818R At Watkins Glen

[bstuke]

John George driving

https://vimeo.com/75831539

[longislandwrx]

Pulling 1.5 Gs at 120. Classic!

[bstuke]

I received a lot of feedback from Jim and John, and it is very exciting to see.

[David Hodgkins]

Bob, awesome footage!

:)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Wow, This is going to be fun. 1.5G+ sustained in corners.
They are going to need a G meter that goes higher.
Will we get setup details like tire size, type, pressures, sway bar and camber settings, for us to use as starting points?

[WIS89]

WOW!

He sure knows his way around that track... Awesome video! This car has a crazy amount of potential.

Thanks for sharing the video. Great driving John; seriously impressive!

Regards,

Steve

[D Clary]

Is the car low on horsepower or did it run out of gear. seemed to stop accelerating at 120mphith a lot more straightaway.

[C.Plavan]

I received a lot of feedback from Jim and John, and it is very exciting to see.

I hope they share with us :)
I ordered the double adjustable shocks for my 818R- I wonder if they are running those now?

[ehansen007]

Is it me or did he run the exact same lap time on lap 1 and 2? Down to the thousandths of a second? Crazy!

[Mark Dougherty]

yes the car had power issues and did not pull much past 5500
they are running single adjustable shocks
Yes he can run laps that close to each other.
The car seamed to heat sink and the RPM's would drop lower every lap that's for another day.

[Mechie3]

The car seamed to heat sink and the RPM's would drop lower every lap that's for another day.

Do you mean heat soak? As in the intercooler wasn't getting enough air?

[Jim Schenck]

The heat soak was from the bigger turbo being so close to the bigger intercooler, we need to insulate between the two for next time. The slow top speeds are a gearing thing with the 6 speed, 6th is a big jump from 5th and the car doesn't pick up speed very quickly after the 5-6 shift. Some tracks this wouldn't be an issue but Watkins Glen is faster than most. We still were ironing out some things set-up wise but any tuning info is being collected to be shared. Our main goal for this test was to verify the transmission conversion and see if the 6speed would hold this power level, setting the fastest possible lap wasn't the priority so there is still more time that can be shaved off with a little more tweaking.

The shocks are the monotubes that come with the R.

The G2X data lists the fastest lap from the session the entire time when it is added to the video after the fact, so the reason it looks like the first two are the same is because lap one was fastest and it matched what was already on the screen.

[EricScottZehnder]

I'll just leave this here: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Watkins_Glen

Typical Lap Times (Long Track)
Car / Class Lap Time Sanction / race / Notes
C6 Corvette 2:03 NASA ST2 (Class Record)
993 cup 2:06
996 stock 2:13
GT3 model on DOT's B stock 2:10
GTC3 996 Cups 2:01/2:02 was the norm but 5 car were 1:57 to 1:59
GTC4 (997GT3Cup) 1:54 to 1:56
BMW E36 IP Class racer 2:14.081
Dodge Viper SRT-10 2:05.7 SCCA T1 Class
1969 camaro ls6,6spd,r888 2:10.9
Spec Miata 2:19.988 SCCA record
Nissan 350Z 2:20
1993 Mazda RX7 2:11 on R compound
Volvo V70R Station Wagon 2:30 on R compound
Volvo 142 SCCA/ITB 2:24.5 class record
VW A2 SCCA/ITB 2:26-28 typical race time
FB (SCCA) 1:54.621 class record
DSR (SCCA) 1:53 class record
FA (fastest SCCA) 1:44.771 Qualifying record - Paul LeCain Ralt RT-41
355 Challenge 2:00 - 2:06
Daytona Prototype 1:43 - 1:49
IRL 1:33
Skip Barber R/T2000 2:08 approx. record
Porsche 944 PCA SP2 2:21.8 record
Porsche 944 SP1 2:23+ 2007 Clash
Mazda RX7 SCCA/ITS 2:14 class record
Nissan NX2000 SCCA/ITA 2:17 class record
SRF (SCCA) 2:13.94 class record

[Mechie3]

Well clearly we need to get down to 1:43. :D

[Santiago]

Too cool. :o

1.5G is just what's common...he's pulling that all over the place. He pulled 1.6-1.7G from 3:18-3:21 in the video (entering at 100mph and scrubbing down to 95 or so). And all that not looking like he was really pushing a hairy ragged edge. This car already has serious speed and only more yet to tap. Really impressive.

