818's in Canada

[da King]

I was talking to the factory and they said that its a year back order time for the kit, that kinda caught me off guard a bit. I asked and they said that 1 kit has come to or been ordered to come to Canada. Who is it and please tell me your in Vancouver.
Finn

[Frank818]

****, 1 year. Did they say what the kit will consist off and what's going to be removed from? It's in the process, not sure they updated their website since last week or if it's final yet.

For the guy in Canada, I think he posted here and I think he's on the West Coast.

There is a thread with the people who ordered and when they are supposed to get their kit, maybe you can find the info there.

[Jason Lavigne]

Hi guys,

We do have an approval now for an 818 going into Canada, and I think another is coming up very soon. Can't give out any specifics on who or where the owner is.

The pricing works out as $8,190 for the Canadian 818S ($9,190 for the Canadian 818R), with the reduction in price coming from the Transport-Canada-mandated deletion of the Coilovers, Fuel Tank, CV Axle Shafts, and several other smaller items. If anyone has any other questions, feel free to call in at 508-291-3443 or email info@factoryfive.com.

Jason @ FFR

[68GT500MAN]

WOW, 1 year out - that means the car is selling like crazy! Way to go FFR!
Doug

[Frank818]

The pricing works out as $8,190 for the Canadian 818S ($9,190 for the Canadian 818R), with the reduction in price coming from the Transport-Canada-mandated deletion of the Coilovers, Fuel Tank, CV Axle Shafts, and several other smaller items.

As usual, stupid Transport Canada. :( We can import by ourselves coilovers and whatnot no problem but they don't want them to be part of the kit. :(

Oh well, gotta live with that hey. Someone will most probably offer a package kit of these missing items like with the GTM. Or I will order one by one.

I'll send FFR an email to have the complete list of the "other small items". If it can be disclosed at this time, if not I'll wait until it is.

tnx Jason! :)

[Canadian818]

The completion kit will be soon available through the same company that offers all the other completion kits. For the life of me I can't remember who.

[Triathletedave]

The completion kit will be soon available through the same company that offers all the other completion kits. For the life of me I can't remember who.

I think you are referring to Whitby Motorsports from North Carolina.

I believe there are at least 3 confirmed Canadian pre-registered orders coming up the list fairly soon. 1 in Montreal, 1 in Edmonton, and mine in Calgary. Can't wait!!

[theburner9]

Mine is scheduled in for Nov 2. I'm across the country though if you were hoping to check one out before you buy

[Frank818]

The 1 in Montreal is not mine. lolll Actually I am in the suburbs to be more precise. I hate Montreal. loll

[da King]

I didn't know that there were parts of the kit that had to be deleted, can the missing parts be sent separate? By FFR? - or is that against the rules? As far as I know completed kit cars can't be imported but parts can.
It would be cool to check out another 818, bs with the proud new owner, find out what size of flaming hoops he had to jump through to comply with the rules of our esteemed, highly streamlined and cost effective gov't., and possibly follow the build prior to getting my car. Doesn't really matter though I'm pretty well convinced that I need one, its the Warden that's not completely sold on the idea yet, she thinks I have too many cars already, I don't think that's possible but I am running outta room. I don't know when I'm gonna order but soon I suspect, wait till I show her the new price! "For Canadians only, check it out its written right here, Jason says so."
Finn

[longislandwrx]

The 1 in Montreal is not mine. lolll Actually I in the suburbs to be more precise. I hate Montreal. loll

Hate Montreal??? But what about all those great um "night" clubs?

[Frank818]

Hate Montreal??? But what about all those great um "night" clubs?

LOLLL!!!!!!! Ok you got a point. :)
I meant that the day living in Montreal I hate it. I don't like big cities. It's fun to visit, but I don't like living around buildings, tarmac, pollution, etc. I prefer nature, less people on the road, more space, more fun to drive, etc.


