Aluminum Fuel Tank by Boyd Welding

[DaveBoyd]

Our aluminum Replacement tank is live on our website. This tank holds approx 10 gallons and gives you 3" of extra leg room.

http://www.fueltankparts.com/factory-five-818-10-gallon-gas-tank-with-aeromotive-stealth-340-pump.html

http://www.fueltankparts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/img_3986.jpg

[apexanimal]

how large is the standard tank in an 818?

[Frank818]

Yes how many gallons again it holds?

[David Hodgkins]

I'm pretty sure the 818 tank is 13 gallons.

:)

[Frank818]

I think you're right, using the search function I found this:


** a note about weight in the article as this had everyone here concerned and we had weighed the car almost 100 lbs lighter. The magazine FILLED the large capacity fuel tank to the top as is standard for all their curb weight tests (ugh! that's 13 more gallons and +91 lbs more than you'd routinely drive or autocross with). Further the 818R cage (+22 lbs), fuel cell mounting hardware/brackets (+6 lbs), paint (+26 lbs), wheels (+16 lbs), and heavy battery (+20lbs) account for another +181 lbs, add in the street seat, carpets, and windshield and we figure the street car should be right in the mid-to-low 1800 lbs range. We will have the street car in the showroom ON SCALES for the Open House!

Dave Smith

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10251-Road-amp-Track-eval-of-the-818R&highlight=tank+gallons

[Evan78]

It says the full tank is "13 more gallons more than you'd routinely drive or autocross with". So it is whatever Dave would put in for routine driving or autocrossing PLUS 13 gallons, so it might be 20+.

Edit: The Road and Track specs page (link (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10251-Road-amp-Track-eval-of-the-818R&p=102522&viewfull=1#post102522)) lists the tank as 18.0 gallons for the 818R. Do the S and R get the same tank?

[David Hodgkins]

The 818R tested had a special tank mounted in the passenger compartment.

FFR says on it's site that the '33 hotrod fuel capacity is 15 gallons; the 818 and hotrod share the same tank.

:)

[68GT500MAN]

Yes, from what I have seen, the 818 and Hotrod are sharing the same gas tank. Mine holds 15 gallons.
Doug

[Samiam1017]

What's the weight of the stock tank. Ad the Boyd tank? Empty of course

[DodgyTim]

Boyd tank is listed at 24 lbs...

[wallace18]

I am getting my Boyd 818 tank, rollover valve and sender today. They are 35 minutes away from me. I bought the boyd 33 tank for my 33 kit. It is so much better IMO. Worth the extra cost to me.

[nikbrewer]

Can we get a credit from FFR for the tank if we plan on buying the boyd tank? I dont really need 2 tanks

[David Hodgkins]

Can we get a credit from FFR for the tank if we plan on buying the boyd tank? I dont really need 2 tanks

I personally don't think FFR should be obligated to give a credit to you for purchasing an aftermarket tank. Their margins are thin enough, and just because someone comes up with an after market solution doesn't mean FFR should help you pay for it.

JMHO,

:)

[Evan78]

I personally don't think FFR should be obligated to give a credit to you for purchasing an aftermarket tank. Their margins are thin enough, and just because someone comes up with an after market solution doesn't mean FFR should help you pay for it.

JMHO,

:)They have no obligation, but they certainly have the option to sell the car with any options they choose. There's no reason they have to make less money by not including the tank. They could simply offer a credit for less than it costs them to build the tank. That would mean more profit for them and less cost for the buyer. Win-win.

[David Hodgkins]

They have no obligation, but they certainly have the option to sell the car with any options they choose. There's no reason they have to make less money by not including the tank. They could simply offer a credit for less than it costs them to build the tank. That would mean more profit for them and less cost for the buyer. Win-win.

Good point.

:)

[wallace18]

Here are some pictures of my Boyd tank #3 I got today. I remember someone posting on the 33 forum if you delete the FFR tank they do not send some fuel fittings you may need. I do not delete the tank with my order. I just find another use for it or sell it. JMO. There are 2 main reasons I went with the Boyd tank. 1st he is a FFR vendor and I liked how my 33 tank from him was built. 2nd the filler, sender and pump are all at the top. This IMO leads to far less chance of fuel leaks down the road. I am not knocking FFR's tank. It is JMO that the boyd tank is a better fit for my build and peace of mind. TEHO.

20757207582075920760

[nikbrewer]

I personally don't think FFR should be obligated to give a credit to you for purchasing an aftermarket tank. Their margins are thin enough, and just because someone comes up with an after market solution doesn't mean FFR should help you pay for it.

JMHO,

:)

I did not mean for them to make less money. It costs them money to make the tank, correct? Just credit the production cost, and thier profit per kit remains the same. Same thing if you wanted different head lights, just deduct thier cost. It just does not make since to purchase a ship an item that you dont plan on using.

[Turboguy]

Any plans to offer a version of this tank with a bladder and foam inside?

[DaveBoyd]

Any plans to offer a version of this tank with a bladder and foam inside?

Sorry, No Plans to do so.

[C.Plavan]

How about a version that does not have the additional 3" legroom, in exchange for additional capacity? 10 Gallons is not enough for some people.

I think some people would like to send the tank in to Fuel Safe/ or ATL for a proper safety foam/bladder (The motor IS right behind the fuel cell). I know both Fuel Safe/ATL will make them custom.

[Turboguy]

Does FFR not supply a tank with the kit? We could just send that one in.

[Frank818]

How about a version that does not have the additional 3" legroom, in exchange for additional capacity? 10 Gallons is not enough for some people.

I think some people would like to send the tank in to Fuel Safe/ or ATL for a proper safety foam/bladder (The motor IS right behind the fuel cell). I know both Fuel Safe/ATL will make them custom.

Yes +1

[longislandwrx]

How about a version that does not have the additional 3" legroom, in exchange for additional capacity? 10 Gallons is not enough for some people.

I think some people would like to send the tank in to Fuel Safe/ or ATL for a proper safety foam/bladder (The motor IS right behind the fuel cell). I know both Fuel Safe/ATL will make them custom.

I think in this case you'd just order their 33 tank. which if I read right, is dimensionally the same as the 818s.

[wallace18]

I think in this case you'd just order their 33 tank. which if I read right, is dimensionally the same as the 818s.

Dave Boyd is coming to see my 818 in the next week or so. He is going to take dimensions and make sure everything is OK. I'll ask him to bring a 33 tank to check its fit and post the results then.

[DaveBoyd]

I think in this case you'd just order their 33 tank. which if I read right, is dimensionally the same as the 818s.

Our 33HR tank may fit dimensionally. The only issue that may come up is the Fill location since it is located in the hinge relief notches. I will be building a larger capacity and confirming fitment on wallace18's chassis soon.

[JeromeS13]

Any updates on this?

Thanks!

[wallace18]

Any updates on this?

Thanks!

All I can say is Dave never came up for a look. I could not wait on him. My tank is installed and covered up with my second firewall. An opportunity missed for sure. IMO. I had only a slight prolem with the sender installed backwards in mine. It was a simple fix. I love how it gave me 3" more legroom. I heard FFR is working on a similar tank for more legroom. Not sure of its availability though.

[bompus]

Has anybody painted the Boyd tank? Is it recommended or just leave it as is? I think the stock tank comes black, so was just wondering if anybody has opinions on painting the custom tank?

[wleehendrick]

The Boyd tank looks so good in Aluminum... why paint it? No need IMHO.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Has anybody painted the Boyd tank? Is it recommended or just leave it as is? I think the stock tank comes black, so was just wondering if anybody has opinions on painting the custom tank?

The stock tank is painted to prevent rust, it is steel.
Painting the aluminum tank is up to you.
Bob

[gwarden]

Can some one show me photos or explain how this tank allows for more leg room?

[metalmaker12]

Check my thread , btw the Boyd tank is what the kit should come with, it is built with quality in mind, while looking nice the way it comes.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Can some one show me photos or explain how this tank allows for more leg room?

2573925740
The stock tank is thicker than the Boyd tank.
You can move your firewall and seat back further with the Boyd tank.
Bob

[wleehendrick]

2573925740
You can move your firewall and seat back further with the Boyd tank.

Yup, and to move the firewall back you need to bend the upper firewall another 15-20deg; Since it's a big piece of 1/8" Al plate, a press brake is needed to do it right. I bent mine 16deg with moves it back 2.5" and allows a bit of clearance between the firewall and the tank.

[DMC7492]

Hi Guys, I am dropping my donor tank. What parts do I need to salvage from the donor to fit the Boyds Tank?
I see it comes with a pump. So Does it come with everything? Sender and pump and internal filter?
Will I need a high pressure filter on the outside of the tank before the fuel Rails?
Thanks Don

[wleehendrick]

What parts do I need to salvage from the donor to fit the Boyds Tank?

You won't need any donor parts from the Subbie tank, just the external filter if you choose to use it.


Sender and pump and internal filter?

The sender is optional on the Boyd tank, $32 extra. I got my Boyd tank with it installed, as well as the roll-over valve. Like this, the tank is pretty much 'plug and play'.