That heat soak problem may be a buzz-kill. Aren't some guys routing their intercooler to the front? Seems promising, since there's tons of space up front.

Best,
-j

[longislandwrx]

The heat soak was from the bigger turbo being so close to the bigger intercooler, we need to insulate between the two for next time.

A Perrin turbo blanket, a thermal dispersant coated intercooler and perhaps some gold tape should/will fix this... ask me how I know.

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah, I've still yet to see enough pics of the engine bay of a fully assembled 818 but I was worried heat soak would be an issue.

Depending on how the intercooler ducting is, it's possible that a turbo heat shield with a ducted chimney could work as well. For the 818S, heat soak will be an issue for when the car is standing still if there's not as easy of an escape through the hoodscoop which is where this thing comes in. It's Subtle Solution's turbo 'chimney' which directs all of the rising hot air around the chimney and out of the hoodscoop when standing still and also ducts air to the turbo helping to keep it cool while driving. A turbo blanket or stationary shield just gets hotter.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k251/bclaeys/Chimney%20Duct/ChimneyDuct-Impreza003.jpg
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2407/chimneyductblackforeste.jpg


As for the 818R, you might need a full-on turbo/ic duct as seen on 2nd Gen MR2's all the time. Moving the intercooler all the way up front unless it's a water to air setup is just going to introduce an insane amount of turbolag. That's far too long of an intake tract by any measure. You're better off moving the intercooler all the way to the back of the car next to the mesh for reverse-induction or introducing more ducting to get air to the intercooler.

Where the engine sits on an 818 is similar to the old MR2's (although not as bad) where the cockpit glass/seats is creating a horrible low-pressure zone. The intercooler on an 818 is going to probably get more reverse flow from behind and below the car up through the top vent above the engine than forwards and down. Being that the IC and turbo sit essentially above the engine, you need a LOT of fresh airflow forwards and down through the intercooler to counter the radiant heat and hot ambient air in the engine bay and that's on WRX/STI.

It's absolutely astounding what the 818 is doing around these tracks but I kinda feel that there's still some more development to be done to address the airflow issues for the intercooler. Anyone have any input or detail about the 818's current engine bay airflow situation?

http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/garage.php?mode=view_gallery_item&type=garage_mod&image_id=13467

[C.Plavan]

After seeing this video, I changed my mind and went with the standard 818R shocks instead of the double adjustable. I'm paid in full for my 818R now!!!

I did not want to be a "Pioneer" just yet trying to find the right adjustments on the double adjustable (Plus the $1699 price tag). The current shocks look to be a great baseline. Cant wait!

[David Hodgkins]

This conversation about air flow reminds me; did anyone see RUSH this weekend? (It's a rhetorical question) There are lots of ways to get air, if your willing to start talking about scoops.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22180&d=1380660043

:)

[DARKPT]

Wow, 85-125mph is just spooky fast!

[Mark Dougherty]

jim


SSSSHHHHH

he always runs that close

[skullandbones]

Wow, that guy can drive! Would love to hear a first hand report on the handling. I heard a high pitch squealing noise. Is that normal or are the brakes fading and thus the noise? It seemed to be in sequence with the braking.

Also, it looks like there wouldn't be a lot to add as the shocks used came with the kit. The splitter and wing would be add ons and that's about it!

Again, Wow! WEK.

[RM1SepEx]

After seeing this video, I changed my mind and went with the standard 818R shocks instead of the double adjustable. I'm paid in full for my 818R now!!!

I did not want to be a "Pioneer" just yet trying to find the right adjustments on the double adjustable (Plus the $1699 price tag). The current shocks look to be a great baseline. Cant wait!

same reason that I chose to stay with the standard "S" shocks, not willing to put in the autocross development with the double adjustables

[Frank818]

Not much heat soak problems with an AWIC having the radiator in a place where there's a fan, usually just up front the engine's radiator.

