Bob and Mike's 818Se Build Thread

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What a Great visit to FFR this morning. Today we picked our kits, Yes you can fit 2 kits on a 20ft trailer and in a full size van. Chassis #21 Bobs & Mikes #222070320704

We will be building both of these with high performance electric powertrains. Half way home right now.
If you bring home a kit on an open trailer, grab a stack of FFR postcards to hand out on the way home.
Oh, if you stop at a steak and lube for dinner, just spend the night.
Bob and Mike

[AZPete]

Congrats Bob & Mike! I'll watch carefully to see how you build an 818Se. Please keep showing us as you build it . . . er, them.
You should have seen my 818S waiting for Stewart to load it up for it's trip to AZ!
Pete

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Congrats Bob & Mike! I'll watch carefully to see how you build an 818Se. Please keep showing us as you build it . . . er, them.
You should have seen my 818S waiting for Stewart to load it up for it's trip to AZ!
Pete I saw Bstuke and freds. I thought you volunteered to delay so everyone else could move up. Bob

[Mechie3]

I didn't realize you were making two! Thats pretty cool.

[Frank818]

Congrats on the double pick-up!
Will be watching closely as well, as I am very very curious on how well an electric powertrain can work in the 818.

[Samiam1017]

Did you shrink wrap or did you let FFR know you were coming with a open trailer and they prepped for that?

[68GT500MAN]

Congratulations on the pick up, now on to the build!
Doug

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Did you shrink wrap or did you let FFR know you were coming with a open trailer and they prepped for that?
I was worried that the openings in the front edge of the doors would catch to much air at 70 mph. So I brought my own "wreck wrap" to close off that hole and hold everything together.
Bob

[Goldwing]

Congrats on the pickup. I'm starting to really consider the whole pick it up yourself experience. If I do, I will keep your drive home crowd control advice in mind, lol.

[Wayne Presley]

I know those guys with the Smurf wrapped cars.... Congrats Bob and Mike.
How many times did your daughter bring up stopping at the shop was going to interfere with her beach time :D

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I know those guys with the Smurf wrapped cars.... Congrats Bob and Mike.
How many times did your daughter bring up stopping at the shop was going to interfere with her beach time :D
Thanks Wayne, between stopping at your shop and at the corvette national museum. The girls will use that against me for years. I'm sure on our next vacation, they will make me stop at some outlet malls.

I took your advice on the windshields and packed them in the van.20722
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm going to be removing all the body panel today. What is recommended to remove the duct tape glue residue?
Thanks Bob20756

[Mechie3]

Mine just pulled off. In some areas it left a little bit of whitish reside that rubbed off by hand.

[Frank818]

If you can't by bare hand, worst case you can use car wax (those with carnuba are better to remove dirt, stains and stuff like that) or oil. Anything oily should remove that (WD-40, engine oil, sewing machine oil, etc.). Of course it's better to wash out the excess oil after that.

[VD2021]

I'm going to be removing all the body panel today. What is recommended to remove the duct tape glue residue?
Thanks Bob20756

Klean-Strip Prep-All Wax & Grease Remover. Just spray it on and let it soak for a few minutes. Then a gentle wipe with a microfiber removes it with ease.

It's designed for body panel prep so it will not leave contaminates.

[68GT500MAN]

We use a product called Goo-Gone to remove adhesive residue from many surfaces, it works great.
Doug

[wallace18]

3m adhesive remover works well also.

[mentatbashar]

Very cool. I look forward to seeing this build. I'm glad to see an electric build again! :cool:

[Bob_n_Cincy]

guess what day it is????

[Silvertop]

We use a product called Goo-Gone to remove adhesive residue from many surfaces, it works great.
Doug

Yes, I use Goo Gone too. Works really well, won't harm the finish.

[bstuke]

guess what day it is????8/18! The day they deliver my 818R!

[Frank818]

guess what day it is????

Hump day.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

8/18! The day they deliver my 818R!
Congrats on your delivery.
I rented a storage unit for the last 10 years. #818
It's Fate
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

20844
20845
We spent all day removing, cleaning and inspecting all the fiberglass.
Just for kicks we throw the donor seat in for a size check.
Mike is about 6'1" 250# and I'm 6'0" 290. (no fat *** jokes please, I'm workin on it)
We are definitely going to need some thinner seats and a wookie firewall.

20846
Check out the cool steering wheel.
Bob

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey Bob & Mike! This is gonna' be fun to watch :)

Jeff

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I stop buy Turn In Concepts tonight with my trailer in tow.

20863

http://turninconcepts.com/
They gave me lot of advice on suspension.
Then Greg and Tony started talking about engines. Throwing out part number and names of different turbos so fast my head was spinning. I think they wanted my cars.
They posted this picture on their facebook page. I think every Subaru enthusiast wants one of these.
Bob

[Mechie3]

I've found it varies. Locally, everyone on the forum seems to love the 818 build thread I have. On nasioc about 5 people have chimed in.

[bstuke]

everyone on the forum seems to love the 818 build thread I have.Be careful, that head will soon not fit through the door...:rolleyes:

[Bob_n_Cincy]

20878
Just another picture of my visit to Turn In Concepts. Tony and Greg really gave me an education on Subaru suspension and engines.

[Frank818]

Looks like a very beautiful day at the time of the pic. So nice.

Ohio.
But I can't find what they are specialists of, exactly?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Looks like a very beautiful day at the time of the pic. So nice.

Ohio.
But I can't find what they are specialists of, exactly?

Hi Frank,
They sell Subaru parts, build Subaru engine and cars, and Race them on weekends.
They are LTD (Living The Dream)
Check out this link: https://www.google.com/search?q=google+turninconcepts&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=A-4UUpHCJePSyAGp44DIAQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoATgU&biw=1440&bih=700#fp=8d6b980b7e86ad0a&newwindow=1&q=turninconcepts&tbm=isch

[Frank818]

Ok, so they got great knowledge on building engines. That's what I was wondering. tnx. :)

Nice pictures!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Ok, so they got great knowledge on building engines. That's what I was wondering. tnx. :)

Nice pictures!

As their name implies "TURN IN" suspension and handling is really their expertise.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I know the LCA fitment has been discussed on 3 or 4 other threads before. I don't think there was a conclusion how to fix it.
So here is my situation and questions.
20960
The arm is mounted in the outer holes as my donor was a wagon. After tightening the front bolt, the rear aluminum bushing natural position was closer to the inside holes. I had to cut the gusset to get the bushing between the 2 mounting plates.
20961
I pulled the bushing outward to align the top hole as shown above.
Should I pull it out more to align the bottom hole?
Should I split the difference?
Should I drill aluminum or steel to make the bolts go through?

Here is the picture of the left side.
20962
If I pull this side out another 1/4", the holes will be close horizontally. A 1/4" movement horizontally of the bracket moves the wheel 1/4" forward or backward in the well.
Can someone from FFR give me a couple of dimension from a frame ref point to the center on the lower ball joint stud So I can determine correct position.

[Mechie3]

Be careful, that head will soon not fit through the door...:rolleyes:

My bad. Lol. Meant everyone on my local Subaru forum seems to like it while the national forum (nasioc) seems to only have a small handful of people interested. They're all too busy browsing the hella flush gallery.

[bstuke]

My bad. Lol. Meant everyone on my local Subaru forum seems to like it while the national forum (nasioc) seems to only have a small handful of people interested. They're all too busy browsing the hella flush gallery.Poking fun... but agree with you.

[RM1SepEx]

Looks familiar... Check my thread and Mechies...
I found that I couldn't use the heavy metal washer on the inside of the LCA bushing and get them to align. Remove them and retorque, I think you will find that they align better.

Insert the front bolt through and rotate the arm forward to align the bolts. Check front to rear position with a straight edge (broom handle test) to make sure that both of the control arms position the arm at the same distance from the straight edge across the frame brackets. After you have done this you can determine where you may need to grind to adjust the holes. Can't tell from the photos, make sure the LCA bushing has the slight indent on the bottom of the bushing. I found that the arms were positioned the same using the frame's lower mount holes and I had to "adjust" the upper holes slightly... I adjusted the aluminum bushing on the right (side to side alignment issue) and the steel bracket of the left upper mount (front to back issue)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread/ see posts 95 & 124 photos

[Mechie3]

If the slot required was front to back I slotted steel. If it was side to side I slotted aluminum. I didn't think there was enough material to safely slot the aluminum front to back.