Will I need a high pressure filter on the outside of the tank before the fuel Rails?

Yes, the 818 assembly manual shows to use the Subie filter (p176), however I plan to use something smaller and nicer looking.

[DMC7492]

Perfect answer!!! Thanks Don

[rori]

What size fittings do I need for the fuel and return line? Where did you order them from? Thanks

[wleehendrick]

What size fittings do I need for the fuel and return line? Where did you order them from? Thanks

I've installed my Boyd tank, but haven't hooked up the lines yet; the Boyd website says:

QUICK OVERVIEW
Product Number: 14030

Tank Dimensions: 46.5 x 6.5 x 10
Tank Thickness: 1/8"
Material Grade: 5052 Aluminum
Approx Weight: 24 LBS
Tank Baffles: 2

Fill: 2" OD Ribbed For Hose
Vent: 1/2" NPT ( Rollover Valve Optional)
Draw: 3/8 NPT
Return: 3/8 NPT
Drain: N/A
Sending Unit Flange: Yes (0-90 Ohm Sending Unit Optional)
Mounting Tabs: (4) 2 x 2 x 2" Long

[rori]

Thanks. Looks like we need two 3/8NPT with 5/16" hose barb

[wleehendrick]

Thanks. Looks like we need two 3/8NPT with 5/16" hose barb

Yup, unless you install fancier hose and connectors (braided SS and anodized fittings) like some have done.

[dougkirkbride]

Yes, the 818 assembly manual shows to use the Subie filter (p176), however I plan to use something smaller and nicer looking.

Doesanyone know where this filter is located. My donar was a 2006 wrx wagon and i swear it didnt exist. if i remember correctly all the documentation i had on the maint manual said there was a filter in the tank but i sure would hate to change it.

[longislandwrx]

05+ only had the in tank filter.

[STiPWRD]

Doesanyone know where this filter is located. My donar was a 2006 wrx wagon and i swear it didnt exist. if i remember correctly all the documentation i had on the maint manual said there was a filter in the tank but i sure would hate to change it.

The stock fuel filter is located in the engine bay near the washer fluid tank. It's not in the fuel tank. As others have mentioned, it can be replaced with a better looking aftermarket filter.
26734

[STiPWRD]

05+ only had the in tank filter.

Interesting, didn't know that! I'm using an 02.

[metros]

For those interested in finding a nicer looking fuel filter option, take a look at Golan fuel filters. They're pricey up front ($85 IIRC) but they're also serviceable, so you'll get to keep the nice appearance without shelling out that much cash each filter change. They also have options that are E85 capable if anyone is planning a corn build.

[bompus]

There's also RobbMc filters. Does anybody have experience with either RobbMc or Golan filters?

[wleehendrick]

The RobbMc looks great. I would think the small 10um filter (75GPH) would be perfect to put in the fuel line. Thanks for the info!

[AZPete]

Thanks, guys. Just ordered the RobbMc 10 micron, up to 75 GPH filter - PN 1072.

[metalmaker12]

The stock fuel filter is located in the engine bay near the washer fluid tank. It's not in the fuel tank. As others have mentioned, it can be replaced with a better looking aftermarket filter.
26734

There might be some confusion, the wrx has a filter in the engine bay and on the top fuel pump sock. This is prob were it got messed up.

[FFRSpec72]

Seems Boyd is using the wrong sender and sender ohm range so the sender that Boyd supplies will not work with the stock Subaru gauge cluster. See http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14086-Subaru-Fuel-Sender-ohm-range

[wallace18]

Seems Boyd is using the wrong sender and sender ohm range so the sender that Boyd supplies will not work with the stock Subaru gauge cluster. See http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14086-Subaru-Fuel-Sender-ohm-range
I would disagree. I bought the 3rd tank made and other than the float was on the wrong side it works perfect with my 2002 WRX cluster. JMTCW.

[FFRSpec72]

I would disagree. I bought the 3rd tank made and other than the float was on the wrong side it works perfect with my 2002 WRX cluster. JMTCW.

Seems you are not using the optional Centroid sender as Centroid does not use a float, just look at Boyd site "Sending Unit Flange: Yes (0-90 Ohm Sending Unit Optional)" Subaru use 90-0 ohm.

[K3LAG]

Seems you are not using the optional Centroid sender as Centroid does not use a float, just look at Boyd site "Sending Unit Flange: Yes (0-90 Ohm Sending Unit Optional)" Subaru use 90-0 ohm.

The Boyd provided sender is not a Centroid. It is a basic float type sender. As shipped by Boyd it reads backwards, but 5 minutes with a screwdriver to reverse the float and it's fine.

[Wayne Presley]

Yes, the sender can be reversed by moving the float to the other side.

[AZPete]

Guys, I'm confused about my Boyd tank. It came with the Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump and a 0-90 Ohm sending unit. I've seen the build thread of Wallace18 (post #82) but could someone please post detailed instructions of the required fix - hopefully with before and after photos? Thanks!

[wallace18]

Guys, I'm confused about my Boyd tank. It came with the Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump and a 0-90 Ohm sending unit. I've seen the build thread of Wallace18 (post #82) but could someone please post detailed instructions of the required fix - hopefully with before and after photos? Thanks!

Pete, It is simple. Look at the float. Just move the unit so the wiper reads opposite it is now. I do not have photos. I know you can do it bro. Check with your ohm meter and should be 90-0 when done. It is not rocket science.

[Xusia]

So 90 is when it's full or when it's empty?

[FFRSpec72]

So 90 is when it's full or when it's empty?

Here you go

28138

[Goldwing]

I need to check mine when I get home to see if the more recent tanks are setup properly. Just in case the photo link goes dead on a later date, I read that as near 0 ohms full and near 90 ohms empty.

[Goldwing]

Ah, which reminds me. I remember being confused as to why some had talked about using a 5 ohm resister in series in the circuit to ensure the displayed fuel level was more accurate at empty. After Reading the picture I get it now, adding the two fuel level sensors listed in the manual would be 92-96 (not 90) ohms when empty. So the Boyd sender by itself may not reach a high enough resistance to get the cluster to read fully when the tank is empty. (False sense of security anyone?, lol). Since most fuel gauges can read a few needle widths above full and below empty, I bet there is a sweet spot of say 3 or 4 ohms that gets the gauge to read ON full when full, and ON empty when empty, but with a priority on getting the "empty" reading accurate of course.

[FFRSpec72]

Ah, which reminds me. I remember being confused as to why some had talked about using a 5 ohm resister in series in the circuit to ensure the displayed fuel level was more accurate at empty. After Reading the picture I get it now, adding the two fuel level sensors listed in the manual would be 92-96 (not 90) ohms when empty. So the Boyd sender by itself may not reach a high enough resistance to get the cluster to read fully when the tank is empty. (False sense of security anyone?, lol). Since most fuel gauges can read a few needle widths above full and below empty, I bet there is a sweet spot of say 3 or 4 ohms that gets the gauge to read ON full when full, and ON empty when empty, but with a priority on getting the "empty" reading accurate of course.

I doubt the Boyd sensor has slosh control as that why the Subaru has 2 sensors in series.

[K3LAG]

I doubt the Boyd sensor has slosh control as that why the Subaru has 2 sensors in series.

It's damped by the electronics in the cluster. When bench testing my cluster it took over 30 seconds for the needle to move from one end to the other when the input was changed from 0 ohms to 90 ohms.

The reason there are two sensors is because the tank is divided into two compartments.

From the factory service manual:

All models are equipped with two fuel level sensors. These sensors are installed in the fuel tank,
one on the right side and the other on the left side. Two sensors are necessary because the fuel
tank is divided into main and sub tank compartments.

[FFRSpec72]

The reason there are two sensors is because the tank is divided into two compartments.


The tank is not physically divided into to 2 separate tanks, it is compartmented to reduce slosh and the summed sensors are averaged. if there are senders at both ends, ideally an increase in ohms at one end as it goes more empty will be negated by a decrease in ohms at the other end as it goes more full, with the sum of the two approximately unchanged despite the tilt.

[AZPete]

Pete, It is simple. Look at the float. Just move the unit so the wiper reads opposite it is now. I do not have photos. I know you can do it bro. Check with your ohm meter and should be 90-0 when done. It is not rocket science.

Geez, you say it's simple, but I read the resistance before I did anything as 9.1 Ohms - see photo #1. Is that close enough to zero?
28315


Then, I removed the sender and it reads 7.8 Ohms. Photo #2.
28316

I loosened the pivot screw and reinstalled the float on the other side so it matches the photo in Wallace18's build thread, post #82 - see photo #3.
28317
The resistance was 94 Ohms in the empty position and 7.8 in the full position - not 90 - 0, but okay? However, when I went to remount the sender into the Boyd tank the float rod hits the side wall and round top mount with 5 holes will only go one way. Should I also remount the sender mechanism 180 degrees on the top circle mount? Or, move the lower mechanism to the other side of the vertical piece? This may be handy for others following, also.

[K3LAG]

I loosened the nuts and rotated mine 180 degrees.