As for the deleted parts from the kit, I don't understand why Canada Transport is so mean, but those are their rules. If FFR has to delete those items, I'm pretty sure they won't sell them apart, or else that would be against Canada Transport's rules, wouldn't it?

da King, you'll never have enough cars! Check our Jay Leno for example, he doesn't have enough, so why would you ever?? loll

[Triathletedave]

I didn't know that there were parts of the kit that had to be deleted, can the missing parts be sent separate? By FFR? - or is that against the rules? As far as I know completed kit cars can't be imported but parts can.
It would be cool to check out another 818, bs with the proud new owner, find out what size of flaming hoops he had to jump through to comply with the rules of our esteemed, highly streamlined and cost effective gov't., and possibly follow the build prior to getting my car. Doesn't really matter though I'm pretty well convinced that I need one, its the Warden that's not completely sold on the idea yet, she thinks I have too many cars already, I don't think that's possible but I am running outta room. I don't know when I'm gonna order but soon I suspect, wait till I show her the new price! "For Canadians only, check it out its written right here, Jason says so."
Finn

I hate hoops, I hate flames, and I hate jumping! That's why I'm going to use Al Beix at Western Canada Cobras to import the 'Canadian' kit for me. I'll be asking him to facilitate the order and shipping of the 'Completion kit' from Whitby as well.

[Jason Lavigne]

Hi guys,

Per TC, the parts have to be sourced separately from FFR. They do state, however, that stand-alone replacement parts don't require prior approval. Just makes it easier down the road if you need to replace any wear items or any items that might have been damaged in a collision.

Jason @ FFR

[Mechie3]

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the excluded parts. Special items with more restrictive safety laws? Tariffs on those particular components like the chicken tax and light trucks? I'm always curious to see the original intent of a law and what the end result always ends up being.

[Frank818]

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the excluded parts.

I just retracted a bad comment about my own government. lolll
What I find weird in this reasoning is that what if people buy those missing items from some place at a lower quality than those in the US kit? Fuel tank, what if someone finds a cheap fuel tank in a crap yard, not meant for the 818 and installs it. Could have dangerous results in case of a collision or wear out badly cuz it's not fitting properly, rubs somewhere, whatever and not designed for the 818.

What if some small pieces like upper suspension arms or links of some sort are of lower quality or again not designed to fit perfectly on the 818 and sustain the 818's traction and torsion on these pieces, it could break and be dangerous.

So yes me too I really wonder their reasoning behind deleting these items. Why such restriction? Why wouldn't it be less dangerous to delete these items rather than keeping them?

Sorry but I won't call Canada Transport to get answers, though. :)

[Triathletedave]

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the excluded parts. Special items with more restrictive safety laws? Tariffs on those particular components like the chicken tax and light trucks? I'm always curious to see the original intent of a law and what the end result always ends up being.

My understanding is that the 'Intent' behind the law was to encourage consumers to purchase parts that are made and sold in Canada instead of importing them. At least this is how it started. Based on that logic then, I should be able to purchase all of the 'deleted' parts from a Canadian manufacturer / retailer and end up with the same quality final product. I have no idea if this is the reality though.

[Xusia]

Let's see...

The gas tank is totally custom. The shocks are specifically built by Koni for the 818. The CV axle shafts are custom.

Yeah! good luck with finding Canadian manufacturer's / retailers!! LOL <-- This laugh is directed at Transport Canada; NOT our Canadian friends from the forum!!

[Turboguy]

My understanding is that the 'Intent' behind the law was to encourage consumers to purchase parts that are made and sold in Canada instead of importing them.

Actually, that is not correct.


The exclusion is based on Canada's law which does NOT allow importation of "kit cars" or motor vehicles under 15 years of age, that do not meet Canadian crash & safety standards. Key parts are being excluded that, in Transport Canada's mind, leaves a part list which does not, as a whole, give you enough parts to build something that they would classify as a "vehicle" or "kit car".



It may help to think of it this way: If a fully running, functioning vehicle is our "100% baseline", then an FFR kit that composes just 49% of this is nothing more than a pile of parts, which makes them legal to import. Any more, and the kit contents as a whole are viewed -in their opinion- as a dismantled vehicle (less a few parts) and is therefore not importable. This is why you take the TC approval letter with you to the border -- it is essentially an instruction to customs agents that you are importing a bunch of parts, not a car, and that they have reviewed the pack list and pre-approved the import.


You can argue whatever way you want, criticize the government policies, vent about it, or insult them -- but in the end it's completely pointless. All it does is get people's emotions flying high and spread mis-information.

This is the position Transport Canada has taken, and the law is the law. Those of us who have FFR's sitting in our garages that are 7+ years old know all about the battle that preceded this, and the tens of thousands of dollars FFR spent on lawyers fighting Transport Canada. Most with FFR importation experience will simply tell you that -at this point- the trick is to understand the rules, and formulate a plan on how to accomplish your goals keeping them in mind.