[wallace18]

While I was at FFR to pick up my 818S, Tony showed me the correct way for the LCA bushing to be installed. The flat part needs to go on top under the frame bracket. If you look the bushing has one flat side and one with a curve in it. I hope this helps. They said it may require some hogging out of the frame hole for one of the bolts.

20968

[Bob_n_Cincy]

While I was at FFR to pick up my 818S, Tony showed me the correct way for the LCA bushing to be installed. The flat part needs to go on top under the frame bracket. If you look the bushing has one flat side and one with a curve in it. I hope this helps. They said it may require some hogging out of the frame hole for one of the bolts.

20968
That is the way I have mine installed.
I just need to know where to put the arms before I start hogging out holes in the frame.
I email Tony Zullo for this information.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Looks familiar... Check my thread and Mechies...
I found that I couldn't use the heavy metal washer on the inside of the LCA bushing and get them to align. Remove them and retorque, I think you will find that they align better.

Insert the front bolt through and rotate the arm forward to align the bolts. Check front to rear position with a straight edge (broom handle test) to make sure that both of the control arms position the arm at the same distance from the straight edge across the frame brackets. After you have done this you can determine where you may need to grind to adjust the holes. Can't tell from the photos, make sure the LCA bushing has the slight indent on the bottom of the bushing. I found that the arms were positioned the same using the frame's lower mount holes and I had to "adjust" the upper holes slightly... I adjusted the aluminum bushing on the right (side to side alignment issue) and the steel bracket of the left upper mount (front to back issue)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread/ see posts 95 & 124 photos

Hi RM1SepEx
Thanks for your response.
I don't have any heavy metal washers on my LCA. Maybe the Aluminum ones are different.
The broom handle test will determine if the two wheels are straight across from each other. What if both side need to come forward a 1/2" to center the wheel in the wheel well?
Bob
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

I know the LCA fitment has been discussed on 3 or 4 other threads before. I don't think there was a conclusion how to fix it.
So here is my situation and questions.
20960
The arm is mounted in the outer holes as my donor was a wagon. After tightening the front bolt, the rear aluminum bushing natural position was closer to the inside holes. I had to cut the gusset to get the bushing between the 2 mounting plates.
20961
I pulled the bushing outward to align the top hole as shown above.
Should I pull it out more to align the bottom hole?
Should I split the difference?
Should I drill aluminum or steel to make the bolts go through?

Here is the picture of the left side.
20962
If I pull this side out another 1/4", the holes will be close horizontally. A 1/4" movement horizontally of the bracket moves the wheel 1/4" forward or backward in the well.
Can someone from FFR give me a couple of dimension from a frame ref point to the center on the lower ball joint stud So I can determine correct position.


yes you do have heavy washers on the lolipop LCA bushings...
look at you photo of the left (driver's side) control arm 20962

first you need to cut off the threads beyond the nut, they will hit the aluminum on that side

that bushing has, in order, nut, heavy washer, funky rubber washer, bushing, funky rubber washer, heavy metal washer, control arm.

If you don't use that washer it moves the control arm bushing forward a 1/16 or so. My arms required that washer to be removed or it just didn't fit in the forward LCA bracket... on both sides

I tried and never got a dimension from F5 re exactly where the ball joint should be... Everyone else that I communicated with was right around where my arms came out... I'm keeping my fingers crossed re body position. I can at least assure myself that they are in the same place side to side. I disagree as to the conclusion of how to fix it...

left, clip the vertical bracket a wee bit 1/4 should do it, I did about 1/2, twas too much. You may need to elongate the hole towards the rear a bit on the upper metal bracket, the lower bracket should work fine
right, you may need to elongate the aluminum lolipop's hole a wee bit, mine was between 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch. The lower should be fine. Some had to clip the vertical section of the upper bracket, again 1/4 or so to get them to fit.

Since you are using the front pivot as fixtured and the two lower rear lolipop holes, we all are placing our lower ball joints in the same place. there is some "slop" in the hioles and you can make them as even as possible when you verify their position relative to each other with a straight edge or broom stick

I'l measure my exact wheelbase soon and confirm. The rear suspension placement is non adjustable when you use the stock trailing arm.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

yes you do have heavy washers on the lolipop LCA bushings...
look at you photo of the left (driver's side) control arm 20962

first you need to cut off the threads beyond the nut, they will hit the aluminum on that side

that bushing has, in order, nut, heavy washer, funky rubber washer, bushing, funky rubber washer, heavy metal washer, control arm.

If you don't use that washer it moves the control arm bushing forward a 1/16 or so. My arms required that washer to be removed or it just didn't fit in the forward LCA bracket... on both sides

I tried and never got a dimension from F5 re exactly where the ball joint should be... Everyone else that I communicated with was right around where my arms came out... I'm keeping my fingers crossed re body position. I can at least assure myself that they are in the same place side to side. I disagree as to the conclusion of how to fix it...

left, clip the vertical bracket a wee bit 1/4 should do it, I did about 1/2, twas too much. You may need to elongate the hole towards the rear a bit on the upper metal bracket, the lower bracket should work fine
right, you may need to elongate the aluminum lolipop's hole a wee bit, mine was between 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch. The lower should be fine. Some had to clip the vertical section of the upper bracket, again 1/4 or so to get them to fit.

Since you are using the front pivot as fixtured and the two lower rear lolipop holes, we all are placing our lower ball joints in the same place. there is some "slop" in the hioles and you can make them as even as possible when you verify their position relative to each other with a straight edge or broom stick

I'l measure my exact wheelbase soon and confirm. The rear suspension placement is non adjustable when you use the stock trailing arm.

Hi Dan,
The front side washer you have on the alum LCA is a separate part. On the steel arm I will call it a non-removable welded on flange. I could grind it away. :eek:
Here is a couple more pictures:
20981
20982
20983

I didn't design this LCA, but I believe Subaru uses the metal washers (or flange) are to prevent longitudinal movement of the LCA. During heavy braking you could have 1000 lbs (this is a WAG) of rearward force on the LCA.

Let me know the result of your wheelbase measurements.
Thanks
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I fitted up all four corners of the suspension.
Every thing is only finger tight.
We should have a glider with brakes and steering by the end of the week.
I know where a big hill is.:cool:

21190

21193

21192
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

That washer/flange could make for some assembly issues since they used the aluminum arms for their prototypes and on every photo that I could find that shows the bushing no inner washer is present!

There is no way that my LCA and bushing could line up w/o much more grinding of the alignment holes if I used those washers with my LCAs

It looks like you are coming along. Do you plan on full assembly without painting the frame then disassembly, paint, reassemble?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That washer/flange could make for some assembly issues since they used the aluminum arms for their prototypes and on every photo that I could find that shows the bushing no inner washer is present!

There is no way that my LCA and bushing could line up w/o much more grinding of the alignment holes if I used those washers with my LCAs

It looks like you are coming along. Do you plan on full assembly without painting the frame then disassembly, paint, reassemble?

21201

Hi Dan
I'm cutting steel today per the attached picture. The top hole about 1/4" in the 11 o'clock direction. The bottom hole 1/4" in the 10 o'clock direction. Then the opposite of that on the other side.
After the go kart stage, I will disassembly, powder, reassemble.
Thanks Bob.

[RM1SepEx]

we were all able to get a bolt into the hole on the left and just modify the one on the right on that left LCA bushing. I found that if I modified my inside hole I messed up my LCA location fore and aft... you want to get it even side to side

[longislandwrx]

21201



That weld looks pretty rugged. maybe it's just the picture.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That weld looks pretty rugged. maybe it's just the picture.

21208

Here is a better picture of a typical welds. looks good to me, but I'm not qualified.
Bob

[longislandwrx]

Yeah the welds I saw at the open house were all top notch, had to be just that picture.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Help
I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
Any Ideas?