[Erik W. Treves]

x2 did the same thing on mine..works great!

[CU9DZ]

I just installed my Boyd Welding tank and have a question on the fuel level sender. Some people are saying I have to reverse the lever on the sending unit. Does anybody have before and after pics? Also what should it read for resistance before and after?
Dave

[AZPete]

Dave, that confused me also but I eventually got it right, with help from others. See Post #42 in the Tips thread:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11115-818-assembly-tips-add-yours/page2

[CU9DZ]

OK I just read the posts above and found the answer. I will do a resistance test after lunch.
Dave

[CU9DZ]

OK I just read the posts above and found the answer. I will do a resistance test after lunch.
Dave

[CU9DZ]

I tested it before I changed anything. 7.8ohm empty and 94.9ohm full. Then I reversed the float like the pics and swiveled the top round piece that screws to the tank. Now I get about 1.4ohm no mater what I do. Did I break the variable resister or the white wire? Dave

[CU9DZ]

OK Today was a better day. I loosened the nuts on the center post of fuel level sensor and then re-tightened. Now the resistor seems to be working so I installed it in the Boyd tank. Can't test anything further until I get wiring, fuel lines and cooling system in. Thanks for the help.
Dave

[billjr212]

Reviving an old thread - how are people enjoying their Boyd tanks? Have there been any revisions since V1? Any revival in the interest to make a larger tank filling the entire space, rather than leaving a gap to the firewall or having to re-bend the firewall?

I have reached the point of fed up with my leaking original tank and just priced out the new one from FFR at nearly the same price as the Boyd tank. Before I plop down over $600 on the new Boyd tank though, I'd like to hear how it's working out for people.

[Wayne Presley]

They work great, was a slight revision but they are really good.

[wallace18]

Reviving an old thread - how are people enjoying their Boyd tanks? Have there been any revisions since V1? Any revival in the interest to make a larger tank filling the entire space, rather than leaving a gap to the firewall or having to re-bend the firewall?

I have reached the point of fed up with my leaking original tank and just priced out the new one from FFR at nearly the same price as the Boyd tank. Before I plop down over $600 on the new Boyd tank though, I'd like to hear how it's working out for people.

Boyd tank is well worth the money. I used 1 in my 33 and 1 in my 818.

[D Clary]

Does anyone have fuel starvation when cornering? How much usable fuel is in the tank?

[JeromeS13]

Does anyone have fuel starvation when cornering? How much usable fuel is in the tank?

Yes, on right hand turns and < 25% fuel.

[D Clary]

That would reduce the usable fuel to around 7 gallons.

[JeromeS13]

That would reduce the usable fuel to around 7 gallons.

Perhaps on track, yes. Around town, it's fine. I think I've had it all the way down to like 2 gallons or so? Even then, I didn't notice any sputtering with normal driving.

[07FIREBLADE]

Would love to have them just make a full size tank instead of having to move the firewall back.

[philly15]

i have a question for those running the boyd tank, on the website, it says not intended for racing use, additional baffling maybe be required. Has anyone had any issues with their tank in a racing environment? also has anyone looked into the installation of baffling? does boyd offer it? i want to switch away from the factory five one, i hate not knowing how much fuel i actually have :/

[JeromeS13]

Just fill it up after each session, you'll be fine.

[Pearldrummer7]

i have a question for those running the boyd tank, on the website, it says not intended for racing use, additional baffling maybe be required. Has anyone had any issues with their tank in a racing environment? also has anyone looked into the installation of baffling? does boyd offer it? i want to switch away from the factory five one, i hate not knowing how much fuel i actually have :/

I agree with this sentiment^ I also am looking to switch from the hotrod tank I got from FFR. Anyone have experience on track with this tank?

[Aero STI]

After 500 miles of use, 400 miles on E85 my Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump that came with the boyd tank has failed. If you have any intention of running E85 I would strongly advise against running the aeromotive pump that comes with the tank.

Reading the FAQ for the pump they say it's not designed for e85, but Walbro says the same thing about their tried and true 255 pump and everyone has years of success on high ethanol fuel. I even followed the filtering instructions and haven't reached 10 hours of run time. I'm switching to a Walbro 450.

9.) Q: Can the 340 Stealth Pump be used safely in e85 and how much HP will it support?

A: E85 fuel has become a viable option for street performance enthusiasts in recent years. It has some very significant pros, and equally significant cons, to consider. It does provide higher octane, and lower charge air temperatures, and is especially popular in forced induction applications, permitting more aggressive combinations of boost, compression ratios and tuning. It is also less costly per-gallon than high-octane racing gasoline. That said, fuel usage increases 30-35% to support equal HP, somewhat offsetting the lower cost and requiring the HP rating of all fuel system components, including and especially the HP ratings of the fuel pump and fuel injectors, be reduced by 30-35%.

A crucial consideration regarding whether or not to run E85 is its tendency to rapidly and frequently contaminate and clog/block fuel filters, resulting in significant flow restrictions, which in turn may damage the engine and/or cause premature fuel pump failure. The reasons for filter contamination problems with E85 include:

E85 is an alcohol based fuel, and alcohols are hygroscopic (attract and absorb water from the atmosphere), which can accumulate in and clog fine filter elements.
E85 is an agriculturally produced fuel and, being a byproduct of plant material, there have been indications some of this “bio-mass” can accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.
E85 has very strong solvent properties, like many alcohol based liquids, which will act to strip accumulated debris and residues from transport and storage containers, and the inside of fuel tanks and fuel lines, which in turn accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.
Aeromotive has conducted extensive testing of the 340 Stealth Pump in E85 fuel, achieving 1,000 plus run hours of service life operating at 60 PSI and 13.5 Volts. In testing, it was found a filter service interval that gave good fuel pump service life required a new, down-stream filter be installed every 10 run-hours. It is vital to understand that a blocked filter creates severe flow restriction of pump output, building excessively high operating pressure between the pump and the contaminated element. If the Stealth 340 is allowed to run in this environment, operating pressures between pump and filter can exceed 90 PSI, creating extreme current draw and reduced cooling flow, resulting in rapid failure of the fuel pump motor assembly.

WARNING: If you plan to run E85 fuel you must be prepared to install proper filtration, and maintain it as frequently as every 10 run-hours. If not, Aeromotive does NOT recommend you the use of E85 with the 340 Stealth Fuel Pump. Aeromotive’s new product warranty assures the purchaser their 340 Stealth Pump will be free from defects in material and workmanship for one year from the date of purchase. Fuel pump failure caused by clogged/blocked fuel filters is not the result of any defect in the pump itself, and is not covered under this warranty.

For a detailed look at post-pump filter options and what a good one should be like, please see Aeromotive Tech Bulletin: Post-Pump Fuel Filtration TB-102 here:

http://dev.aeromotiveinc.com/post-pump-fuel-filtration/

For a specific example of the issues related to a clogged post-pump filter, please take a moment to see the Case History File embedded in TB-102 here:

http://dev.aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/TB-102-Case-File.pdf

- See more at: http://aeromotiveinc.com/frequently-asked-questions/faq-340-stealth-fuel-pumps/#sthash.H8fhs8r7.dpuf

[JeromeS13]

After 500 miles of use, 400 miles on E85 my Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump that came with the boyd tank has failed. If you have any intention of running E85 I would strongly advise against running the aeromotive pump that comes with the tank.

Reading the FAQ for the pump they say it's not designed for e85, but Walbro says the same thing about their tried and true 255 pump and everyone has years of success on high ethanol fuel. I even followed the filtering instructions and haven't reached 10 hours of run time. I'm switching to a Walbro 450.

9.) Q: Can the 340 Stealth Pump be used safely in e85 and how much HP will it support?

A: E85 fuel has become a viable option for street performance enthusiasts in recent years. It has some very significant pros, and equally significant cons, to consider. It does provide higher octane, and lower charge air temperatures, and is especially popular in forced induction applications, permitting more aggressive combinations of boost, compression ratios and tuning. It is also less costly per-gallon than high-octane racing gasoline. That said, fuel usage increases 30-35% to support equal HP, somewhat offsetting the lower cost and requiring the HP rating of all fuel system components, including and especially the HP ratings of the fuel pump and fuel injectors, be reduced by 30-35%.

A crucial consideration regarding whether or not to run E85 is its tendency to rapidly and frequently contaminate and clog/block fuel filters, resulting in significant flow restrictions, which in turn may damage the engine and/or cause premature fuel pump failure. The reasons for filter contamination problems with E85 include:

E85 is an alcohol based fuel, and alcohols are hygroscopic (attract and absorb water from the atmosphere), which can accumulate in and clog fine filter elements.
E85 is an agriculturally produced fuel and, being a byproduct of plant material, there have been indications some of this “bio-mass” can accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.
E85 has very strong solvent properties, like many alcohol based liquids, which will act to strip accumulated debris and residues from transport and storage containers, and the inside of fuel tanks and fuel lines, which in turn accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.
Aeromotive has conducted extensive testing of the 340 Stealth Pump in E85 fuel, achieving 1,000 plus run hours of service life operating at 60 PSI and 13.5 Volts. In testing, it was found a filter service interval that gave good fuel pump service life required a new, down-stream filter be installed every 10 run-hours. It is vital to understand that a blocked filter creates severe flow restriction of pump output, building excessively high operating pressure between the pump and the contaminated element. If the Stealth 340 is allowed to run in this environment, operating pressures between pump and filter can exceed 90 PSI, creating extreme current draw and reduced cooling flow, resulting in rapid failure of the fuel pump motor assembly.