Just saying AWIC is also an option for heat soak. Also, water keeps heat dissipation more consistent.

[metros]

^^^I'd like to see comparison of wayne's AWIC.

We're going to get full details of the modifications to use the 6 speed, right?

[FFR-ADV]

Great Driving! Very Great Car!!

Congratulations Jim & John and the whole 818 development team!

[Xusia]

This car just keeps getting better! I'm glad i ordered one. I'm not so glad it's not here yet. :(

[FFRSpec72]

John,

Challenge car fun factor = 9
818 fun factor = ?

Challenge car factor pucker factor = 10
818 pucker factor = ?

[longislandwrx]

John,

Challenge car fun factor = 9
818 fun factor = ?

Challenge car factor pucker factor = 10
818 pucker factor = ?

22182

This one goes to 11

[johngeorge]

Tony, My neck is still sore from all of the G-forces, that is 3 days later :)

818 fun factor = 11 (grip is ridiculous)
818 pucker factor = 8 (how late you can brake is insane)

Here is another video from Saturday. Ive filled my 5GB vimeo limit for this week, more video will upload on Monday.

https://vimeo.com/75950684

[Mechie3]

I was thinking for the TMIC instead of the baffles and such FFR provides, making a cover with two round ports on each side to connect to hoses that lead to the wide intakes. The sealed cover would increase pressure on the top side of the IC as air can't simply blow to the side and you can duct air directly to it with hoses.

[C.Plavan]

Looking good!

Which tires are you running now? (widths) (R6's or Yoko's)?

I notice mirrors keep disappearing and reappearing- (center and right side) Any reason? Is the passenger mirror not needed with the center convex mirror on?

[Mark Dougherty]

lol
funny thing about the mirror

[FFRSpec72]

lol
funny thing about the mirror

If anything like the challenge car side mirrors I will take the center mirror any day.

I have mixed feelings about the 818R, I have one on order this year for my daughter track car, just not sure it will have the appeal the challenge car has today. I'm sure it out handles/performs the challenge car, but its like moving into the E30 space where cars are civilized and life goes on.

[Jim Schenck]

The tires on the R are Yokohama Advan slicks, 210/610/R17 front and 240/640/R18 rear. The center mirror John was trying both on and off and probably would have been best mounted either higher or lower as I set it for me and it was just at the exact wrong height for him, the passenger side mirror we broke the stem off during the weekend so it isn't there in the Sunday video, also why we put the center one back on.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me. :rolleyes:
Great job Jim.

[longislandwrx]

You guys need to mic the exhaust on the next one to really get pulses going.

[C.Plavan]

That's $1600 of race tires! It better be fast! :)

I guess we will see how long they will last on that light car. Hopefully LONG.

[Jim Schenck]

3 days at the Glen and one at VIR so far and they still look pretty good. We got them cheap since the fronts were old stock (2008) so they ended up almost the same price as the hoosiers we used at NCCAR. We took those hoosiers as backups but never needed them so didn't get a direct comparo but the radial slicks compared to Kumho 710s (a similar comparison) at the Glenn were about 1.2 seconds different on a modded challenge car turning nearly identical times.

[DARKPT]

130+ mph on 5 year old tires, you guys are much braver than I am!

Awesome drive, though!

[Santiago]

That's crazy - 2008 slicks!

Not sure how many folks have much experience with this sort of thing, but that just blows my mind. This sort of tire does not age well (for its intended purpose at least). When they put a fresh set of rubber on this car it's going to shock people (again).

And given what the more serious competition guys spend on tires, this is looking like a bargain...4+ days on old tires is impressive. Maybe what you would expect from a very light car (easy on the consumables). Very-very excited.

Best,
-j

[Mechie3]

210/610/R17 .

Forgive my noob question....

How do I read this tire size? I'm used to things like width/ratio/wheel (street cars) or rolling diameter/width/wheel size (f500 tires). Google didn't help me with this either.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Forgive my noob question....

How do I read this tire size? I'm used to things like width/ratio/wheel (street cars) or rolling diameter/width/wheel size (f500 tires). Google didn't help me with this either.