[Canadian818]

This is my understanding;

"Kit cars" are illegal in Canada. However, a Canadian citizen has the right to build his/her own car. By deleting some key parts, FFR is able to offer Canadians a "starter kit" for them to build upon. 20years ago a lot of foreign sports cars were imported to Canada and the US in crates, with just a few parts and the engine to install. While all the parts were there, they claimed it as a kit car because some assembly was required. And thus a bunch of sketchy sports cars were driving around that were never crash tested. I believe some shops were importing them, assembling, and selling them almost as a legit dealership.

[da King]

Hi guys,

We do have an approval now for an 818 going into Canada, and I think another is coming up very soon. Can't give out any specifics on who or where the owner is.

The pricing works out as $8,190 for the Canadian 818S ($9,190 for the Canadian 818R), with the reduction in price coming from the Transport-Canada-mandated deletion of the Coilovers, Fuel Tank, CV Axle Shafts, and several other smaller items. If anyone has any other questions, feel free to call in at 508-291-3443 or email info@factoryfive.com.

Jason @ FFR

My best guess is that the kit is too complete with these parts or it could be that FFR doesn't make these parts and that's why they can't be included.
Finn

[Mechie3]

^^ That is how people used to try and get R34 skylines in the US. Ship the motor and trans separate from the car, and neither is a complete car nor can be made complete with the contents in the box. IIRC, the US changed the law to say that you can't assemble any components to be the same as a car otherwise non legal in the US.

[Frank818]

Kit cars are illegal but after building you own from a bunch of parts bought from different places, you can still get your illegal kit car insured.

If kit cars are illegal, I wonder if that means we can run without a cat and be as loud as we want, after all how can we be forced to comply to these cars rules if it's not considered a car. loll

[ZincBoy]

Well in Ontario at least, kit cars are exempt from Drive Clean and as such do not require cats :) However, the local police may have something to say about no muffler... This makes the failed secondary air pump on my 2006 donor a bit less of an issue.

[da King]

Kit cars are legal in Canada you just can't import a completed kit regardless of its age. The parts that are deleted from the 818's coming to Canada are parts that Transport Canada figures will make the kit a complete car and not a kit. FFR can't even send these parts later, a sharp eye at customs might put the 2 shipments together then FFR is in trouble. Enter Whitby(sp?) Motors who sell the deleted parts and apparently they will be priced close to the discounted "Canada only" kits.
Finn

[Frank818]

I was planning on driving down to FFR to get my kit in a truck and donor parts from AJW, then all the missing parts I would found elsewhere as well, all that in a the same truck crossing the border. Even though the 3 packages (FFR, AJW and other place for missing parts) would have a proper invoice not relating them to each other, I wonder if the customs would let me through or if they would say all these parts consists of a full kit?

[narkosys]

They would say it is a full kit as you have all the parts necessary to build a complete car regardless that they came from different places.

P

[Canadian818]

They would say it is a full kit as you have all the parts necessary to build a complete car regardless that they came from different places.

P

Agreed. Definitely not a good idea.

[Xusia]

That really seems kinda stupid. I mean, that's akin to saying it's legal for a citizen to build their own car - just not if you buy all the components at the same time. Technically a kit is only a kit if the parts/pieces come from the same vendor/reseller. If you go out and buy everything necessary, that's not a kit.

I'm not saying Transport Canada would allow it across the border. What I'm saying is that according to current understanding of the rules, it should be allowed.

[Turboguy]

Man- lots of misinformation in this thread already and it's still young :rolleyes:


GUYS- my post above is pretty clear. Feel free to have your own opinion but if you want to know the facts re-read my post above, and leave it at that. The information came from my own personal conversations with the actual Transport Canada personnel that lowered the axe on kit-car imports from companies like FFR.

[Frank818]

What TC told you is unclear. It says that the parts that come from FFR should be a bunch of parts and not constitute a kit car as a whole.
Well on paper if I cross the border with FFR's forms stating that their parts do not consist of a kit car, I am ok. Your post doesn't mention anything about importing at the same time another bunch of parts from another place, which also don't constitute a kit car as a whole. loll

Before I get my stuff shipping I'll give TC a call for sure.

Anyway I guess I could say it's for racing only, but if I have no proof that's no better.

[da King]

I hate hoops, I hate flames, and I hate jumping! That's why I'm going to use Al Beix at Western Canada Cobras to import the 'Canadian' kit for me. I'll be asking him to facilitate the order and shipping of the 'Completion kit' from Whitby as well.

