Are these designs possible?

[D2W]

Does anyone else think that most of the designs being submitted aren't really practical for the final production 818? I know a lot of people seem excited about a hot rod daily driver with roll-up windows and a leak-free top but I don't see it as practical to expect that given the price point and design goals. I know Dave has said he wants to see everything, and honestly a more complete design will probably win the competition, but I think people are going to be disappointed when FFR rolls out a real simple roadster that doesn't have "daily" written all over it. If that's what happens I won't be dissappointed because I'll make a top for it if it doesn't have one and drive the hell out of it. I hope it doesn't end up going the other way and end up an expensive, heavy monster. Just wondering what the rest of you think?

[BrandonDrums]

Xabier's design I think can come pretty close to the target numbers of weight and cost. I think you're right that we can't expect roll up windows or a perfectly sealable top though. I'm thinking a piece of fiberglass with some weather stripping on it with some really basic latches for a top and plastic or plexiglass windows that you manually attach with some large wingnuts and MIGHT have a slot so you can slide the windows down.

The 65 Roadster could have all of that if they just changed the mold for the doors and made a panel that goes over the rollbars. That's how simple I'm thinking this should be.

[Oppenheimer]

I think FFR uniquely has a lot of experience that will come into play in the final result. Not the least of these will be their knowledge of what it takes to build a reliable, leak free Coupe (GTM), as well as an optional hardtop ('33). They know going in how difficult that would be, the costs, etc. So they can make the decision to go down that road, or not, based on real-world knowledge.

I think one thing should be clear, FFR knows what they are doing. They know how to build great cars, they know how to build cars we want. When they want to know more about what we want, they are willing to take the good with the bad in opening up a forum like this for us to all weigh in. Gotta respect that.

Its gonna be a great car. Will it have a top, even as an option? They know many want one, even a deal-breaker, so if there is any way they can do it, and do it right, they will.

[crash]

Not the least of these will be their knowledge of what it takes to build a reliable, leak free Coupe (GTM), as well a...

Who told you the GTM was leak free?

[D2W]

I don't disagree that FFR knows how to build a fast car. But building an inexpensive leak free car that is still easy to build is another thing entirely. I've been following FFR for years over on the other forum, and a common complaint on both the GTM and the Coupe forums is how hard it is to get the doors and windows (in the GTM's case) to fit and not leak. I think Brandon has the right idea with a simple top and snap in windows. I personnally don't care if it leaks a little, still makes it a daily user for me, but I'm also ok with it not having doors:) again think exo car with a body and windshield

[Rotr8]

The design contest has very little to offer in guidance or restrictions, so that pretty much leaves it wide open for the designers to do what ever they want. Each designer is going to put their personal taste and talent into their design no matter if they think it looks like what is called for or not.

[riptide motorsport]

they can do it///////////////////steven

[Olimk2]

Like Rotr8 said everything open...If everything goes thru CAD, it should be "relatively easy" to integrate removable top and windows from the begining. But will it even have doors?

[D2W]

Like Rotr8 said everything open...If everything goes thru CAD, it should be "relatively easy" to integrate removable top and windows from the begining. But will it even have doors?

In my opinion I think it would be better without doors, but I know that most can't imagine a car without doors. An Atom doesn't have doors and its very easy to get into, of coarse its very low unlike most of the designs being submitted.

[kach22i]

It's a dune buggy if it don't have doors.................in my opinion.

I say enter two designs, one as your dream - from the heart. Another to spec or what you think is expected.

Let fate do the rest.

[Olimk2]

What i've done so far, one "mild", one more "supercar oriented" and one following the original concept (to my point of view!), true single donor, lightweight...

[PhyrraM]

With the quality of designs coming in this early in the contest, I'm fairly certain that there will be some that look awesome, can be produced, fit the frame, offer closed alternatives. All at the same time.

It will remain the duty of FFR to recognize a design that meets all the requirements.

My personal wish, more than any of the top/no-top talk, is:

If FFR attempts a design feature (for example, side windows) they do it right. No half assed attempts to please everyone. If it can't be done right and fit in the budget, I (personally again) prefer they don't attempt it. If this means no top, doors, windows, etc., even windscreen, then so be it. The suggestion above that the GTM is not fully watertight is a bit frightening to me. Now, don't get me wrong, I realize the medium we are dealing with and I really do want many, if not all, things on that list. I just have a strong preference to have some of the external items done with the same attention that Jim is giving the frame and suspension.

[D2W]

The suggestion above that the GTM is not fully watertight is a bit frightening to me.