Next issue (maybe related)
My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
A 2.5 inch difference.
Any Ideas?
See pictures below.
21296

21297

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Help
I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
Any Ideas?

Next issue (maybe related)
My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
A 2.5 inch difference.
Any Ideas?
See pictures below.
21296

21297

To help me solve this problem. Can someone measure the distance between lower ball studs at normal ride height?
Thanks
Bob

[Mechie3]

The distance on my steering rack is 56" with the hubs pointed straight, aluminum arms mounted on the inner holes.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

21474

[Silvertop]

21474

Gotta love that! That's the story of my life!:D

[Bob_n_Cincy]

On the rear suspension, does anyone have the lengths of the upper and lower lateral links. I now have adjustables in both places.
Thanks Bob
21628
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21628&d=1378604642

[Frank818]

It doesn't come adjustable by default?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It doesn't come adjustable by default?
The lower lateral links are OEM fixed length. The top lateral link is with the kit and is adjustable.

[Mechie3]

I think I posted measurements of the lateral link (oem) in RM1's thread. I think you'd set the lower one where you want/need it, then use the top to set the camber.

[RM1SepEx]

lower links 16.5 inches center to center IIRC

[freds]

The lower lateral links are OEM fixed length. The top lateral link is with the kit and is adjustable.

FFR have sent me two new adjustable rear lower links. They say:

"The Rear Toe adjustment range (from the cam bolt...not stated) does not allow for enough range to get the proper spec (too much toe in). Adjustable toe links are included to allow the car to be aligned without having to grind or modify the bracket."

Nice looking links, especially compared to the OEM steel ones.

2162921630

[RM1SepEx]

what is your chassis # I got those a while back (and noted in my build thread) My chassis is # 17

[freds]

what is your chassis # I got those a while back (and noted in my build thread) My chassis is # 17

Mine is # 18. I also got "a package" which included them but have only just got to "the details". From the last few posts on this thread, it seemed that this was not widely known.

fred

[RM1SepEx]

Help
I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
Any Ideas?

Next issue (maybe related)
My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
A 2.5 inch difference.
Any Ideas?
See pictures below.
21296

21297

your wagon was 2 inches narrower... I'm guessing that you need longer tie rod ends.. If we have the same rack and your arms are 1 inch shorter (you had to use the alternate mounts) it makes sense... detailed photo of your tie rod ends with lengths and we canb compare to my WRX parts! It could also be that the rods from the rack to the tie rod are longer, if that is the case I have an extra set around here somewhere!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

FFR have sent me two new adjustable rear lower links. They say:

"The Rear Toe adjustment range (from the cam bolt...not stated) does not allow for enough range to get the proper spec (too much toe in). Adjustable toe links are included to allow the car to be aligned without having to grind or modify the bracket."

Nice looking links, especially compared to the OEM steel ones.

2162921630

The one per side adjustable lower link is only for early chassis where there wasn't enough toe adjustment. FFR is/has fixed this.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

your wagon was 2 inches narrower... I'm guessing that you need longer tie rod ends.. If we have the same rack and your arms are 1 inch shorter (you had to use the alternate mounts) it makes sense... detailed photo of your tie rod ends with lengths and we canb compare to my WRX parts! It could also be that the rods from the rack to the tie rod are longer, if that is the case I have an extra set around here somewhere!

Thanks Dan
I have gone through a learning experience with the wagon donor.
The wagon is only 20mm narrower than the sedan. The steering rack (center section) is shorter. I used the alternate holes.
Jim and I worked on this problem and he has a solution for the front.
I have moved on to the rear suspension.
Bob
chassis #21 bob's #22 mikes
21640

[wleehendrick]

Thanks Dan
I have gone through a learning experience with the wagon donor.
The wagon is only 20mm narrower than the sedan. The steering rack (center section) is shorter. I used the alternate holes.
Jim and I worked on this problem and he has a solution for the front.

Hi Bob, do you know what the solution to the shorter rack is (I would assume a longer set of tie rods or ends would be the easiest)? I ask because my donor is also a wagon and my completion date is coming up (Oct 12). I hope that the solution is already incorporated in my kit, however, my order configuration (80513, 2006-2007 Turbo) doesn't differentiate between sedan and wagon, so I guess I'll have to request the fix.

Thanks,

Lee

[Silvertop]

Hi Bob, do you know what the solution to the shorter rack is (I would assume a longer set of tie rods or ends would be the easiest)? I ask because my donor is also a wagon and my completion date is coming up (Oct 12). I hope that the solution is already incorporated in my kit, however, my order configuration (80513, 2006-2007 Turbo) doesn't differentiate between sedan and wagon, so I guess I'll have to request the fix.

Thanks,

Lee

I will be interested in that too. My donor is also a wagon (Outback Sport).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Doing some seating position testing.
Mike and I are big guys. Mike is 6ft 250# with a curved back.
21659

I am 6ft and 280#
21660


Car looks very wide in this head on picture
21661

In this test I have a 1.5" block of wood under the steering column mount. The built in tilt is also all the way down.

This test seat can be dropped down another 1.5". I'll try that today.

[wallace18]

I am going to have to lower my column as well. Not sure why FFR mounts it so high. Maybe so it works with stock seats.

[C.Plavan]

Sorry if I missed it, but why no powder coat or paint?

[Mechie3]

I think the wheel is high so you can get in the car. With my bimarco seats the mounts are about 2" tall and with them all the way back on the x brace the wheel is in my lap. Bob has his seats farther back in the gas tank area. I'd like the wheel lower myself though. Bobs wheel position looks more natural.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sorry if I missed it, but why no powder coat or paint?
two reasons
I'm putting in an electric propulsion system, I need to do some frame modifications for motor and battery mounting.
I'm not going with black.
Once I get running in go-kart mode. I will disassemble-powder-reassemble.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Bob, your feet will be way back from the bulkhead because of the pedals... At least you can use all the cockpit space with no fuel tank to worry about!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, your feet will be way back from the bulkhead because of the pedals... At least you can use all the cockpit space with no fuel tank to worry about!
Hi Dan
I don't have a gasoline tank. But I do need about 6 cubic feet of battery energy storage for the range I want. There is 8 gallons in a cubic ft. So I need to find a spot for a 48 gallon tank.

I was going to put a box behind the seat 12"x48"x12". Now I'm looking at a Boyd style battery box with only 2 cubic feet..
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

what form factor batteries are you using? You should be able to modify the center tunnel... What KWH for a target? Range desired?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Dan
I have a bunch of lithium large prismatic cells and some large cylindrical cells. Could use either, maybe both in the 2 cars to compare performance.
28kwh 120 miles, but don't quote me on that, my bucket list changes daily.

The chassis needs to be about 6" wider for me to use the center tunnel.

[Frank818]

Bob, with the current technology (or should I say the one you will be using), can we roughly say "the bigger the battery the more powerful"? So if we want more power and more range we need to think big?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, with the current technology (or should I say the one you will be using), can we roughly say "the bigger the battery the more powerful"? So if we want more power and more range we need to think big?

Not always true. In our electric superbike, we have a relatively small pack outputting out north of 200 HP.

http://youtu.be/4cX-_eB8nkk

Battery companies normally try to balance between power, energy, life. Some companies have power cells and energy cells in the same form factor.

[RM1SepEx]

Your motor and diff can't take that much space, with no radiator in front too you should have plenty of space. It's easier if designed electric from the outset for sure. too bad the form factors don't allow a centralized battery location. Willing to let out any more drivetrain details? Voltage, amps, controller, motor? Single speed?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Your motor and diff can't take that much space, with no radiator in front too you should have plenty of space. It's easier if designed electric from the outset for sure. too bad the form factors don't allow a centralized battery location. Willing to let out any more drivetrain details? Voltage, amps, controller, motor? Single speed?

I'm exploring all battery location option. Right no I'm looking at 33% in front of forward firewall. 66% of batteries where engine is normally. If I use the radiator area I could get closer to a 50/5o weight distribution.