WARNING: If you plan to run E85 fuel you must be prepared to install proper filtration, and maintain it as frequently as every 10 run-hours. If not, Aeromotive does NOT recommend you the use of E85 with the 340 Stealth Fuel Pump. Aeromotive’s new product warranty assures the purchaser their 340 Stealth Pump will be free from defects in material and workmanship for one year from the date of purchase. Fuel pump failure caused by clogged/blocked fuel filters is not the result of any defect in the pump itself, and is not covered under this warranty.

For a detailed look at post-pump filter options and what a good one should be like, please see Aeromotive Tech Bulletin: Post-Pump Fuel Filtration TB-102 here:

http://dev.aeromotiveinc.com/post-pump-fuel-filtration/

For a specific example of the issues related to a clogged post-pump filter, please take a moment to see the Case History File embedded in TB-102 here:

http://dev.aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/TB-102-Case-File.pdf

- See more at: http://aeromotiveinc.com/frequently-asked-questions/faq-340-stealth-fuel-pumps/#sthash.H8fhs8r7.dpuf

I must be super lucky then... I have nearly 3,000 miles on my setup with 90% of that being e85...

[longislandwrx]

I mentioned this a while back.. Run the DW300 pump, they are the only company that will stand behind their product when it comes to e85... the service life on the others is laughable.

I will try and find my post, but yeah I posted the same thing... 10hrs lol.


here it is...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13745-818-FIA-Fuel-Cell-Design-Quote&p=145013&viewfull=1#post145013

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13745-818-FIA-Fuel-Cell-Design-Quote&p=145335&viewfull=1#post145335

[Aero STI]

Boyd should not include the aeromotive pump with the tank because there are numerous better options.

Walbro 450 is the pump for me. Fully E85 compatible, OEM quality, and outperforms all other in-tank pumps.

http://walbrofuelpumps.com/walbro-f90000267-fuel-pump-e85

[wallace18]

I am sure they would delete the pump if you asked them to.

[Mechie3]

Any pics of the filler neck attached? Removed my pump to add a vent on the tank and the inside is rusty. Awesome. Considering the Boyd tank now.

[Mechie3]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12267-The-Start-of-a-Journey-Metros-Build-Thread&p=224321&viewfull=1#post224321

Found that. Is everyone else doing the same? Wiring the same as well minus needing to mod the level sender potentially?

[longislandwrx]

Any pics of the filler neck attached? Removed my pump to add a vent on the tank and the inside is rusty. Awesome. Considering the Boyd tank now.


well this is fun to hear. scared to check now.

If it is, I will probably pull it and do a POR coating.

[Mechie3]

I should've gone this route a long time ago really.

1: FFR tank didn't even fit in the car. FFR suggested to "just pound it in with a hammer". I did this and the tank folded, creased, and cracked. I had to cut off the corner and reweld it.
2: Fuel pump barely fit inside
3: Lots of stories of leaky seals
4: Fuel fill port is right in the way of the coolant lines coming off the motor
5: Now the inside is rusty

Awesome. :unamused:


http://i.imgur.com/fpeGftT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yPbauCo.jpg

[Frank818]

1: FFR tank didn't even fit in the car. FFR suggested to "just pound it in with a hammer". I did this and the tank folded, creased, and cracked. I had to cut off the corner and reweld it.
2: Fuel pump barely fit inside
3: Lots of stories of leaky seals
4: Fuel fill port is right in the way of the coolant lines coming off the motor
5: Now the inside is rusty

I have none/fixed all these issues but I am interested in #5. Is it cuz you did #1 so the consequence was a rusty tank in #5?

[Mechie3]

No idea. Indy tends to have humid summers (though last summer was great). The welding could have done something but was on the far side of the tank. The walbro fuel pump rusted as well and looks like a barnacle covered cylinder. All I know is that given the odds I'd rather not roll.

[THE FURNACE]

You've got me thinking...

[07FIREBLADE]

Question for those that did the Boyd tank swap with the original firewall what degree did you have to bend the firewall to to get the extra few inches of clearance. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[07FIREBLADE]

Nvm found it its 15* according to metros thread that mechie linked too

[longislandwrx]

I wish the boyd tank wasn't so small... I don't think anyone ever confirmed or not if the std 33 tank fit the 818.

Mechie you up for it?

[Wayne Presley]

Question for those that did the Boyd tank swap with the original firewall what degree did you have to bend the firewall to to get the extra few inches of clearance. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Just cut the horizontal step to 1"on each side then stack the top overlapping and bolt or weld together

[Mechie3]

I wish the boyd tank wasn't so small... I don't think anyone ever confirmed or not if the std 33 tank fit the 818.

Mechie you up for it?

I'm pretty sure that RM1Sepex got a 33 tank by acccident to begin with from FFR and it didn't fit because the filler was on the wrong side and flipping it made it hit the firewall? He (and I) have the original slanted firewall as well, not FFR's new thinner firewall with the horizontal step in it.

I'll email Boyd and see if he'll give me dimensions so I can make a cardboard mockup to test fit. I was planning to ask for a 33 tank with the filler moved to the same location as their existing 818 tank.

edit: I'd also like to see what it costs to add an internal baffle to make it a two compartment tank with a small tank on one side with fittings to work like a surge tank.

[idf]

Question for those that did the Boyd tank swap with the original firewall what degree did you have to bend the firewall to to get the extra few inches of clearance. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I bent the top section of mine 15 degrees and the bottom section so it was straight. In retrospect a few more degrees of bend would have been better, but 15 degrees worked. I cut about 1 1/4 inches off the bottom edge of the top section.

As have others, I had to reverse the float on the sending unit then turn the unit 180 degrees to make it read correctly and not contact the tank wall.

For the filler I used an RV filler elbow (Gates 24717) off the tank and cut the FFR filler tube for the top section.51594

[RM1SepEx]

The 33 tank fit in place however the fill wasn't in the right location, it came out of the top of the tank IIRC, I sent it to someone for shipping cost, don't remember who

My new tank "fit" because Tony Z pre hammered the corners. Craig's newest findings have me very concerned. I'm sick and tired of having to redo stuff on this car! I may just bite the bullet and go to a front mounted tank with baffling. Maybe even do two tanks with one in my now empty due to iWire harness center console area.

I'm working on detailing the interior and might need to pull out a rusting fuel tank? Really? BTW the fuel gauge is pretty much useless due to the tank design too.

[wleehendrick]

I bent the top section of mine 15 degrees and the bottom section so it was straight. In retrospect a few more degrees of bend would have been better, but 15 degrees worked. I cut about 1 1/4 inches off the bottom edge of the top section.


So glad I decided to go for the Boyd tank when I started my build (a long time ago)! 15deg will still leave a bit of a gap from the tank to firewall; I brought my firewall to a friend-of-a-friend's shop that has a nice big press brake and bent it closer to 20deg; 18-19deg, IIRC.

[Ethan818]

Would love to have them just make a full size tank instead of having to move the firewall back.

I am also interested in this. Will take some measurements tonight and see how much more a larger tank would be for those of us that don't need the extra inches of leg room.

[matteo92065]

Before you install your new tank, put in some baffle or some other way of managing fuel when less than 1/3 tank. I was very surprised to run out of fuel on an easy 90 degree right hand turn.
To drive hard I have to carry no less than 5 gallons, which is a lot on a 10 gallon tank.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I am also interested in this. Will take some measurements tonight and see how much more a larger tank would be for those of us that don't need the extra inches of leg room.

Boyd will make any custom tank you want.
My 13 gallon tank is stuffed with foam to the top. I have had it down to 2 gallons and have had no starvation on an autocross course.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32715&d=1408672124

[longislandwrx]

I'd also like to see what it costs to add an internal baffle to make it a two compartment tank with a small tank on one side with fittings to work like a surge tank.

I thought about this myself, you could use your lift pump to fill up the smaller compartment, and the return to the larger portion of the tank tank could just be a small hole at the top, remarkably simple.

51608

[billjr212]

I'm working on detailing the interior and might need to pull out a rusting fuel tank? Really? BTW the fuel gauge is pretty much useless due to the tank design too.

I feel weird posting this in Boyd's thread, but here goes anyway.

I think the rusting may *partially* be a one-off issue given Craig's build timeline. I recently opened my tank up after a year on the road to replace the o-rings and there was no sign of rusting inside. Perhaps the extent of rusting is related to the fact that his car isn't on the road, meaning those walls haven't had any consistent film of fuel covering them from sloshing/emptying/refilling the tank.