I don't think that was a suggestion, Crash has a lot of experience with the GTM. I guess why I started this thread was because I was tired of looking at designs that I don't believe have any chance of being built. I can go to any number of design forums to do that. But Dave has asked for everything, and what better way to gain ownership of lots of designs for a small amount of money. Does anybody else think its ironic that a company that has built its entire business on building replicas of other peoples work is running a competition where all the submissions become their property?

P.S. I agree, do it right or not at all.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Does anybody else think its ironic that a company that has built its entire business on building replicas of other peoples work is running a competition where all the submissions become their property?



It's genius, really. As seen here, there are some exceptionally talented folks out there willing to use their free time to draw up these designs for all of us to see and judge. I can't think of a better way to come up with so many diverse designs in so little time for so little cost. As I've said before, I think this route is much better than having FFR spend thousands of hours designing something, only to unveil it to find that everyone thinks it's fugly. Think of all of the hours they had in the first GTM design with the "duck's butt", and all of the hours they had to spend to scrap the whole rear of the car and start over........

[BrandonDrums]

It's genius, really. As seen here, there are some exceptionally talented folks out there willing to use their free time to draw up these designs for all of us to see and judge. I can't think of a better way to come up with so many diverse designs in so little time for so little cost. As I've said before, I think this route is much better than having FFR spend thousands of hours designing something, only to unveil it to find that everyone thinks it's fugly. Think of all of the hours they had in the first GTM design with the "duck's butt", and all of the hours they had to spend to scrap the whole rear of the car and start over........

That's crowd-sourcing for ya. It IS brilliant and it's just how this car will end up with a cool design that can be built for factory five prices.

I do see a few designs that just aren't really feasible to build. But I'm sticking to my guns, Xabier's car can be built using FFR techniques. Even with a Targa.

I think what matters most to me is that this car is done right even if it means being a bit more expensive than the target price. This car could ring in at 65' Roadster prices as long as it has a windshield and a full body and I think it will sell better than a barebones exo car.

The demand curve for a kit car is 2fold, one side is the price of the kit, the other is the fact that the customer is going to have to build the car. Regardless of price, they aren't going to spend 6+ months in the garage building something they aren't passionate about.

[Dave Smith]

Guys...

For 15 years I've been running this company. We've learned a TON over those years. Last night I was part of a very select group of company owners and leaders in the automotive aftermarket, sponsored by SEMA. Offline I let some of the guys I respect know our plans on this car as they impact some of the direction of this legislative work... THEY FREAKED OUT.

There is absolutely no way I can keep this secret to myself. Its killing me!!!! I regret it and am destined to live the next six months with a Jim-class eye twitch. Here's a hint, The design competition is part of a much larger launch strategy.... Think bigger guys... forget it. I never said anything.

I need to talk to a professional.

[Kasmodean]

People are confusing me. People want a car that has a top and windows because they want a daily driver. But they also talk about having no doors. So you want to have to climb into your daily driver NASCAR style? I don't see many passengers liking that idea. (Not to mention that the acrobatics involved will limit the size of driver/passengers even more than the actual cockpit clearances) No doors works good for an exocar or topless car but not with a regular coupe.

[keys2heaven]

O.K. Dave, picking up on the local motors strategy...with a twist. So, are you hinting at a possible merger? Freelance design meets production engineered by Factory Five?

[Kasmodean]

Guys...

For 15 years I've been running this company. We've learned a TON over those years. Last night I was part of a very select group of company owners and leaders in the automotive aftermarket, sponsored by SEMA. Offline I let some of the guys I respect know our plans on this car as they impact some of the direction of this legislative work... THEY FREAKED OUT.

There is absolutely no way I can keep this secret to myself. Its killing me!!!! I regret it and am destined to live the next six months with a Jim-class eye twitch. Here's a hint, The design competition is part of a much larger launch strategy.... Think bigger guys... forget it. I never said anything.

I need to talk to a professional.

Damn, now you have my head spin 1000 rpm. I am going to have an anxiety attack just waiting for your accouncements... :)

[Oppenheimer]

Right, now instead of just Dave and Jim eye-twitching, ALL of us are, wondering and hanging on every word Dave lets slip, trying to figure out what this big secret is.

Multiple bodies, multiple drivetrain choices? Something about a truck?

Wait, I know, you build the kit, and instead of just weather = top/no top, you can swap out the whole body. Trackday? Switch the body. Raining? Switch the body. Need to make Home Depot run? Switch to the truck body.

Am I close?

[Gollum]

I can't imagine a mid engine truck that still hauls stuff. Seems like the bed would have to be in FRONT. Boy would that look odd...