The only thing I want to disclose now.
It will be a Flux Vector AC motor controller. (my design)
Obviously an AC motor.
First car will be single motor. Street, Autocross, HPDE
Second car will have more than one motor. (2 or 4) My son wants to change the chassis to an R.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

sounds like one hell of a setup! I found my biggest problem with my electric reverse trike was the ungodly noise...

all the little rocks and pebbles off the tires drove me nuts!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

sounds like one hell of a setup! I found my biggest problem with my electric reverse trike was the ungodly noise...

all the little rocks and pebbles off the tires drove me nuts!

I never really thought about that, I'll have to do some sound deadening to the wheel wells.

[Frank818]

Bob,

Can you disclose more technical info on the 1st setup and future goal you want to reach?

For example, you expect the 28kw motor to produce how much hp and tq, what expected performances (0-60 time, top speed, other), how long to charge the batteries if you drove say 110miles out of the 120 and on what voltage (110, 400, other?), weight of the batteries with or without other hardware (or total weight of car if possible). Stuff like that.

And then what would be your feasible goal? 4 motors AWD, 0-60 under 3.5s, 160mph top, 200+miles range and 1h charge on 110volts? If yes, I think that would be a serious option for me. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob,

Can you disclose more technical info on the 1st setup and future goal you want to reach?

For example, you expect the 28kw motor to produce how much hp and tq, what expected performances (0-60 time, top speed, other), how long to charge the batteries if you drove say 110miles out of the 120 and on what voltage (110, 400, other?), weight of the batteries with or without other hardware (or total weight of car if possible). Stuff like that.

And then what would be your feasible goal? 4 motors AWD, 0-60 under 3.5s, 160mph top, 200+miles range and 1h charge on 110volts? If yes, I think that would be a serious option for me. :)

Hi Frank
I am not ready to disclose any more details than I have already as I have a number of different components to choose from. I am constantly evaluating between weight, power, size, range and cost to come up with the best package. The same as you would do with a gas engine.

I did not say I had a 28kw motor. I have a goal of a 28kwh battery pack. According to the MPGe standard, 33.7 kilowatt hours of electricity is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline. Good thing my electric system is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

The EVDL (electric vehicle discussion list is loaded with info on this) Here is a link to my first EV about 15 years ago. http://www.evalbum.com/377 and another http://www.evalbum.com/3507

Now, Back to installing my ABS. BUILD TIP. DO NOT USE A CHEAP DOUBLE BAR FLARE TOOL.

[RM1SepEx]

Hi Frank


Now, Back to installing my ABS. BUILD TIP. DO NOT USE A CHEAP DOUBLE BAR FLARE TOOL.

No kidding! wasted a bunch of my time using one of those too!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

No kidding! wasted a bunch of my time using one of those too!

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/OEM-In-line-flaring-tool-kit/_/N-26gg?itemIdentifier=238197_0_0_

This one is working much better.
Bob

[DodgyTim]

I have an Eastwood, maybe a bit more than you'd want to spend for one project, but amazing quality flares in seconds
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AlRwAI7OTqY

[Frank818]

Do we really need that tool or can we re-use the OEM tubing from the donor?

[David Hodgkins]

Tim, that Eastwood tool looks amazing. Thanks for the link!

:)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do we really need that tool or can we re-use the OEM tubing from the donor?
Re-using tubing would be a pain. But possible.
FFR supplies tubing and adaptors for brakes with a front proportioning valve (sae fittings).

But I am using the ABS, so I have a lot of custom lengths needed.
I used the FFR tubing but used my donors fittings so I didn't need the adaptors.

Tip: If your buying any fittings to go into the donors stuff. Us M10-1 inverted flare (Japanese) . The M10-1 bubble flare is for European.
bob

[Mechie3]

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/OEM-In-line-flaring-tool-kit/_/N-26gg?itemIdentifier=238197_0_0_

This one is working much better.
Bob

Thanks for the link. I took a gamble and got a $10 ebay one, but it only does single flares. I figured for $10 it was worth the gamble if I lost (which I did).


I have an Eastwood, maybe a bit more than you'd want to spend for one project, but amazing quality flares in seconds
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AlRwAI7OTqY

I've been eyeing that and saying "I really sholdn't buy this.....I really shouldn't buy this.....but it's so cool.....but I really shouldn't buy that".


Do we really need that tool or can we re-use the OEM tubing from the donor?

I saved all my stuff and once I got the kit I folded it up and stuffed it into the scrap metal recycle box. It's be a huge pain with all of the funky custom lengths and bends in the OEM stuff.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Ready for Glider test this weekend (one of my milestones)
Braking system functional with no leaks(no abs yet)
Emergency brake functional.
steering complete(except for some spacers)
Front suspension complete and aligned.
rear suspension complete and aligned.
temporary seat installed.
ride height set to 5" because springs won't let me go lower with this light load.
R888 225-45-16 tires all around
16" 6.5" 55 offset stock rims.
stock 06 NA brakes
seat belts temporarily installed


21824

21825

21826

21827

I'll let you know how it goes.
Bob

[Mechie3]

Nice. I'm missing enough parts (my fault not FFR) so can't quite put wheels on yet.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I weighed my 818 in the condition as my post 93 above.

Front axle = 446 lbs
rear axle = 394 lbs
total glider weight 840 lbs or 382 Kg

Does anyone have the weight of a complete engine with 5MT?
Bob

[mspice]

What are the specs on your AC motor? Are you going to sell your custom controller?

Have you thought about going for the government incentive for EVs? I think it is only for "new" cars, but what is a new kit car?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#United_States

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What are the specs on your AC motor? Are you going to sell your custom controller?

Have you thought about going for the government incentive for EVs? I think it is only for "new" cars, but what is a new kit car?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles#United_States

I'm looking for performance equal to WRX version of the 818 on the second car. We will see soon If I'm able to meet that performance goal.
No answer on your other question at this time.
I have no clue on the government incentives. I just build things and let others worry about the money and politics.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

EV has to be production for subsidies

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I know glider is not go kart mode. (Erik had his car 2 months before me)
But I did drive my 818 down the road today.
See videos:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8AglmTEA1k&feature=youtu.be

Everything went great.
Steering, braking, and smoothness. I could not get the slightest bark out of the tire with aggressive steering at 35-40 mph.

The car was more aerodynamically challenged then I thought.
I was expecting it to be able to maintain momentum to go back up some rolling hills. But the drag to weight ratio was just to high.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael driving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPiq4m7o4QQ&feature=youtu.be

[Frank818]

Those vids are of a great quality, keep posting. :)

So what you're saying is that you're lacking power?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So what you're saying is that you're lacking power?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_glider
Since the definition of a glider is a vehicle without a powertrain. I guess you could say I'm lacking power.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today investigated what I had as far as axle go.
21935

The top axle is the rear out of my 2006 NA wagon donor.
Second axle is the front out of my 2006 NA wagon donor.
The bottom 3 are FFR axles.

The right side of the top rear axle must match the right side of the FFR axles.
The left side of the second front axle must match the left of the ffr axles.

The 3 leg tripod fits all the important splines. 29 spline about 23.5 to 24.0 mm OD.
All is good.
Bob

[Frank818]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_glider
Since the definition of a glider is a vehicle without a powertrain. I guess you could say I'm lacking power.
Bob

Sorry, I didn't know that. First time I hear about glider, sorry.
Never built a car from scratch before.

[AZPete]

Bob, I've seen over a hundred go-kart videos, mostly roadsters, but never a Glider! And, certainly not on a public road. I cringe at what you have started and imagine someone in Colorado Springs will try to top you with a Glider down Pikes Peak. OMG
Pete

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I've seen over a hundred go-kart videos, mostly roadsters, but never a Glider! And, certainly not on a public road. I cringe at what you have started and imagine someone in Colorado Springs will try to top you with a Glider down Pikes Peak. OMG
Pete

Mike and I had a great week a pike peak this year winning the motorcycle hill climb with our rider Carlin Dunn.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2013-ppihc-carlin-dunne-is-an-electric-rider-faster-than-the-rest-62290.html
I'm sure people on bicycles race down the hill. I would love to have my second 818 ready for next summers race. I would have to get a good driver to make the run.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Put the body on to look how the wheels fit.
The tires are 225/45-16 (9" wide 23.8 tall) on donor 16 x 6.5 with 55 offset rims. wheel are spaced out 10mm over stock. My ride height is at 5"
22159
22160
22162

The fronts had 2.5" fore and aft and about 1.5 above.
The tire is flush with the side of the car.