210 mm wide 610 mm tall 17 inch rim

[JAubin]

I believe instead of specifying a sidewall, the center dim is describing the O/A diameter... so 610mm or 24" ...That's my guess at least, I've never seen that format before.

[JAubin]

Beaten by a minute, hah!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

210 mm wide 610 mm tall 17 inch rim

to figure out the normal number from this
17" x 25.4 = 432mm rims
(610 tall - 432)/2 = 89mm side wall
89mm / 210mm = .423

So this tire would be a 210/42R17

Edit add The rear 240/640/R18 would be 240/38R18

[FFRSpec72]

John, Mark, others, a couple of questions

1. What brakes were on the car? What size rotors ? Willwood ? 13" front ?
2. Stock "R" Koni shocks ?
3. What lb spring weight in front and rear?
4. total weight with you, fuel and car?
5. Frontend settings, caster/camber?
6. Water temps? Is the radiator setup enough ?
7. Oil temps (with engine in rear) ?

[Frank818]

About 2008 slicks. With 2013 slicks, does it mean he would pull 2Gs in corners? :)

[Mark Dougherty]

wildwood
yes stock shocks
no idea where we ended up on spring rates
cars weight 2020
alignment not sure
temps not sure but john and jim were happy

[Jim Schenck]

Wilwood 13" front and rear brakes
Standard monotube Koni shocks that come with the R
400lb front 500lb rear springs
Front end is -3 camber +3.5 caster and 1/16" toe out
Rear end is -2.5 camber and 3/16" toe in
Water temp was steady at the 1/2 height of the factory gauge
(OEM radiator, gauges and even oil pan!)

[Santiago]

About 2008 slicks. With 2013 slicks, does it mean he would pull 2Gs in corners? :)

It would be pure conjecture to say what specific lateral grip could be achieved...but I like conjecture. =)

My experience with 5-year old slicks was that they were horrendous compared to fresh ones. When the boys at Rehagen sold me a set of 2012 slicks this year their confidence in them was put as "they're a year old, but they're still ok." Roger that. I've run 2-year old slicks with some degree of success, but that's about as old as I'm willing to go. Then again, my experience is also with a substantially heavier car (like almost 2x).

I can give my very crude understanding of why I think this is such a big deal. Not sure if the latest and greatest slicks made today use the same manufacturing technique they used to do of only partially curing the tire before popping it out of the mold. That's part of what makes them so soft. The heat cycling they get on track is performing some of the work normally done in the oven for a street tire. In addition to this, time does not stand still for the chemical processes going on in the tires even as they sit on the shelf. For those concerned with a tire's absolute prime, the time frame is short (and once the first heat cycle goes in, forget about it, you're on a downhill slide from there). I think it was Carroll Smith who was pretty adamant about this, maintaining that racing slicks were worthless after 6 months.

Of course, "worthless" is relative to what one wants out of the tire. For Smith, this was the absolute peak of what a tire could offer (which was also limited to the first 5-6 laps of it's life). For what most of us want, the tires have a substantially longer service life. But if you're chasing numbers (i.e. qualifying or competing in time trials) and you're serious about the competition, you want the peak. So you go through a lot of tires...which is why I get decent race scrubs on the cheap (the heavy hitters have no use for them, but I sure do!). =)

By the way, for those whose notion of wanting "the most" out of their tires includes getting a long service life, that first heat cycle's post cure process is very important. You're not going to get a higher peak performance out of them in terms of grip. You will, however, impact the tires ability to maintain a given level of performance depending on the post-cure process you use. Putting a heat cycle on them and waiting a week is best, a full 24-hour period is the recommended minimum. Anything less and you're (a) probably chasing a number and don't care what the tire's fate is after that number is achieved or (b) you're willing to live with a less-than-optimum service life.

Hope that explains my amazement.

Best,
-j

[Mechie3]

Even 1 year old slicks feel hard compared to fresh on my superlight F500.

[johngeorge]

More incar, this time rear-view, look its me!


https://vimeo.com/76106701

[Samiam1017]

I can't find the links. Are they gone?