I'm going to do the same thing, I checked out the site and called Al, interesting conversation and a lot of info that I wasn't thinking about - don't get your donar car from the States was 1 of a few things he mentioned, I'll also get him to bring in the completion kit. IMO the stress of importing, my time and trying to learn the process to get my kit into Canada makes the cost of Al's service the only option for me. It's really a no-brainer, Al's brought over 400 kits into Canada, he has an association with FFR, problem solved, no worries, my work here is done. Thanks for the info Dave.
I have no affiliation with WCC or Al Beix.
Finn

[Frank818]

Hey Finn, http://www.westerncanadacobras.com/ builds engines to our taste and can provide all parts for the kit?

[da King]

Nice to have some help on this side of the border eh.
Finn

[Turboguy]

In my day job I get paid big bucks for helping people solve problems that most of them create for themselves.


Around here, it's like banging your head against the wall -- for free, no less :rolleyes:

[Xusia]

You must work in IT then! :D

[Xusia]

Man- lots of misinformation in this thread already and it's still young :rolleyes:


GUYS- my post above is pretty clear. Feel free to have your own opinion but if you want to know the facts re-read my post above, and leave it at that. The information came from my own personal conversations with the actual Transport Canada personnel that lowered the axe on kit-car imports from companies like FFR.

Oh. You mean the post above that originally wasn't as clear as is it now, and which people presumably had the original content in mind when commenting since that post and up until now, but was then edited just prior to the quoted post? LOL

I re-read it and it makes sense - NOW. Though it might have been a bit nicer of you to point out that you edited your original post before belittling people... :)

Lastly, I agree with what you are saying: Understand the rules and work within them. When dealing with the government - ANY government - that's sage advice. I still reserve the right to comment on the bureaucratic stupidity of any government!

[Frank818]

You must work in IT then! :D

I do. Seriously.

[Turboguy]

The exclusion is based on Canada's law which does NOT allow importation of "kit cars" or motor vehicles under 15 years of age, that do not meet Canadian crash & safety standards. Key parts are being excluded that, in Transport Canada's mind, leaves a part list which does not, as a whole, give you enough parts to build something that they would classify as a "vehicle" or "kit car".


Xusia- The words in bold (above) are the only items that were different from my original post. I don't see those fundamentally changing the meaning of anything that was written before (or after) them.


No one is belittling anyone, but sometimes something needs to be said. As I pointed out a while back in this thread, some people argue just for the sake of arguing. It's tiring, a waste of resources, and just plain annoying.



Another case in point: Do you recall reading the "H-6 in an 818" thread where a certain poster insisted on posting about the performance and practicality of the flat-6 to the turbo-4, in the thread discussing how-to's of an H-6 install? The thread was not a place to discuss the merits flat-4 turbo vs flat-6 or normally aspirated vs turbo and this was explained to the poster multiple times. In fact, more than one person also kindly pointed out that a lot of those looking at the flat-6 were doing so because of the incredible sound the engines make. The poster just chugged on posting more opinions about why the flat-4 turbo was better, getting belligerent and then started insulting other posters.

If you're familiar with some of this individual's other recent posts it will make perfect sense just how ridiculous this was, and how much of an *** he was being.

[Frank818]

Xusia- The words in bold (above) are the only items that were different from my original post. I don't see those fundamentally changing the meaning of anything that was written before (or after) them.

I agree with that.

[Xusia]

Sorry. From my recollection, more had changed. Perhaps just reading it a second time made more of an impact!

As far as the H6 thread, you would make me go back and look it up! LOL

[Frank818]

Well regarding Al Beix at Western Canada Cobras, here's the answer to my question about offering engines for the 818:


For all of the FFR cars EXCEPT the 818 we do offer engines. Unfortunately we do not work with import engines.

[Xusia]

So, just out of curiosity... Exactly what engines are actually made in Canada (and thereby making them NOT import engines)?

[Canadian818]

So, just out of curiosity... Exactly what engines are actually made in Canada (and thereby making them NOT import engines)?

"American" V8's, lol. The 4.8-6.2l are built in Ontario. Does that make them "imports" south of the border? haha

[da King]

I'm not sure if we make any engines, we do assemble them but I'd doubt that we make engines, the whole thing - top to bottom, anyone know? I have an old Jag E-type with the 12 cyl and some of the alum. parts for that engine were made at the smelter in Kitimat but shipped back to England for assembly. There's the Ford 351C and the 351W, Cleveland and Windsor but the W was just assembled her, I don't think we cast the blocks and forge the cranks here, but maybe, either way it would still be an American V8 IMO.
Finn

[Canadian818]

St. Catharines Plant. I doubt all parts of any engine are made in one country.