The rear wheels have 2.5" fore, aft, and above.
The tire is inset 3/4"

I like the front flush with my 9" tires but will go up to a 8" wide rim.
In the rears I'm going to go with 1" wider tires on 8" wide rims.
The 255/50R16 in back is almost 26" in diameter. So it will fill the wheel well better.
Do you agree?
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I thought someone might want a blank slate to color in the back of the car.
Bob

22163

[RM1SepEx]

I'm glad I went with my 26 inch tall 225-55-16 in the rear...

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Steering wheel position
Is there an easy way to move the steering wheel closer to the dash?
Bob

[Mechie3]

I don't think there is. Its not a collapsible column. Only way is to make a shortened joint between that and the rack.

[Wayne Presley]

Yes there is, use an flat aftermarket steering wheel with a short adapter.

[Mechie3]

Should have specified there isn't an easy way to move the stock wheel.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Yes there is, use an flat aftermarket steering wheel with a short adapter.


Does anybody make a short adaptor and quick release in one module? Everything I'm finding, you have to stack them. So the wheel ends up in the same place.

[VD2021]

Does anybody make a short adaptor and quick release in one module? Everything I'm finding, you have to stack them. So the wheel ends up in the same place.

https://www.getnrg.com/products/quick-release-kits/thin-version/feed

I have one on my GTM. Makes the driver's side entry and exit almost as easy as the passenger side.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

https://www.getnrg.com/products/quick-release-kits/thin-version/feed

I have one on my GTM. Makes the driver's side entry and exit almost as easy as the passenger side.

Do you still need a hub to go from this quick release to the steering shaft?

[VD2021]

Do you still need a hub to go from this quick release to the steering shaft?

Unfortunately yes. The thin quick release will be an additional item mounted between the hub adapter and steering wheel. So it will actually bring the steering wheel aft ~1".

[metalmaker12]

Michael driving

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPiq4m7o4QQ&feature=youtu.be

Now I have seen everything

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Now I have seen everything
We did 3 runs down the hill hitting 35 mph. Maybe 40 mph getting towed back up each time.
When I was a kid, we nailed some lawnmower wheels to some wood and called them jitneys.
My wife accuses me of being a big kid now. I can't argue with that.
Bob

[Mechie3]

There's a song by Yellowcard that goes "they say 'you don't grow up, you just grow old', it's safe to say I haven't done both". :)

[wallace18]

Now I have seen everything

So thats how those EV's get such great mileage! LOL.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm hijacking my own thread so everyone can watch this video. IOM TT with no crashes.


www.youtube.com/embed/QjdLNB5FI0s

[Bob_n_Cincy]

ok, that one was to slow

http://youtu.be/LU-ynRoqDEs

[killerrudy]

I can't wait to get back to the states and get my kit ordered. I know you will be done with yours by the time that I get back home. Hopefully I will be able to check it out and get some insight for when I actually get mine and start the build. Glad that there is someone so close who will have one as well. Two including your sons!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I can't wait to get back to the states and get my kit ordered. I know you will be done with yours by the time that I get back home. Hopefully I will be able to check it out and get some insight for when I actually get mine and start the build. Glad that there is someone so close who will have one as well. Two including your sons!
Hey Rudy
The wait time is a year if you get in now. Now telling if you wait. I would get a $100 deposit in now if you can.
I don't know where your at.
Just let me say THANK YOU and be Safe.
Bob

[killerrudy]

Hey Rudy
The wait time is a year if you get in now. Now telling if you wait. I would get a $100 deposit in now if you can.
I don't know where your at.
Just let me say THANK YOU and be Safe.
Bob

Yeah I had read about the wait. I am looking into trying to get one put down thru my brother. Also I saw you picked up your kits yourself. How long was the drive?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

First post on my own thread in almost a month.
Progress on the 818Se has been slowed by a couple of things. My son (sophmore in high school)had to put in some more time studying instead of working on the car with me. My business has me hopping around the country and trying to complete a hot project. I predict slow progress untill the first of the year.

The main area I have been working on, is making the 818 Wookie compatable. (My son is 6"3 250 with a curved back) I have customized a Kirkie seat. No tank or batteries will fit behind the seat. I am in progress of moving the pedal box 3" forward. I will publish pictures when I'm done.

Secondly, I am designing custom battery boxes. Unlike Erik's build, I am putting more batteries up front going for a 50/50 weight split. I probably won't make it, but I'm going to try.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

For those interested in an electric 818. Here is a video on what I consider one of the most advanced electric cars on the planet.

http://youtu.be/q_cRqcbXAs4

[VD2021]

For those interested in an electric 818. Here is a video on what I consider one of the most advanced electric cars on the planet.

http://youtu.be/q_cRqcbXAs4

The Rimac Concept One Supercar is another electric loaded with tech. http://youtu.be/8BV1FCMGgps

[Frank818]

For those interested in an electric 818. Here is a video on what I consider one of the most advanced electric cars on the planet.

http://youtu.be/q_cRqcbXAs4

Batts last 10-15mins. Just enough to go to and back from grocery store. lolll I want one.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Batts last 10-15mins. Just enough to go to and back from grocery store. lolll I want one.

I have involved with electric vehicles since 1994 starting with the formula lightning racing series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qjJWFRrlI . I rule of thumb i have is a 1000 lbs of lead acid batteries is equal ranges as 1 gal of gas.
Example: GM EV1 would get 50 MPG at 60mph if powered by gas. With 1200 lbs of lead acid it got about 75 miles range.
Lithium Ion batteries are about 5 times better. So the EV1 would get 375 miles with with 1200 lbs of li-ion.

My new rule of thumb for li-ion is 1 gal is equilalent to 200 lbs of batteries.
The Drayson car i suspect 30 MPG at 60 MPH. It has 600 lbs of batteries. so 3 time 30 is 90 miles range at 60 mph.
On the track it at racing speeds might average 10 MPG so 3 x 10 is 30 miles at race pace. so the 10-15 min at race pace makes sense.
Bob

[Frank818]

It's just like the Veyron! It lasts about 12mins when pedal to the metal.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Been slow working on the 818 EV. Last week I was working on a little heavier EV, 80,000 LBS plus 40,000 payload. That's only 66 times heavier than an 818. This one has a governed top speed of 6 mph. I will be using the same size motor controller in my 818 without a governor.
Bob
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23417&d=1384582882

[RM1SepEx]

movin' coal...

[Frank818]

Bob, don't plan on swapping the wheels and tires onto the 818? :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, don't plan on swapping the wheels and tires onto the 818? :)
I don't know, These are 42" diameter solid run flat tires. With about a 12" hub adapter they should fit. I will have to recalibrate my speedometer to miles per 2 hours.
Bob

[Frank818]

Crap, just saw your motorbike video posted in Oct. I don't know I didn't see the youtube square before, weird. Those guys are either stupid or super highly talented!! Or both... :)
And maybe you are one of them, actually? Driving like that on the road and in the wet? Then only super highly talented. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Crap, just saw your motorbike video posted in Oct. I don't know I didn't see the youtube square before, weird. Those guys are either stupid or super highly talented!! Or both... :)
And maybe you are one of them, actually? Driving like that on the road and in the wet? Then only super highly talented. :)

Frank, I am the propulsion guy on the Lightning team. I haven't been on a motorcycle since I was 20.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cX-_eB8nkk

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Is everyone's planning to leave the bottom of the engine compartment open to get a lot of air circulation in the engine compartment?
I originally thought the belly pan would go al the way to the rear diffuser.
Does anyone have a picture of the underside from sema?
Bob

[Frank818]

I don't. I plan on flattening it out to increase airflow underneath, but I also plan on fitting custom NACA air scoops on that belly panel (hence why I would have loved VRaptorspeedworks.com to design them) to at least get some air flow and possibly a fan running either in the rear bumper's mesh or the IC mesh (which won't be used for anything for me) to get the hot air out. That is my current plan, it may change though! :)

I think we have some not too bad pix from the red car on FFR's gallery. Uhmmmm, nope, not really actually. :)

But, in your case, it's all electric, so do you bother about air flow in the rear compartment?