Also, on the fuel guage, if you bend the arm a bit, it keeps the float from dragging on the front of the tank. The bend that is already in the arm actually makes it fairly accurate once you keep it from dragging.

All that said, if I ever had to pull the interior apart again, I would most likely go ahead and swap to a Boyd tank. I almost pulled the trigger this winter, but decided to give the new o-rings a chance instead. I would consider pulling it apart just to do the Boyd tank if they come out with a design that is full size instead of narrow. I have no need to push the firewall back and hesitate to give up a portion of the already limited fuel capacity.

[Mechie3]

Very possible My car won't get that much use normally either. I can only drive on days that are nice and where I don't have to drop off or pick up from daycare. Some weeks that is 2-3 days, other weeks that is 0 days.

Longisland, I like that idea. I was thinking AN fittings on the top, but the hole is 2 less fittings, 2 less hose ends, and 1 less hose to worry about leaking (or worse).

[billjr212]

Very possible My car won't get that much use normally either. I can only drive on days that are nice and where I don't have to drop off or pick up from daycare. Some weeks that is 2-3 days, other weeks that is 0 days.


Hope the tone of my response didn't come off wrong. I agree it is a ridiculous problem to have given there will be plenty of these cars that sit for months at a time. Just some of the responses seemed to be building a tide of fear that this must be happening to everyone. Just highlighting that my car sat nearly all winter with about a half tank (though I did get to drive it once or twice when we were treated to 40-50 degree days) and there was no sign of rust a few weeks ago when I opened it up and peaked inside.

I like Boyd's solution and I like that it puts pressure on FFR to improve its own offering, just thought I would offer up my own experience as another reference point.

[Mechie3]

Hope the tone of my response didn't come off wrong.


I like Boyd's solution and I like that it puts pressure on FFR to improve its own offering, just thought I would offer up my own experience as another reference point.

Not at all.


I think people who have had cars sitting for a while should certainly take a peek and those currently building should weigh alternatives such as coating the inside or (as mentioned previously) seeing if you can get a savings from FFR for not using their tank that can be spent on a tank from boyd. Say the tank costs FFR (making up numbers) $100 and they sell it for an effective price of $200, they can give a $150 credit. They still make money (more profit actually, assuming they didn't stockpile tanks) and the end user can save on an alternative solution.

[JAubin]

Mechie/Longisland I really like that idea...I have a surge tank on my long-term wish list, and since those aren't cheap anyway if Boyd comes back with a reasonable price I'd certainly consider swapping the whole thing. My car will be sitting without moving all winter typically...so I either need to pull the tank and coat the entire inside of it, or get a new tank I'm thinking....

[longislandwrx]

Longisland, I like that idea. I was thinking AN fittings on the top, but the hole is 2 less fittings, 2 less hose ends, and 1 less hose to worry about leaking (or worse).


yeah sorry for the crude sketch, but you get the idea, bottom connection for the lift pump would just be a hose barb welded to the baffle, it wouldn't see pressure so it should never come off.

if boyd could do something like this in a 13 gallon capacity, minus a gallon or so for the surge tank I think people would be all over it.



Mechie/Longisland I really like that idea...I have a surge tank on my long-term wish list, and since those aren't cheap anyway if Boyd comes back with a reasonable price I'd certainly consider swapping the whole thing. My car will be sitting without moving all winter typically...so I either need to pull the tank and coat the entire inside of it, or get a new tank I'm thinking....


agreed, the radium tank I've been ogling isn't cheap.

[FFRSpec72]

Get a real fuel cell and be done with this talk !

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Get a real fuel cell and be done with this talk !
Tony,
What was the final installed price of your custom fuel cell?
Bob

[FFRSpec72]

Tony,
What was the final installed price of your custom fuel cell?
Bob

A little over the price of a set of Hoosier R series tires, $1700, 2 pumps 12 gals

[Mechie3]

I can do $500. $1700 is a bit much for me at this point.

[flynntuna]

Before you install your new tank, put in some baffle or some other way of managing fuel when less than 1/3 tank. I was very surprised to run out of fuel on an easy 90 degree right hand turn.
To drive hard I have to carry no less than 5 gallons, which is a lot on a 10 gallon tank.


Or you could use Holly's HydraMat.

https://holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/s

[FFR-ADV]

Question for those that did the Boyd tank swap with the original firewall what degree did you have to bend the firewall to to get the extra few inches of clearance. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I left the original shelf in the same place and was able to re-bend it to 13 degrees with the kind help of some generous friends with a large sheet metal brake. The Boyd tank is very nice. Sorry for your gas tank woes Mechie3.

[Loring]

I thought about this myself, you could use your lift pump to fill up the smaller compartment, and the return to the larger portion of the tank tank could just be a small hole at the top, remarkably simple.

51608

That's how OEM fuel pump assemblies do it, effectively. The entire 'basket' that houses the pump has a check valve in the bottom for the pump to pull from. The return line fills the basket, or in the case of a returnless setup, the regulator is in the basket, which effectively keeps it full (and overflowing, really) at any time. As an aside, I don't have the front dimensions yet, but I was looking around at fuel tank suppliers and found something that might fit.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.ineedparts.com/heavy-duty-polyethylene-gas-tank-for-jeep-3829.html

[FFRSpec72]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

[RM1SepEx]

I feel weird posting this in Boyd's thread, but here goes anyway.

I think the rusting may *partially* be a one-off issue given Craig's build timeline. I recently opened my tank up after a year on the road to replace the o-rings and there was no sign of rusting inside. Perhaps the extent of rusting is related to the fact that his car isn't on the road, meaning those walls haven't had any consistent film of fuel covering them from sloshing/emptying/refilling the tank.

Also, on the fuel guage, if you bend the arm a bit, it keeps the float from dragging on the front of the tank. The bend that is already in the arm actually makes it fairly accurate once you keep it from dragging.

All that said, if I ever had to pull the interior apart again, I would most likely go ahead and swap to a Boyd tank. I almost pulled the trigger this winter, but decided to give the new o-rings a chance instead. I would consider pulling it apart just to do the Boyd tank if they come out with a design that is full size instead of narrow. I have no need to push the firewall back and hesitate to give up a portion of the already limited fuel capacity.

Bill, the float is mounted in a section of the tank that is about 1/2 as tall as the center portion of the tank, it has no physical way of indicating a level above that upper surface.... how can it be reasonably accurate? I'm guessing there is 3-4 gallons of capacity above that level

[billjr212]

Bill, the float is mounted in a section of the tank that is about 1/2 as tall as the center portion of the tank, it has no physical way of indicating a level above that upper surface.... how can it be reasonably accurate? I'm guessing there is 3-4 gallons of capacity above that level

There is a 90 degree bend in the float arm that is lined up with the step up in the tank. This allows the float to go (at least partially) up into the upper area of the tank to read full. I'm guessing it probably still leaves 1-2 gallons of space past "full" but so do some production cars, so I'm not going to knock them for that. It's more important for it to be accurate at or near empty anyway.

[matteo92065]

Or you could use Holly's HydraMat.

https://holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/s
Thanks for the possible solution.
The video on their web site was very impressive.
$200 gets the HydraMat.(PART# 16-102 is best?)
Then cut the stock Boyd pick up off, adapt to the 3/8NPT HydraMat.

Has anyone done this? Any experience out there?

[Mechie3]

I've seen the hydramat in person in a demo tank. It was floating 1/2 on top of water and still pumping. Don't know the limits of it though and how that corresponds to how much fuel you still need.

[RM1SepEx]

Fingers crossed, pulling the firewall off to look for rust... wish me luck

[AZPete]

Okay, I wish you luck on the tank, Dan, and that Spring comes soon! :o

[Loring]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

I just drew up something roughly that will work, and be adaptable to just about any fuel tank. Once I get my 818 (should be here Monday at the latest), I'll get some final measurements and get a prototype going.

Do we have anyone on the board that does injection molding?

[FFRSpec72]

I just drew up something roughly that will work, and be adaptable to just about any fuel tank. Once I get my 818 (should be here Monday at the latest), I'll get some final measurements and get a prototype going.

Do we have anyone on the board that does injection molding?

There are a number of these out there for around $200 http://www.polyperformance.com/Fuel-Safe-Surge-Tank-Collector

[RM1SepEx]

Okay, I wish you luck on the tank, Dan, and that Spring comes soon! :o

No rust in the tank! :o Forecast is for a multiple inch noreaster Sunday PM, Spring isn't here yet although I've taken 3 Miatas and 3 motorcycles out of storage

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

Hi Tony
Don (DMC7492) built a surge tank using the jet pump.
wrx 08+ uses this assembly:

51659

I believe it does the surge tank feature.
Bob

[DMC7492]

Yes I have a cup in my tank, I tryed to have a check valve in the bottom. First was a stainless ball about 3/16" but it weighed too much. To get fuel in the cup I had over 2.5 inches in the tank that's about 2.5 gallons. Then I tryed a Vito's ball. It wanted to float and not seal the cup. I settled for a 1/8" hole in the bottom. With the SARDS jet pump. It takes fuel from outside of the cup and dumps into the cup,along with the return fuel from the pump. In about thirty seconds the cup which is nine inches tall is full totally submerging the pump even when the tank has 1 inch of fuel. The gas gauge warning light is on.
I have ran it but not on the street or track yet. That's next month in cart form!
51670
51671

[Loring]

There are a number of these out there for around $200 http://www.polyperformance.com/Fuel-Safe-Surge-Tank-Collector

Thanks for posting that. My design is slightly smaller than the ID of the fuel pump opening, so you should be able to drop it in.