[Martin]

I'm in awe of this car now. Great driving John. As always, your videos are great to watch.

Martin

[riptide motorsport]

Man........that man is smooth!!!

[johngeorge]

OK, last video finally uploaded to Vimeo. This is from Friday test/tune running not with the time-trial guys but in the race group. We kept adjusting the shifter as the change from 5th to 4th was giving me trouble, compare to Sunday's video and you can see the improvement. Also we taped up the nose by quite a lot with duct-tape to get better aero (things that were identified in the wind-tunnel test earlier this year) but the car ran a little hot so I came in half-stint and had someone remove the tape from the nose.


https://vimeo.com/76380580

[D K]

Can anyone confirm which year 6speed was used?
Also, what was the final drive?

Last question: center diff - welded or sleeve?

David

[da King]

I'll just leave this here: http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Watkins_Glen

Typical Lap Times (Long Track)
Car / Class Lap Time Sanction / race / Notes
C6 Corvette 2:03 NASA ST2 (Class Record)
993 cup 2:06
996 stock 2:13
GT3 model on DOT's B stock 2:10
GTC3 996 Cups 2:01/2:02 was the norm but 5 car were 1:57 to 1:59
GTC4 (997GT3Cup) 1:54 to 1:56
BMW E36 IP Class racer 2:14.081
Dodge Viper SRT-10 2:05.7 SCCA T1 Class
1969 camaro ls6,6spd,r888 2:10.9
Spec Miata 2:19.988 SCCA record
Nissan 350Z 2:20
1993 Mazda RX7 2:11 on R compound
Volvo V70R Station Wagon 2:30 on R compound
Volvo 142 SCCA/ITB 2:24.5 class record
VW A2 SCCA/ITB 2:26-28 typical race time
FB (SCCA) 1:54.621 class record
DSR (SCCA) 1:53 class record
FA (fastest SCCA) 1:44.771 Qualifying record - Paul LeCain Ralt RT-41
355 Challenge 2:00 - 2:06
Daytona Prototype 1:43 - 1:49
IRL 1:33
Skip Barber R/T2000 2:08 approx. record
Porsche 944 PCA SP2 2:21.8 record
Porsche 944 SP1 2:23+ 2007 Clash
Mazda RX7 SCCA/ITS 2:14 class record
Nissan NX2000 SCCA/ITA 2:17 class record
SRF (SCCA) 2:13.94 class record

That's impressive company, can't compare the 818R to an Atlantic car or expect close to the same results, used to race FA and those cars are unreal, spent more time in Formula Fords and I'd expect a FF and the 818R to be closer.

[D Clary]

3/16 toe seems like a lot, how did you come by that number? I run a Mustang with IRS and keep it within 1/16.

[CHOTIS BILL]

I didn’t see anywhere which track configuration was being run or what date the track records were taken but it looks like they were using the long course. The lap record for DSR didn’t look up to date so I checked with the SCCA records and found this:

http://www.nediv.com/images/trackrecords/glen-lc-130526.pdf
DSR 1:46.120 115.341 Jason Barfield Stohr 7/10/2010
FF 1:59.862 102.117 Jeremy Treadway Swift DB6 7/12/2009
FB 1:48.713 112.590 Glenn Cooper RFR 7/10/2010

http://www.nediv.com/images/trackrecords/glen-sc-130526.pdf
DSR 1:15.323 117.096 Dennis Hanratty West WR-1000 9/18/2011
FF 1:20.787 109.176 Charles Foster Piper 9/20/2009
FB 1:19.401 111.082 Thomas Smith Photon 9/14/2008

I pulled out the DSR records that I am familiar with and FF that da King is familiar with and FB which is also mention just because it was handy. It looks like the data posted by Eric is somewhat dated but still interesting.

By using the scientific and always accurate method of SWAG  and using the car weight, tire size, and HP number batted about I wouldn’t be surprised to see lateral G around 2.3/2.5, acceleration around .7/.8 G and breaking about -3 G after everything is dialed in with a new set of tires and a fresh engine. If they don’t quit make these numbers I bet they will still be very impressive and quite close.