[Wayne Presley]

Lotus has snap in NACA ducts on the Elise/Exige belly pan, cut the outline and snap them in. I'll get the part number at the shop today

[Bob_n_Cincy]

But, in your case, it's all electric, so do you bother about air flow in the rear compartment?

Hi Frank, Good catch, on the Electric car I only have about 1/20 the heat dissipation to worry about. A radiator the size of an intercooler will handle everything. I will close in the bottom the best I can.

I have changed plans on my second car (Michael's) to go gas. We pick up our 04 forester XT donor today. I should start a second build thread to keep them separated.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Pick up the 04 forester xt donor for the second car today. 2.5L with turbo.

8 hour round trip to Detroit in the rain. Had to do a MacGyver when all the running light on the trailer blew my vans fuse. I knew that cigarette lighter extension cord would come in handy someday.

Michael will have a busy weekend taking it apart.
first car took us a couple of weeks. He has learned to forget about the dremel tool and goes right to the 8" grinder with cut of wheel. I always start with hand tools, he goes straight for the air tools. He did kick my butt autocrossing this summer, Maybe I should learn from him.


First thing I check when I got it home. Does not look like the cam sprockets got damaged and was listed as "runs and drive"

2351123512

Do I need battery power to get it out of park so I can get it off the trailer?

[longislandwrx]

No there should be a shift lock override near the shifter, pop the cover and stick something in the hole to get it into neutral.





Edit:

Boom

23513

[Frank818]

I have changed plans on my second car (Michael's) to go gas. We pick up our 04 forester XT donor today. I should start a second build thread to keep them separated.
Bob

Ah that's true. Let's see how that one will compare to the e. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

No there should be a shift lock override near the shifter, pop the cover and stick something in the hole to get it into neutral.

Edit:

Boom

23513

Thanks LongIsland
Info Just in time, I on my way to get it off the trailer in a few minutes.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My Powder coater just sent me some of the pictures. I'll publish more details later.

2351423515235162351723518

[thestigwins]

That looks awesome.

[Mechie3]

Very nice! Love the color.

[Frank818]

Nice blue!

[metalmaker12]

Sick

[ehansen007]

So this is the straight ICE car right? I don't see any E-mods to the frame! :) Looks beautiful.

[WIS89]

Bob-

Powder coat looks great! I like your EV idea, and have enjoyed watching your progress!

Regards,

Steve

[adubbelde]

Sick

Exactly my thought

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So this is the straight ICE car right? I don't see any E-mods to the frame! :) Looks beautiful.

Yes, Chassis #21 is full EV 250HP. Frame mods to mount motor and battery boxes.
Change of course, Chassis #22 is 2.5L turbo ICE.

Big day today.
Jump started the coparts 04 forester xt. Purred like a kitten.
Picked up chassis #22. I can't stop smiling every time I look at the paint.
Color is Prismatic Powders Super Chrome covered by Intense Blue (transparent)

I hate to cover it up. Do you think I could talk Dave into a crystal clear thermal formed body?

Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Bob, what happened to change the son's car to ICE? I thought they were both to be electric...

[longislandwrx]

Do you think I could talk Dave into a crystal clear thermal formed body?

Who needs a body?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, what happened to change the son's car to ICE? I thought they were both to be electric...
We plan on both cars being DD/autocross/trackday vehicles.
It is going to be hard enough to find a class to run the ICE 818 in. The EV 818 and it will be difficult to class.
What better way to demonstrate the EV/ICE than Identical cars side by side.
The ice will be 2.5L with stock turbo and tune. I am shooting for equivalent EV performance.
I may have to use the ICE to tow the EV to the track.

This may sound silly to some. I'm thinking of mounting a hitch ball up-sided-down in the transmission mounting plate. Then turn the coupler over on my race tire trailer.
Bob

[rtz]

What motor are you going to use for the EV? Also what are the power specs on your inverter and what size pack are you going to run? What battery for the pack?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What motor are you going to use for the EV? Also what are the power specs on your inverter and what size pack are you going to run? What battery for the pack?
Hi RTZ
The inverter will be an Flux Vector Controller which is a product I designed. It will be 250 peak HP.
The motor and battery Info is still in flux. no pun intended.
Bob

[Oppenheimer]

I may have to use the ICE to tow the EV to the track.

This may sound silly to some. I'm thinking of mounting a hitch ball up-sided-down in the transmission mounting plate. Then turn the coupler over on my race tire trailer.
Bob

818 towing an 818, that will be a sight! A lot of people will be confused seeing that...

[theburner9]

My Powder coater just sent me some of the pictures. I'll publish more details later.

2351423515235162351723518

Did you have to get the frame sandblasted first? I've got my frame at the powder coater's place and he's saying the slag from laser cutting isn't ideal for powder coating. I'd like to think he knows what he's talking about but if no one else bothers blasting theirs then I won't either.

[RM1SepEx]

Blast it! the coating will stick much better.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Did you have to get the frame sandblasted first? I've got my frame at the powder coater's place and he's saying the slag from laser cutting isn't ideal for powder coating. I'd like to think he knows what he's talking about but if no one else bothers blasting theirs then I won't either.

He sand blasted first, then washed, then phosphate etched, then powder chrome, then powder translucent blue.
He has been powder coating for my business since 1997. But 98% of his powder coating is industrial machines and parts.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Has anyone thought about putting radiator on the back wall of the car above the transmission instead of in the front.
What would be the advantages/disadvantages?

[Frank818]

Usually that's not a very efficient spot, aerodynamics wise.
If they are in the back or 3/4 rear area, they normally are in a place where there's lots of air flow.

I did check about that and what I understood is if the car isn't designed to have them in the rear it may well not work in an efficient manner. I couldn't find many cars with rads in the back. It seems the Aventador has it int eh 3/4: http://www.carbodydesign.com/2011/05/lamborghini-aventador-the-design/

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Back on thanksgiving Michael and I made the decision to build our second 818 chassis a gas engine.
We are trying to have it ready for the coming Autocross season. So all our focus has been on the second 818.
Here are some pictures of the Electric version as it sits waiting for it's turn.
Bob

25110

25111

[wleehendrick]

Here are some pictures of the Electric version as it sits waiting for it's turn.


poor neglected step-child!

[ehansen007]

Nice 888's. Best looking tire out there.

[longislandwrx]

with an additional transaxle like that one, how hard would it be to make this AWD?

would the cost be significant?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

with an additional transaxle like that one, how hard would it be to make this AWD?

would the cost be significant?

I can push the motor intermittently with my controller to 250 HP.
The gearbox is 98% eff so 245 WHP.

My battery peak output is 300 HP. So no need on this car for another motor.

The original plan for the second car was 4 100Hp motors on each wheel. I have the motors and batteries. A custom gearbox would have to be designed. Something like the picture.
That plan is on hold for now.
Bob

2512025121

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Bob.

That motor/egear drive looks good. What do you know about the acceptable angles the egear is ok with regarding mounting? I read somewhere that is could be set at different angles. . . but I can't seem to find where I read that.
So, you must know Jeff Major huh??

[Gary Livingston]

Has anyone thought about putting radiator on the back wall of the car above the transmission instead of in the front.
What would be the advantages/disadvantages?

It's probably less of an issue with the electric drive vs an ice application. The heat dissipation for an ice is huge in comparison. If you have thermostatic controlled electric fans on the rad for your application, I think you could mount it almost anywhere. . . assuming it had free flow space around it and wasn't getting opposite air pressure from fwd motion of course. It would depend on size of rad, flow rate, temp delta required etc....to be specific.