As far as a check valve goes, use a flapper for lower profile. You should be able to get fill at less than 1/4". You can add a jet pickup directly below the pump opening for extra fill action if needed. For pumps with a level sender, its easy to make provisions for it externally.

[Mechie3]

How does the stealth pump attach to the Boyd tank? Welded flange on the tank with screws inserted top down into the tank? The 340 kits are about $350 while pumps alone are $115. I'd rather make my own block.

[flynntuna]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.

[nkw8181]

I ended up putting in a radium surge tank over a custom tank with foam that had to be replaced every what.. 5 years.

[GoDadGo]

Please consider building a tank that would fit the MK-Series, FIA and Type 65 that would hold additional fuel.

There is enough room in the rear of these cars so that tank could be constructed to yield a larger capacity over the Mustang piece. In additino, the tank could be designed where it increases the rear crush zone all while making the rear quick jacks and/or bumper bolts a snap to install.

Shown below are just a few reasons to construct such a piece:

1. It would extend our cruising range.
2. If properly designed, would give us additional room between the tank ant the tail end of the frame.
3. The tank, if baffled would reduce fuel sloshing so handling would be improved in addition to the added strength of the tank.
4. It could be designed to fit in the exact location and stock mounting tabs so retrofitting would be an easy weekend job.
5. The fun factor is looking cool, especially if different color powder coatings were offered.

Heck, maybe Factory Five might consider building such a piece or contracting your company to supply them.
Just some food for thought from the Peanut Gallery!

[David Hodgkins]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

[David Hodgkins]

Please consider building a tank that would fit the MK-Series, FIA and Type 65 that would hold additional fuel.

There is enough room in the rear of these cars so that tank could be constructed to yield a larger capacity over the Mustang piece. In additino, the tank could be designed where it increases the rear crush zone all while making the rear quick jacks and/or bumper bolts a snap to install.

Shown below are just a few reasons to construct such a piece:

1. It would extend our cruising range.
2. If properly designed, would give us additional room between the tank ant the tail end of the frame.
3. The tank, if baffled would reduce fuel sloshing so handling would be improved in addition to the added strength of the tank.
4. It could be designed to fit in the exact location and stock mounting tabs so retrofitting would be an easy weekend job.
5. The fun factor is looking cool, especially if different color powder coatings were offered.

Heck, maybe Factory Five might consider building such a piece or contracting your company to supply them.
Just some food for thought from the Peanut Gallery!

I remember some time back folks talking about another Ford tank that is 20 gallons instead of 16. I think it's either the Lincoln Town Car, Crown Victoria or Mark VIII. It doesn't kick down like the mustang tank, and has the same depth all the way across...

:)

[Mechie3]

I think someone got lost in the 818 section. ;)

I got an email back from Boyd. They said they will not build a tank within a tank. Here's the email:

"As for the Swirl pot we will not built [sic] a tank with another tank inside it unless they are both independent of each other and could be removed. In other words, if you designed a notch into your larger tank and a smaller tank fit in that pocket that would not be a problem."

I'm not sure what is meant by designing a notch and then the issue of being able to seal a hole in the top of the tank big enough to put a swirl pot into. He just wrote back saying "Sumps are not a big deal fabrication speaking they were just never part of the designs." I wrote back asking if he was referring to modifying existing tanks vs making a new design from scratch.

I came up with two designs yesterday. Both might only work with the original style firewall. The smaller one (rectangle) is about 14 gallons, the larger one (angled front) is about 17 gallons.

http://i.imgur.com/DENydM1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ph1zvQB.jpg

[Mechie3]

Boyds wrote back. He was thinking my sump comment was in regards to adding one to the 818 tank, not to a brand new tank design.

[longislandwrx]

he may not be following what you mean, maybe some cad drawings will get you on the same page.

by notch, I am thinking he means create a void in the outside of the tank that another tank fits into, 100% independent.

I cant imagine it would be hard to do what we suggested, but then again, I am not a welder.



edit/ oh that makes sense.

[Mechie3]

I've got all my dimensions on a paper. Just need to model it and send drawings.

[GoDadGo]

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

Good Information To Know! Thanks!

[Mechie3]

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

What does that mean as far as discussing Boyd parts as per forum rules?

[David Hodgkins]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.


No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.


What does that mean as far as discussing Boyd parts as per forum rules?

That's a good question. I think the first thing I need to do is have a chat with the folks at Boyd before I make any statements about how to move forward. I think the conversation needs to be had about how to handle references to former vendors, but that may be a discussion best had in the abstract, as opposed to this particular instance, at this time.

Let me reach out to them and see if there is any chance at reinstatement before I talk about their particular case.

[Mechie3]

I sent my drawing to Boyd but need to make a couple changes. I can take a pic later. Essentially it's a rectangular tank with a separate section on one end for an in tank surge tank. I'm wondering what (if anything) I should do for the lift pump. Put a small baffle around it with holes to let fuel in/out slowly? Would this risk starving it as fuel couldn't get in fast enough (and if it could get in fast enough, it would get out fast too)?

Ideally something with the fuel trap doors or a little box with check vales in it but that gets expensive quick.

[C.Plavan]

I sent my drawing to Boyd but need to make a couple changes. I can take a pic later. Essentially it's a rectangular tank with a separate section on one end for an in tank surge tank. I'm wondering what (if anything) I should do for the lift pump. Put a small baffle around it with holes to let fuel in/out slowly? Would this risk starving it as fuel couldn't get in fast enough (and if it could get in fast enough, it would get out fast too)?

Ideally something with the fuel trap doors or a little box with check vales in it but that gets expensive quick.

http://pyrotectstore.com/product/collector-tanks/

[Mechie3]

I think I just need the check valves. I found them cheaper here:

http://fuelsafe.com/store/fuel-delivery-venting/vent-check-valves/check-valves/cv100.html

Needed the word "collector tank" to add to my search, so thanks for the link. I'll just have the box itself built into the bottom of the tank.

[Loring]

Mechie, the rubber flap style are a couple bucks a piece. :)

[Mechie3]

I did some searching last night. It looks like the rubber style ones are meant to be replaced yearly and are intended more as a rollover valve for large ports on a fuel cell, not as check valves. They require either a spring loaded mechanism behind it or the weight of the fuel on top of it (if you're upside down) to seal.

I'm thinking now of two options which are shown in glorious MS Paint:

First photo: How my tank design looks today. Rectangle tank, baffle sealing off all but top 1/2" on left (passenger) side for a surge tank. Return is via the top 1/2" being unsealed/welded (yellow). It allows for a max depth of 7" of fuel but you'll lose some to slosh on right hand turns. Still more than enough. pump in main area (red) feeds surge (orange), pump in surge area (red) feeds engine (purple) return from engine is into surge (dark blue).

Pros: simple, least cost
Cons: Potential to starve main pump with low fuel levels. The holley hydromat could be added ($200+) but I've heard they can't be cleaned so if it's ever clogged....bye bye $200.

Second: Build in two baffles (blue) on either side of the main pump pickup and add check valves (green). This is similar to the collector tanks you can buy but, for $200 it's probably cheaper to weld in two baffles in a tank and install two check valves myself. The baffles could even be arranged in a V to funnel gas from the left or right into the check valve. The rest of the operation is the same as teh first photo.

Pro: Near max fuel capacity, less change of starving main pump
Cons: Highest cost (due to check valves)

Third: Build in a ramp (blue). The lowest part becomes a built in sump. Normally this would be the lowest spot but I don't want a sump under the car so to make it the "lowest" the ramp must be raised up.

Pros: Fuel collector action without expensive check valves
Cons: Lowest fuel capacity (how much is lost? Not sure yet)

Thoughts?

http://i.imgur.com/XMoDYYs.png

[Mechie3]

A fourth option would be the third image with no surge tank on the side. Just use the build in fuel collector as a sort of surge tank. not as good as full blown surge, and you'd lose volume, but good enough?

[flynntuna]

Instead of welding in ramps in the tank in the third example, just weld the tank as a trapezoid (flip the example over )and weld a leg to it to help support it. Just thinking out loud:rolleyes:

[FFRSpec72]

I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

[longislandwrx]

I think option 1 is perfect, both in simplicity and performance the capacity of the "surge tank" will be enough to prevent starvation at all but the lowest fuel levels. If you need to get every last drop, agreed, get a hydromat.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Craig,
I like idea #1, but why use a second pump. Use the free jet pump like stock Subaru.

