts mis-match. You get what you pay for (if you're lucky).

I got my current engine from Mike Forte. Great engine, and excellent support after the sale. Not cheap, but the good stuff never is.


Yeah, I talked with the guys from Engine Factory, and they're going to get me a few quotes for a couple of different options, and I've gotten a quote from Levy Racing, as well. I also sent an email to the Forte's Parts website, just waiting to hear back. It is true you get what you pay for. I guess if I'm buying a complete engine, this is just the price point I have to go with. I had hoped to get something a little cheaper, but there you go. Like I said before, I guess I've just been chasing a unicorn.

[KeyserGogo]

Try "proformance unlimited" in NJ. I visited the shop and everyone there stopped what they were doing to talk to me. Nice guys and full of knowledge. I am too far out to buy an engine (dont plan to purchase ffr kit until August) but wanted to scope this place out because it's somewhat local to me. Take a look at the website, then give them a call, the quote they gave me in person for the package I wanted was cheaper than what is listed online.

[Avalanche325]

Engines are not cheap these days. I went through the same thing as hadn't done a complete engine is a long time.

There is a pretty huge amount of labor in a turn-key engine. You are paying someone to put an air cleaner on and hook up spark plug wires, etc. You might look at a long block, and bolt on the accessories and shiney bits yourself to see if that will save a few $$$. You are building a car, I am sure you can bolt on a water pump and put valve covers on.

One thing that gets expensive is overbuilding an engine.
Do you really need a forged crank? Unlees you are getting north of 7000rpm, probably not. Do you need a DART or Boss block? Under 500-550 HP, probably not. It is all cool stuff, and yes it does add safety margin (and weight). But if you are not going to break a cast crank, you don't need a forged one. You still want high quality parts, you just don't need an 9900rpm NASCAR crank for a weekend cruiser.

There are 347s that put out 300HP and 347s that put out 600HP. A huge part of that is how much $$$$ you put in. I have seen some (Not Levy or Forte) turn keys that are full of no name parts and not much on HP for a 347. The lower HP is probably what keeps them safe with those parts.

What are you going to do with the car? That can change what you NEED in an engine. Of course, what we all WANT costs more.

[Gumball]

Have you looked locally for a used one? This time of year is ripe for drag racers and others to be pulling their engines with plans of "the next big thing" over the winter, so you may have a chance to pick-up a reasonable engine at 1/2 the price of new. A friend of mine just picked-up a Dart-block 427 with AFR heads (long block without intake, carb, distributor, or water pump but otherwise complete to the pan) for $3,200. Not bad for a super strong small block that puts out somewhere in the area of 600 hp. He'll have to put another grand or so into it to get it cleaned-up and back together (he already has an intake, carb, and distributor). I'm sure that a more streetable combination using a less expensive block would be available for a much lower cost.

[LuckyWinner]

let me throw Gordon Levys name out there. I have heard good things about his engines and I have got some stuff from him. I have not met a more friendly guy. I can call him up on a Sunday and ask a question and he always answers and helps me out. Wish I would have had the money to buy one of his engines, and when I upgrade hes the one Im going to!!!

[John4337]

Another vote for Mike Forte

[Unicoiman]

Might give Fred White at White Performance and Machine a call. He builds lots of high performance engines and ships worldwide. Has a lot listed on his web site. His machine shop is excellent.

[pyronuc]

A lot of good advice here. I'm definitely leaning toward Levy Racing or Forte, and possibly still considering Engine Factory. I'm a bit wary of a used drag engine, because I don't feel like a full tear-down and rebuild, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with its condition otherwise. Really looking for a new engine. Probably not really as big an issue as I think, I just don't want to end up with an old drag motor that's had the crap beaten out of it and not worth a damn.

I would consider a long-block. I don't mind doing some bolt-ons, etc. I would just prefer to have someone with a shop that can fully and tune it. Again, probably just me being anal retentive and worrying over nothing.

Either way, its looking like Forte and Levy may be the way to go.

[Feen]

PM sent

[kkm57]

Hi - looks like you have lots of input. After a lot of research, i ordered my 302 engine/trans at the end of August from Mike Forte. Am hoping to pick it up soon - feel free to PM me for more info...!