[Gary Livingston]

Are you able to get the drive mounted so you have equal length half shafts?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Bob.

That motor/egear drive looks good. What do you know about the acceptable angles the egear is ok with regarding mounting? I read somewhere that is could be set at different angles. . . but I can't seem to find where I read that.
So, you must know Jeff Major huh??

Hey Gary,
acceptable angles are 10 deg to 90 deg.
26902

I got my start in EV's in 1994 working with Jeff on Formula Lightning.
26903
And many other projects over the last 20 years.
That car is in a museum now. I must be getting old.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Are you able to get the drive mounted so you have equal length half shafts?
I can get equal length half shafts if I mount the motor behind the axle.
I think I have about 50 half shafts for that transmission with ford outers.
Bob

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Gary,
acceptable angles are 10 deg to 90 deg.
26902


I got my start in EV's in 1994 working with Jeff on Formula Lightning.
26903
And many other projects over the last 20 years.
That car is in a museum now. I must be getting old.
Bob

Thanks very much, that's exactly what I was looking for. :)
LOL, ya, I hear ya. . .just don't slow down. I've not been in the game that long, but must admit I'm pretty hooked.
Jeff is a plethora of information. I learned a lot from him. He helped me (theoretically, I did all the work lol) make one 13" series motor out of a couple compound wound motors. He knows more about electric motors than anyone else I know. . . . and continues to help a lot of people on the DIY forum.

[Canadian818]

The original plan for the second car was 4 100Hp motors on each wheel. I have the motors and batteries. A custom gearbox would have to be designed. Something like the picture.
That plan is on hold for now.
Bob


Think you could fit it in the front? Not sure how simple it would be to move the coilovers. I'm dreaming of F1 style(batteries) KERS with Porsche GT3 Hybrid (flywheel, designed for F1) delivery. (ie. rwd going into the corner, awd coming out) Is this plausible, or a pipe dream? I guess anything is possible, and its being done in different forms with HUGE budgets, but how plausible on a DIY scale?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Think you could fit it in the front? Not sure how simple it would be to move the coilovers. I'm dreaming of F1 style(batteries) KERS with Porsche GT3 Hybrid (flywheel, designed for F1) delivery. (ie. rwd going into the corner, awd coming out) Is this plausible, or a pipe dream? I guess anything is possible, and its being done in different forms with HUGE budgets, but how plausible on a DIY scale?

Things are tight in the front. Coil overs, frame, and steering column are all in the way.
I would start from scratch on firewall forward to put 2 motors in there.

It is all plausible on a DIY scale because all the building block are out there.
Finding the time while have a job is the hard part.
Bob

[Canadian818]

I got time, but not a clue. I get confused reading Erik's thread every time. Can you suggest a book or resource to learn the basics of building a EV? I've tried some forums, but it's all over my head.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I got time, but not a clue. I get confused reading Erik's thread every time. Can you suggest a book or resource to learn the basics of building a EV? I've tried some forums, but it's all over my head.

All electric vehicle have 4 main components.
Charger, battery, motor controller, motor.
Then there 3 or 4 technologies for each of these.

Let me know what part you need help with an I will try and explain.

this was my first book 20 years ago.
http://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Vehicle-ebook/dp/B0015DRPHC

Bob

[rtz]

I have that book :)

You need to get your electric 818 going so you can get into EVCCON for free with it: http://evtv.me/evccon/

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I have that book :)

You need to get your electric 818 going so you can get into EVCCON for free with it: http://evtv.me/evccon/
I might be there.

[Gary Livingston]

Think you could fit it in the front? Not sure how simple it would be to move the coilovers. I'm dreaming of F1 style(batteries) KERS with Porsche GT3 Hybrid (flywheel, designed for F1) delivery. (ie. rwd going into the corner, awd coming out) Is this plausible, or a pipe dream? I guess anything is possible, and its being done in different forms with HUGE budgets, but how plausible on a DIY scale?

Stay tuned. . . it's coming. My build will be AWD (818SeX4).

[Frank818]

AWD? I was waiting for one to be made before I decided on my engine setup. Too bad I already jumped.
Make it great, we want to see that AWD! This will launch like hell!!

[wleehendrick]

My build will be AWD (818SeX4).

That will be fun to watch. When I explain the concept of 818 to people I always have to re-iterate, no it's not AWD, even though it's a Subie drivetrain...

OK, now whose going to be the first to try to build a hybrid? (EJ in back/electric in front)? :confused:

[Canadian818]

Stay tuned. . . it's coming. My build will be AWD (818SeX4).

Such a tease!

[Gary Livingston]

Such a tease!

I don't want to hi-jack this fine thread. . . and it's a bit early to start gabbing about it. Getting it worked out in my little brain right now.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do you think they will let me compete in Formula E with my 818Se?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptBVdys-mo&feature=youtube_gdat

[Jodie]

I think I have about 50 half shafts for that transmission with ford outers.
Bob

Bob,

Do you have any plans to sell off some half shafts?

Cheers

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob,

Do you have any plans to sell off some half shafts?

Cheers
Yes I will sell most. Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I haven't had much time lately to work on my electric 818.
But it looks like I made it into a movie for about 1 second.


http://www.traileraddict.com/on-any-sunday-next-chapter/trailer

I was congratulating Carlin Dunne after our Pike Peak Victory last summer. (fastest motorcycle up the mountain)
Looks like a good movie to me.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm Hijacking my own thread.
My 818 progress has been slow because of other projects.
This weekend we introduced our new electric superbike at the Quail Motorcycle Gathering.
Called the LS-218 (after the speed we achieved at Bonneville) This is very similar to the bike that won with at Pikes Peak last summer.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29258&d=1400449787

He is my an article about it.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/lightning-motorcycles-ls-218-electric-superbike-2/

Bob

[Frank818]

218mph????

[Bob_n_Cincy]

218mph????
yes, the 2 way average was 215.960MPH
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/08/24/video-lightning-motorcycles-raises-land-speed-record-to-215-960/

More info if you interested
http://lightningmotorcycle.com/news/
Bob

[Frank818]

Jesus, that is quick! That is freaking quick on a bike!

Is that bike streetable and for sale? I mean the blue one, not the black one on your green.autoblog link.
Actually, the blue one went up to 218 as well?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Jesus, that is quick! That is freaking quick on a bike!

Is that bike streetable and for sale? I mean the blue one, not the black one on your green.autoblog link.
Actually, the blue one went up to 218 as well?

Yes and Yes, 38k for the worlds fastest production Motorcycle.
http://lightningmotorcycle.com/reserve-now/

Blue one is latest greatest. The land speed bike was an earlier prototype. I think the land speed bike is the one in my profile.

On of my favorite pictures after winning the 2010 TTXGP national championship at VIR.
Richard Hatfield (lightning CEO) Jeff Major (EV Guru) Stephanie (Daughter) Michael (Son) and Myself.
Not Pictured is our rider Michael Barnes (Barney)
29269

[metalmaker12]

Wow

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The sound of future racing.
Here is a clip from this years IOM race.
First 2 bike are electric and the 3rd on is gas.


http://youtu.be/DHJGE9IKzUM
I will have 818 of both types.
Bob

[Jaime]

Not trying to downplay 218, because it's really fast. But, to put it in perspective, my fifteen year old Hayabusa could do 196 straight out of the showroom. A $3500 turbo kit later and you have 220.

In the early 2000's when I used to be into this stuff, Lee Shierts did 250 at Maxton, which is only a mile long with limited shutdown room. A streetable bike did 272 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/hayabusa-streetbike-sets-top-speed-record-at-272340-mph-on-maxton-mile/) last year. The crazy part about Maxton is that your top speed isn't limited by power, but by brakes and craziness. You can only go so fast because the shutdown area has a turn a half mile into it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Not trying to downplay 218, because it's really fast. But, to put it in perspective, my fifteen year old Hayabusa could do 196 straight out of the showroom. A $3500 turbo kit later and you have 220.