52178

[Mechie3]

Instead of welding in ramps in the tank in the third example, just weld the tank as a trapezoid (flip the example over )and weld a leg to it to help support it. Just thinking out loud:rolleyes:

That would be the intent. It wouldn't have a bottom, just the sides so the whole front acts as a leg. No point in adding extra cost with hard to weld edges.




I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

Good to know, thanks.


I think option 1 is perfect, both in simplicity and performance the capacity of the "surge tank" will be enough to prevent starvation at all but the lowest fuel levels. If you need to get every last drop, agreed, get a hydromat.

I'm kind of leaning back to this route. Maybe I'll add in the little baffles with the 1" holes but not put in the check valves. If I end up needing them later I can add them later.

[STiPWRD]

I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

Tony, are you worried about the increased current draw of the Aeromotive pump on the stock fuel controller? This is one thing I was going to go back and double check the wire gauge. I'm running the Aeromotove 340 that came with the Boyd tank, which can draw as much as 16-17 amps, while the stock controller was designed to operate a stock pump, which only draws 8-9 amps. I got my data from these sites:

http://realstreetperformance.com/Fuel-Pump-Comparison-Test.html

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1405-fuel-pump-shootout-part-2/

The car drives fine but I haven't really pushed it to the point where I'm maxing out the pump and drawing the highest current. I'm just concerned the stock wires are under sized and that the controller internals may also be under designed.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, are you worried about the increased current draw of the Aeromotive pump on the stock fuel controller?

Yes as the pumps I have can draw up to 15-18 amps and the controller can handle 20 amps so I was getting failures and had to install a second controller and folks with even single high performance pumps may have amp draw issues

[longislandwrx]

I'm kind of leaning back to this route. Maybe I'll add in the little baffles with the 1" holes but not put in the check valves. If I end up needing them later I can add them later.

smart.


Yes as the pumps I have can draw up to 15-18 amps and the controller can handle 20 amps so I was getting failures and had to install a second controller and folks with even single high performance pumps may have amp draw issues

what's your fuel setup? I would think at next to no pressure the draw on the lift pump wouldn't be that high.


Craig,
I like idea #1, but why use a second pump. Use the free jet pump like stock Subaru.

52178

I don't have one of these at my disposal, however a DW200 for the lift pump and install kit is less than $100

[Mechie3]

I totally missed Bob's post.

That could be an option, but I don't have an OEM assembly anymore. I would wonder what would happen if the pump is in the surge and the return is clogged and it goes to relief, do you lose all jet function and thus all in pumping action? The boyd pump assemblies are a little expensive, but I have the ability to machine my own top caps and such so I can buy the $100 pump vs the $350 kit with top.

[FFRSpec72]

what's your fuel setup? I would think at next to no pressure the draw on the lift pump wouldn't be that high.


Fuel cell with 2 aeromatic 320 pumps, variable fuel pressure regulator, the pumps were not working as the draw on power up was like 16 amps each once I went to 2 controllers everything was fine

[Wayne Presley]

The lift pump can be a low pressure pump just big enough to keep the surge tank full and could be at 80% capacity of the motor's needs since there is no way the motor could stay at full fuel demand for more than 15 seconds unless you're at Bonneville..

[longislandwrx]

The lift pump can be a low pressure pump just big enough to keep the surge tank full and could be at 80% capacity of the motor's needs since there is no way the motor could stay at full fuel demand for more than 15 seconds unless you're at Bonneville..

I saw k&n had a low pressure pump, for about $50
http://www.amazon.com/K-N-81-0403-Fuel-Pump/dp/B00OXZD2OY

not sure if it's enough flow.

[Loring]

I did some searching last night. It looks like the rubber style ones are meant to be replaced yearly and are intended more as a rollover valve for large ports on a fuel cell, not as check valves.

Wrong ones. The ones I'm referring to are the ones used in OEM fuel collectors. They run well for years. I'll try and find an example already in production and available.

As far as the second fuel pump goes, I'd run if off of a relay with the coil connected to a WOT or boost switch. No speed controller needed.

[Loring]

I just looked into it, apparently they're a variant of the old quadrajet accelerator pump check valves. You can find them by searching for 'umbrella check valve'.

[DMC7492]

The jet pump has ZERO moving parts it is a venturi action and is proven on all the Subaru's, here how it works.
When you replace your factory fuel pump to large capacity type.

The factory Jet pump will be insufficient and the flow will become blocked.This will lead to failure of the regulator or the vehicle will loose performance causing fuel pressure to rise. By replacing your factory Jet pump to the Sard Jet Pump Killer, the vehicle will have a steady flow of fuel.

Jet Pump Fuction.
The Saddle Type Fuel Tank has two Rooms which is divided into 2. A and B as show on the diagram. This Type of tank is mainly used is rear wheel and 4WD vehciles. When the fuel starts to decrease, it will remain in the B department of the tank. The Jet pump uses the flow rate of the returning fuel from the engine and due to the Venturi effect, pumps the fuel from the tank B and transfers is to Tank A

52500

[nkw8181]

The lift pump can be a low pressure pump just big enough to keep the surge tank full and could be at 80% capacity of the motor's needs since there is no way the motor could stay at full fuel demand for more than 15 seconds unless you're at Bonneville..

So my question is do I need to worry about having two 320 pumps wired in the stock system? The Boyd tank pump shouldn't have any resistance since it is filling a surge tank with a return so no real pressure.

Second question. When my tank is full (could see the gas in the fill tube) the Guage only reads 3/4. After using 5 gallons it reads 1/4 of a tank. How do I get my fuel level to read propperly?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Second question. When my tank is full (could see the gas in the fill tube) the Guage only reads 3/4. After using 5 gallons it reads 1/4 of a tank. How do I get my fuel level to read propperly?

To get the gauge to read properly. Bending, lengthening or shortening the float arm should work.

Bob

[Mechie3]

Got a quote this morning. $375 for the tank. Going to make my own pump mounts (and figure out what pumps I need). That's a 14 gallon tank with a built in surge/swirl tank on the side plus baffles in the middle with a single 1" hole in each baffle that can have check valves added to create a collector tank.

[Frank818]

375?? That is so cheap for a perfect semi-big tank! Lucky you. :)

[07FIREBLADE]

Ok now how much is this going to cost to get through zdm? Thats the real question here.

[longislandwrx]

That's not bad at all! I am going to hold off finishing my brake lines because I think my tank is coming out.

is it taller than the FFR tank?

[Mechie3]

Ok now how much is this going to cost to get through zdm? Thats the real question here.

Nothing? lol. I'll make a copy of page one of my drawing and post it up. You should be able to order from Boyd directly. Page two of the print shows some dimensions for bolt mounting patterns that Boyd gave me, but might be proprietary, so I won't share that part.This isn't something that is really in my wheelhouse and I'm not sure I could produce them for much (or any less) after I pay someone else to do the welding. The only area I could provide something is fuel pump mounts.

As designed, the tank needs two of the Boyd 41001 EFI pumps which cost $349 each. The Aeromotive 340 pumps themselves are only about $120 each so I plan to make my own top plates/install kit. His install kit essentially costs $229. Depending on how much interest there is I could offer these if pricing is any better. Tank also has two 1/2" NPT fittings welded to the top. One is used with the FFR provided rollover valve, the other will be used for my filling vent.

As quoted, complete, the tank was $375, sending unit was $48 (I bought this), and pump kits were $698 (for 2), total of $1,121. As mentioned above, I skipped the install kit so my cost will be $375 + $48 + $240 (2 pumps) + my own time to make install kit, total of $663. The regular Boyd 818 tank is $573 with a sending unit and pump.



That's not bad at all! I am going to hold off finishing my brake lines because I think my tank is coming out.

is it taller than the FFR tank?

It is the same height as the original FFR tank and same front/back depth as the top. The original tank angles out at the front. I got rid of that. This tank will not work with the new firewall.

[FFRSpec72]

Nothing? lol. I'll make a copy of page one of my drawing and post it up. You should be able to order from Boyd directly. Page two of the print shows some dimensions for bolt mounting patterns that Boyd gave me, but might be proprietary, so I won't share that part.This isn't something that is really in my wheelhouse and I'm not sure I could produce them for much (or any less) after I pay someone else to do the welding. The only area I could provide something is fuel pump mounts.

As designed, the tank needs two of the Boyd 41001 EFI pumps which cost $349 each. The Aeromotive 340 pumps themselves are only about $120 each so I plan to make my own top plates/install kit. His install kit essentially costs $229. Depending on how much interest there is I could offer these if pricing is any better. Tank also has two 1/2" NPT fittings welded to the top. One is used with the FFR provided rollover valve, the other will be used for my filling vent.

As quoted, complete, the tank was $375, sending unit was $48 (I bought this), and pump kits were $698 (for 2), total of $1,121. As mentioned above, I skipped the install kit so my cost will be $375 + $48 + $240 (2 pumps) + my own time to make install kit, total of $663. The regular Boyd 818 tank is $573 with a sending unit and pump.




It is the same height as the original FFR tank and same front/back depth as the top. The original tank angles out at the front. I got rid of that. This tank will not work with the new firewall.