It's genius, really. As seen here, there are some exceptionally talented folks out there willing to use their free time to draw up these designs for all of us to see and judge. I can't think of a better way to come up with so many diverse designs in so little time for so little cost. As I've said before, I think this route is much better than having FFR spend thousands of hours designing something, only to unveil it to find that everyone thinks it's fugly. Think of all of the hours they had in the first GTM design with the "duck's butt", and all of the hours they had to spend to scrap the whole rear of the car and start over........

Funny thing, when the GTM was firs unveiled I kind of shuddered at first. I wasn't big on the looks, and thought to myself "good god what have they done. They need an art department before designing something from scratch!" But it's look has grown with me, and I can appreciate that it's a fairly decent "blank canvas" that's allowed people to add their little custom details which really give each car their own character. The Gen 2 is a bit better, and I give them credit for that. I think a lot of us fall in love with the car, and then the looks are just kind of a bonus. It's like meeting that woman that's smart, watches football with you, lets you have your toys, and even hands you wrenches while you're under the car. You love the woman, so any visual imperfections get easily overlooked because they really don't matter in the long run. Same with the GTM. I love the car, and the looks wouldn't stop me from building one, but I don't think it's the car's strong suit.

So in some ways I'm quite glad FFR is pooling from a larger design source to get a car that really looks killer.

[D2W]

Guys...

For 15 years I've been running this company. We've learned a TON over those years. Last night I was part of a very select group of company owners and leaders in the automotive aftermarket, sponsored by SEMA. Offline I let some of the guys I respect know our plans on this car as they impact some of the direction of this legislative work... THEY FREAKED OUT.

There is absolutely no way I can keep this secret to myself. Its killing me!!!! I regret it and am destined to live the next six months with a Jim-class eye twitch. Here's a hint, The design competition is part of a much larger launch strategy.... Think bigger guys... forget it. I never said anything.

I need to talk to a professional.

You've got to be kidding! I have to hand it to you, you definately know how to generate a buzz without giving out any real information at all. You sir, are like a stripper that won't take her clothes off:)

[Jon A]

I agree with D2W. Many of the submissions and demands/desires for the 818 seem outside of the stated goals (especially the <$10K price point for the kit). Of course, only Dave, Jim and the other folks at FFR know what they can produce at that price point and still stay in business and make a fair profit. Some of the submissions seem like full-blown supercars. That is the GTM's niche. I don't see FFR wanting to chip away at its GTM sales and I don't see a 95" wheel base 4-banger as that kind of car. The submissions that look like Lambos, etc. just, to me anyway, don't seem in keeping with the original concept. And for the record, I love the original concept. Light, nimble, cheap and fast... what more could you want? You want tons of luggage space, AC, a top, a radio, factory style windows.... buy a used Boxster or Z4... because you clearly don't "get it". I am not directing that at anyone in particular.... I just want people to be realistic.

Having built a MK III, I can appreciate how hard it is to make a kit car weather tight. That said, if any company in the world can do it well and for a fair price, that company is FFR. The Mk III (and IV) Roadster is about as "simple" a car as you can get (i.e. no top, no windows, no external door latch, one-piece body, etc) and the price is more than fair. Whatever profit FFR makes on each kit, they have more than earned. To ask for more from them for ~$3000 less money doesn't seem fair (unless the yet-to-be revealed improvements in technology are extremely impressive).

I think the design competition is a very cool idea and is a win/win for everyone. Would-be Bertone's and Pinninfarina's get a chance to design a really cool car, build their resume and win some money (if they are lucky). FFR gets a lot of cool designs for relatively short money. Everybody is happy. If you are a professional designer and don't want to give up ownership of your design.... easy, don't submit.

Dave - intriguing post!! I can't wait to see what you and the guys have planned!!

-Jon A.

[mn_vette]

One think to keep in mind is that FFR put in their rules that they may take all, some, or just inspiration from the designs. Just because it looks one way on paper doesn't mean that FFR can just place that on a car. I'm sure they will need to change things to make it fit the frame and easy to build.

[PhyrraM]

Maybe it's time to start a "What is Dave hinting at?" theory thread? :p

[Olimk2]

After "24", "Lost", "Prison break", FFR818 season 1!!!! This project begining to make my wife a "desperate housewife"...LOL

[GS guy]

With the hint of "thinking bigger", it's sounding to me like the 818 may be more of a base platform - on which multiple manufacturers can offer up their own body designs (some possibly coming from this competition). Even multiple drivetrain options.......
Think VW from the 70's........

I like it!

[kach22i]

a base platform - on which multiple manufacturers can offer up their own body designs (
Flashback........................year 2000.

http://news.cnet.com/Photos-Steering-into-the-future---page-3/2009-1041_3-5531922-3.html
http://news.cnet.com/i/ne/p/2005/detroit_skate_500x307.jpg
.......hydrogen fuel cell-powered "skateboard"