As far as how much grip old slick have I have found the only way to tell is to try them out. I had to start a race on sticker slick one race and killed them. The next race they wouldn’t work at all so I gave them away. The guy I gave them to had a little heaver car and said they were close to the best tires he ever ran. I have also gone aero testing with slicks that were several years old and kept for “just in case” and they weren’t too bad. They were definitely a few seconds a lap off but not as bad as you would think. So you never know how good or bad a tire is until you try it out.


Bill Lomenick

[johngeorge]

Bill, we ran the 3.4mi long course

[Santiago]

They were definitely a few seconds a lap off but not as bad as you would think.


This is a good example of what I was referring to when I said "worthless" is a relative term to what your interests/needs are for the tire. For someone like Smith (someone with a near obsessive need to be at the peak of performance and a killer instinct to win), "definitely a few seconds a lap off" is only tolerable if you've run out of money and the race is still running. Think about that for a second and let me set the scene: It's race day, you're about to go out to qualify...on tires that you know are "definitely a few seconds a lap off." A few seconds?!? Enjoy starting from the back. A few seconds a lap is a HUGE difference in the context of qualifying in a close competitive field.

Now, for those of us who are not qualifying or hoping to be at the front of the pack, a few seconds a lap can be very tolerable. I take it that was what Bill meant. That's why I often run scrubs. Many times guys like me just want to enjoy the driving, the scrubs deliver (most of the time), and they don't break the bank. Not at all a worthless tire to me, just a great time. But when I'm gunning for a personal best or in a competitive dog-fight I think I might want to win, even I want those few seconds back.

So going back to what John George did - I don't need to drop a few more seconds to be impressed (just in terms of the raw time pulled I'm already there). Tell me that there could have been a few seconds more to be had - I'm very impressed. That's all. Not often you see a company back up their slogans so well: "Engineered to slay giants, not wallets."

Best,
-j

[D K]

Can anyone confirm which year 6speed was used?
Also, what was the final drive?

Last question: center diff - welded or sleeve?

David

Anyone?

[flynntuna]

found this on face book


this is the STI's 6-speed transaxle in the 818R, the 818's frame and body was able to accept the STI transaxle with no modifications to the kit. the transaxle was successfully converted to 2WD, which will possibly be an option available on the kit in the future (correct driveshaft block-off plate and 2WD coupler, reverse lockout and cable brackets) - Joe S.

[D K]

Im still curious which sti 6speed.
They have different ratios and final drive.

[Wayne Presley]

3/16 toe seems like a lot, how did you come by that number? I run a Mustang with IRS and keep it within 1/16.

We did 4 days of testing at NCCAR and the car planted the rear better on corner exit. I run 3/16-1/4" on the lotus' I race.

[D K]

Are you guys talking toe out or in?

[johngeorge]

D K, they are talking about 3/16 rear tow in.

As for your STI trans gear ratios I believe we were running this:
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Reverse Final Drive
3.636 2.375 1.761 1.346 0.971 0.756 3.545 3.900

but we found 5th and 6th not ideal for WatkinsGlen, so I think Jim will be ordering different gears for the next test.. Gear Ratios: OEM / 2.235 / 1.521 / 1.137 / 0.891 / 0.707

[D K]

So the 5/6 was too short for you?

I think there are a couple of different year sti trans ratios, essentially the 5/6 is different.

Im just trying to see what gearing to run :rolleyes:

How did you convert to fwd?
I know its possible to get a non dccd ctr diff and weld it but it would be much easier with a coupling sleeve similar to the 5spd conversion.

Many thanks.


*edit*
I just read my PM's. Thank you.

[C.Plavan]

Wilwood 13" front and rear brakes
Standard monotube Koni shocks that come with the R
400lb front 500lb rear springs
Front end is -3 camber +3.5 caster and 1/16" toe out
Rear end is -2.5 camber and 3/16" toe in
Water temp was steady at the 1/2 height of the factory gauge
(OEM radiator, gauges and even oil pan!)

Just curious why the R's are shipping with 500 pound front and 300 pounds rear springs? Can we swap them?