WOW, the full price is quite high for a non rated fuel cell

[Mechie3]

Indeed it is. If I didn't have the ability to make my own EFI mounts and had to buy them I would not have gone this route. As is, I'm coming in $460 under everyone else's price. It still ends up being cheaper than buying a radium surge tank for $600 (without pumps) in conjunction with whatever tank you get.

[Frank818]

2 fuel pumps? Why?

But in the end if my FFR tank leaks and I can't fix it properly, this Boyd tank will have all the holes (vents, filler, etc.), no leaks, 1gal more and a try reading level sender. It's all about FFR's tank leaking, now (for me).

[Mechie3]

It has a built in surge tank. One pump feeds the surge tank, the other pump feeds the engine. The surge tank is a smaller footprint so 1 gallon of gas gives a much higher fuel level than it would in the large tank. If the large tank pump starves because you're in a corner the surge tank pump is still completely covered and has a full gallon+ reserve to keep you going until the main pump picks pack up.

http://www.nukeperformance.com/technical-info/flow-chart-faq/

Like this, but only 1 pump in the surge tank and the tank is built into the main tank.

http://www.nukeperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swirlpotinternal1.jpg

[David Hodgkins]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.


No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.


What does that mean as far as discussing Boyd parts as per forum rules?


That's a good question. I think the first thing I need to do is have a chat with the folks at Boyd before I make any statements about how to move forward. I think the conversation needs to be had about how to handle references to former vendors, but that may be a discussion best had in the abstract, as opposed to this particular instance, at this time.

Let me reach out to them and see if there is any chance at reinstatement before I talk about their particular case.

Guys I want to chime in with an update on Boyd Welding. Their issue with vendor status was the result of an accounting snafu on our part, and not due to any failings on the part of Boyd Welding.

I'm currently working on reinstating their banner to the top of the site where it belongs.

:)

[flynntuna]

Good to hear, though I would hope it was a "rare" mistake rather than being a situation normal all f..... Up. :rolleyes:

[TouchStone]

The original tank angles out at the front. I got rid of that.

I ran brake lines and hoses through the back corners where there was a cutout in the FFR tank. Is this what you got rid of?

[Mechie3]

I got rid of two things.

1: The front of the tank is angled from top to bottom where the top is narrower (front to back) than the bottom. I got rid of this and made it a flat front tank.

2:The sides had some cutouts where the tank was 1/2 the height. I saw no real reason for this in this application.

There was a bit of a back angle on both sides of the tank where the back of the tank was narrower than the front. I got rid of this on the passenger side and the driver side. For the driver side, the tank is ~2" or so from the frame so that anyone who ran lines through there wouldn't have to change if they wanted the same design.

[TouchStone]

I got rid of two things.

1: The front of the tank is angled from top to bottom where the top is narrower (front to back) than the bottom. I got rid of this and made it a flat front tank.



The front of the tank is angled to match the slope of the firewall.

[RM1SepEx]

yes but it was cheaper to make if it was thinner and vertical

[Mechie3]

Which is what I did. Adding in the angled part (starting from a thinner rectangle) added 3 gallons (so 17 instead of 14). 17 is a lot of weight. It would also make welding in the internal baffles a pain.

It's this minus the triangle front.
http://i.imgur.com/ph1zvQB.jpg


Here is a link to a modified version of the drawing. I removed the detail showing the bolt pattern for Boyd's EFI sending plate. Dave sent me a screenshot of the pattern but I didn't find it listed anywhere. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a secret or not so I'll err on the side of not telling others. If you bought the tank you could either buy his EFI setup, or make your own. It wouldn't be hard to make a pattern from the top of the tank (or using one of his gaskets available for ~$11).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nE-cTYLdhtM2JfZlVEeG9pRG8/view?usp=sharing

I posted more pics in my build thread I think, but I'll repost them here.

How I modified the filler:
http://i.imgur.com/lBhCdzA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sh308Qt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WtOhlRw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/VJdFlEY.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/9J62ytD.jpg

[Mechie3]

Here's the print:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7nE-cTYLdhtM2JfZlVEeG9pRG8/view?usp=sharing

A few notes (most are covered above):
This does not work with the new firewall
The 1" diameter holes should be 1" +.020-.000 (mine came in undersized and was annoying to fix)
If you don't want to use check valves just ask Boyd for their standard pump baffle
You will need two pump mounting under rings, two pumps, two pump mounting plates, and two gaskets
You will need to hardwire the pumps to the battery. Run a ground to both pumps and run a positive line to a relay and the output to the pumps. Trigger the relay with the two lines that originally fed the single pump.

Edit: I removed the dimensions for Boyd's EFI pattern on this version of the print. I don't know if it's anything proprietary. Boyd did share it with me, but sent me a screenshot not a publicly available print. He will recognize the EFI patterns and knows what to do.

[07FIREBLADE]

What's the price tag on this setup? Looks pricey but well worth it.

[Mechie3]

As quoted:
tank: $375
sending unit: $48
pump kits: $698 (for 2 A340 pumps),
Total: $1,121.

As mentioned above, I skipped the install kit so my cost was
$375 (tank)
$48 (sending unit)
$143 (2 wablro pumps)
$60 (material) + my own time to make install kit
Total of $626.

The regular Boyd 818 tank is $573 with a sending unit and pump.

You can always order just the underrings from Boyd and make your own top plates (just 1/4" plate with holes, cut to shape on a bandsaw).

[kcarlasc]

Has anyone had issue with the bulk head aluminum does not clear where the filler tube comes in? Just mocked mine up and the bulk head won’t sit flush on the floor because of it...

[wirenut]

Has anyone had issue with the bulk head aluminum does not clear where the filler tube comes in? Just mocked mine up and the bulk head won’t sit flush on the floor because of it...

Yep I have the same issue. I was planning on reworking the bulk head on the passenger side to push the seat back, so I guess I'm just adding the drivers side to the list.

I wish I would have known up front how little amount on the kit parts I would end up using.....

[mistasherm]

I wish I would have known up front how little amount on the kit parts I would end up using.....

wirenut - to quote my wife, "why are you buying so many parts? It's a KIT! Why didn't it come in the "kit?"

....and same issue on mine as well....

[kcarlasc]

I am going to add some bar stock underneath the bottom of the panel to raise it up.. I will just do both sides..

And as for the extra parts... just placed yet another order for the "kit" :-)


Yep I have the same issue. I was planning on reworking the bulk head on the passenger side to push the seat back, so I guess I'm just adding the drivers side to the list.

I wish I would have known up front how little amount on the kit parts I would end up using.....

[David Hodgkins]

Guys,

As of Jan. 1 2018 Boyd is no longer a vendor. I won't close the thread, but just be aware. Not sure how I'll handle future threads yet; probably will allow "support type" threads but discourage "check out my new Boyd tank" types of threads.

Losing a vendor really hurts as we only have a precious few.

[flynntuna]

Well that's a bummer, they had such a great Black Friday sale. Hope they reconsider.

[japollon]

Is there an aluminum tank available for the FFR Mk IV roadster?

[RM1SepEx]

Did anyone ever confirm if the Boyd 33 tank fits in the 818 with original firewall?

[iblackwe]

Reviving an old thread - how are people enjoying their Boyd tanks? Have there been any revisions since V1? Any revival in the interest to make a larger tank filling the entire space, rather than leaving a gap to the firewall or having to re-bend the firewall?

I have reached the point of fed up with my leaking original tank and just priced out the new one from FFR at nearly the same price as the Boyd tank. Before I plop down over $600 on the new Boyd tank though, I'd like to hear how it's working out for people.

Just wondering how you got your tank to seal? I tried some sealant but it still leaked, might try another O-ring and some JB waterweld next. If you have a tried and true method I would definitely like to know. Thanks

[philly15]

I used the ffr tank for the first couple years, and didn't have any issues other then not knowing my actual fuel level. I just took my pump and level to orilleys if I remember. And matched up gaskets till I found a thicker one that sealed. But I just installed the boyd tank yesterday due to a massive setup change, but am curious how the boyd tank is holding up with those who have run e85? Being an aluminum tank I'm leery, but looks like people have been doing it?

[Wayne Presley]

E85 is no issue for the tank or pump that comes with the Boyds tank

[philly15]

E85 is no issue for the tank or pump that comes with the Boyds tank

That's great news, I just thought about it during install this past weekend, figured I'd ask! Thanks!

[taco20]

I have been running E85 in my car for the past two years with the Boyd tank and have had no issues. I did install the Holley Hydramat in mine to help with fuel issues in corners at the track. Tank really needed some good baffles.

[philly15]

I have been running E85 in my car for the past two years with the Boyd tank and have had no issues. I did install the Holley Hydramat in mine to help with fuel issues in corners at the track. Tank really needed some good baffles.

I was thinking about getting a hydramat this winter and installing. Right now just trying to get the car running so I can make the last couple auto cross events this year. But question since you have the boyd tank, how did you run the tank vents? Looks like I ordered mine with the optional roll over valve, then there is the other threaded hole too.