[Desert Cobra]

I used a Ford Racing Direct motor. A 302 bored to 306. Aluminum heads, but no water pump, intake manifold, distributor, flywheel. The cost was about $3600 and at the time free drop shipping. About May 2012. Sure you don't get fancy crank and pistons but at that price you can't complain. The add on parts are about $600 without a transmission, clutch and bell housing. Throw in a HP oil pump, a few hours to install trim and your good to go. I did use a Holley carb which does simplify things, but nothing you can't handle on your own (or with a few friends).

[FFR5452]

Just a quick note about my experience with the engine factory. My first FFR had one of their 302/350 horse crate engines. Lasted about 12,000 miles until the block blew up. Literally! Ended up going to a boss 302 block and all is good now.

[deathrull]

I was having the same sticker shock issues for what I was looking for and was just about to just build my own when I stumbled across a local builder that would do it for just a little more than I could do it myself. So I went with them. Can't vouch for the longevity yet as I haven't gotten the engine yet. I am having Joe Mondello Racing build mine. 351 Dart block stroked to 427 using the fast ez fuel injection. It will be dyno tuned and turn key for about 10k which saved me a whole lotta nickels from the prices I have seen on other turn keys. As a bonus they are only a mile from my house:) never even knew they were there till recently. I should get it in about 3 weeks and I can post pictures and maybe more info.

[thestigwins]

I had no clue these engines were that pricey. The 5.0 coyote crate sounds like a great deal now. I understand its not for everyone.

[Bob Cowan]

The 5.0 coyote crate sounds like a great deal now. I understand its not for everyone.

For a fun street car, autocrosser, or occasional open track car, the Coyote is a tough package to beat. It makes good power for it's size, it's dead nuts reliable, will last just about forever, and has an excellent price point. If it doesn't make enough power, you can always drop a blower on it.

But, I think for a race motor, it leaves a lot to be desired. It's only 5 liters- getting more is both difficult and expensive. And you can't get a lot more. There's no replacement for displacement. You can't beat cubes. For racing, power adders add complexity and problems. When you race you break stuff; that's just part of the game. That means you have to fix stuff. The mod motors are more complex than the windsors. That adds to repair time and costs.

It's all a matter of choosing the correct tool for the job. For my use, a windsor is a much better choice. But I dream of owning a street Coup with a coyote engine. And a turbo.

[edwardb]

I had no clue these engines were that pricey. The 5.0 coyote crate sounds like a great deal now. I understand its not for everyone.

I spent some time considering the Coyote for my Mk4 build. Certainly doable, and the price point is attractive. But still not a "drop in" and when you look at total cost including the electronics pack, accessories, (likely) custom headers, etc. not the slam dunk for price you might think. Went with a 347 stroker for about the same money. Has more power, proven and pretty easy install, more room in the engine compartment and for me and my passenger, and I can work on it. Add to that the more classic look and sound, and it was an easy choice for me. Bottom line, no these aren't cheap. There are ways to save money with donor builds and more vanilla power plants. But if you want the higher end stuff, you have to pay the price for sure.

[ddorrer]

Try contacting an insurance company recycling yard. They process newly totaled vehicles. You may be able to get a late model Ford Boss 302.

[Gordon Levy]

Insurance auctions on Boss Mustangs right now is no deal. A total is going around $11k-$15K. At most wrecking yards they are waning around $10K for running gear.

[Rootbeer Roadster]

I thought I would give you a different option. I bought a used motor out of a Ford Explorer that had 39,000 miles on it. I took it down to the long block and built it back up with a Holley carburetor. It is tamer than a 347, but gets to 60 MPH very quickly. If you are looking for a street only motor this might be an option for you. I spent around $5,000 for everything including the transmission. The only part used is the long block and honestly with the miles most of us put on these cars it will last forever. It put out 260RWHP and 285lbs of torque on the dyno. I did this a few years ago and as I was doing mine Breeze Automotive was working on a complete package minus the long block. Everything Mark sells is complete and very good quality. Here is a link to one of his packages. http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=825&cat_id=52 He has three other dress selections if you want a different look.

Jeff

[Boz1911]

I have this for sale

https://post.craigslist.org/manage/4154445385

[pyronuc]

I have this for sale

https://post.craigslist.org/manage/4154445385

^^ Bad link? No worky...

[edwardb]

^^ Bad link? No worky...

Looks like this is the one: http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/pts/4154445385.html

[sneasle]

Check out Wayne at VeryCoolParts, I think he is local-ish to you down in Enterprise. If I remember correctly he has built many roadsters for his customers and would be a good local source of information for you.