In the early 2000's when I used to be into this stuff, Lee Shierts did 250 at Maxton, which is only a mile long with limited shutdown room. A streetable bike did 272 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/hayabusa-streetbike-sets-top-speed-record-at-272340-mph-on-maxton-mile/) last year. The crazy part about Maxton is that your top speed isn't limited by power, but by brakes and craziness. You can only go so fast because the shutdown area has a turn a half mile into it.

Hi Jamie,
Gasoline is many time more dense energy storage than batteries. so catching gas with electric in land speed racing is a ways off.

Last summer our electric motorcycle with rider Carlin Dunne was the fastest up the pike peak mountain beating every gas bike the showed up. Same bike as Land speed record with different fairings and rear sprocket.
Check out this link:
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/2013-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-motorcycle-race-results/

Some people say the it was because electric doesn't loose power with altitude. But if you look at the sector times, he was also the fastest at the bottom of the mountain.
Bob

[Speedy G]

Hey Bob, this project sounds pretty amazing actually. I'm also doing an e-build. The hardest part has been designing the drivetrain out of existing parts. I'll be using dual 12,000 RPM induction motors and would like a 2 or 3 gear tranny mainly for acceleration. I've looked at the market but there isn't really anything that works out of the box. My latest iteration uses a 1.5:1 belt drive reducer to a shorty powerglide (2.18:1) then to a ford 8.8 IRS with a 4.88:1 ratio and an LSD. What I would like though is a motor to each rear wheel and a shiftable gear box from 2:1 to 1:1 for each. (Differentials are useless inertia when you have electronics). Can I ask where you got your transaxle or if you built it is there a possibility of buying one from you? I'll have total of 330 ft lbs and 400hp btw and am looking for a total reduction ratio of 14:1 in first gear and 6:1 in second.

Btw if you haven't decided on how to build your motor, check out an ancient project I worked on, the Chrysler Patriot. The motor design was a 4 pole water cooled induction motor. I'd say power density was as high as the modern Tesla.

Speedy G


I can push the motor intermittently with my controller to 250 HP.
The gearbox is 98% eff so 245 WHP.

My battery peak output is 300 HP. So no need on this car for another motor.

The original plan for the second car was 4 100Hp motors on each wheel. I have the motors and batteries. A custom gearbox would have to be designed. Something like the picture.
That plan is on hold for now.
Bob

2512025121

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A quick update on this build thread.
My electric 818se is on hold while my son and I work on his gas version.
It has been going slow for a number of reason similar to others. (family, job, weather, vacations, other projects, ect)
On an interesting note. The other project is the electric motorcycle I am involved with got some celebrity exposure today.
32506

This was at a pre event to the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance this weekend.

http://ecomento.com/2014/08/14/final-spec-for-worlds-fastest-electric-motorcycle/
Bob

[rtz]

It's nice that it will run 218. What's it run in the 1/4?

Are you going to let Jay borrow it for a day so he can do a show about it? https://www.youtube.com/user/JayLenosGarage

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It's nice that it will run 218. What's it run in the 1/4?

Are you going to let Jay borrow it for a day so he can do a show about it? https://www.youtube.com/user/JayLenosGarage

I have no clue what it will do in a 1/4. It is designed as a road race bike. Here is a lap Lemans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBKcX7MFghM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cX-_eB8nkk

Stay tuned for info on Jays Garage.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Our motorcycle was in some good company last week.
Bob
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32776&d=1408852046

[metalmaker12]

A quick update on this build thread.
My electric 818se is on hold while my son and I work on his gas version.
It has been going slow for a number of reason similar to others. (family, job, weather, vacations, other projects, ect)
On an interesting note. The other project is the electric motorcycle I am involved with got some celebrity exposure today.
32506


This was at a pre event to the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance this weekend.

http://ecomento.com/2014/08/14/final-spec-for-worlds-fastest-electric-motorcycle/
Bob


Very cool man!!!!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A little off topic here.
There is a movie about motorcycles coming out in November called "On Any Sunday, The Next Chapter" .
A lot of the movie is about our rider Carlin Dunne.
I am in the trailer at the 2:04 mark.
Take a look at the trailer.
Bob


http://youtu.be/I5nglGD8AVI

[Mechie3]

I saw your face at the 2:03 mark. :) Pretty cool stuff.

[Frank818]

I saw your face at the 2:03 mark. :) Pretty cool stuff.

For a split of a second! Pause function really handy to capture the facial expression. :)

[Frank818]

Hey Bob, have you ever raced the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Bob, have you ever raced the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy?

Yes, 2012, But I did not attend. Rider John Burrows

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35483&d=1415328838

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Just Released a video of our motorcycle on Jay Leno Garage


http://youtu.be/Lz1aTLBKIoQ



A favorite picture from back in 2010 at VIR
Richard, Jeff, daughter Steph, son Michael, and Me.
35794

Bob And Mike

[Scargo]

Very nice. You've had way more than 15 minutes of fame...
I rode bikes from 13 to 36 then quit.

Question: I believe you are building the gas version first and for Auto-X? Has the car ever been run for extended periods or with the skin on? I ask because I am wondering how the rear radiator is working out? I might consider it for my race R if it's viable.
Sorry if you've covered this but I am new to following your thread.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Very nice. You've had way more than 15 minutes of fame...
I rode bikes from 13 to 36 then quit.

Question: I believe you are building the gas version first and for Auto-X? Has the car ever been run for extended periods or with the skin on? I ask because I am wondering how the rear radiator is working out? I might consider it for my race R if it's viable.
Sorry if you've covered this but I am new to following your thread.

HI Scargo,
Thanks for the comment on the bike. I have not rode bikes since I was 25 (30 years ago). This bike is a beast. Plan right now is for me to put similar technology in my second 818 and use it as my R&D platform. Battery, controller, and motor testing. Believe it or not, I have been doing electric drivetrains since the early 80's. My 818 gaser is a new experience for me.

I have zero miles with the skin on my subaru powered 818. I will have the 2 large openings in the back of the car. My experience tells me the 818 design has large low pressure zone behind the rear bumper that will be more than sufficient to suck air out of the engine bay.

The hard part is getting air into the engine bay. I do plan on a full belly pan with no cooling air from under the car. I plan on opening the small side vents with scoops and other body work. I also may go with a lower rake or no windshield to bring air into the 2 humps for racing.

Body will be on by Christmas.
Bob

[flynntuna]

NACA ducts in the belly pan have been done.

[Frank818]

NACA ducts in the belly pan have been done.

Exactly what I intend on doing.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

NACA ducts in the belly pan have been done.
Not being an aerodynamics engineer, I may not be qualified to say this.
NACA duct are not penalty free. Or else race cars would have many on the bottom of the car to suck out air and make down force.

[flynntuna]

Bob, you appear to be right.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/naca_duct.html

[Frank818]

Nothing is penalty free. It's a matter of compromises, everything is built for a purpose, if that purpose fits your needs, then it should be a good way to go. The NACA ducts are a low-drag design, not 0-drag, to flow air into places where it would normally not get much or any. But they provide more than the drawback, assuming you implement them properly for the right purpose. That's how I understand it.

[Wayne Presley]

The ducts on the Lotus bring air into the engine compartment with a side benefit of reducing under car pressure.

[flynntuna]

Yes they are a low drag design, but they apparently work best in a high pressure area such as hoods and the like. A low pressure area like under the car, not as efficient. It would be easier and I'm guessing get better results buy opening the side scoops like FFR did on the R's door panel.

[Frank818]

Not a bad idea, flynn, I intend to open them as much as possible anyway, but my intention on the ducts was to throw air directly on the oil pan. As long as I have some air going there, I'll feel better. From the side scoops it might be more complicated to achieve.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It's time for me to start on the body. My barn is way to cold to work there.
What if bring the hood, front bumper, fenders and headlights inside on my pool table. Then assemble it inside and then transfer it to the car.
What do you think of that procedure?
Bob

[Scargo]

What more could you do than assemble the lights and buckets into the nose? Even then, many have to trim and grind to get the three parts to play nice. I'm going through that right now and even though I am less concerned with fit and finish with my R, I am also finding that to be the case.
The hood must be trimmed to get it to sit flush to the fenders. I do not know what you can get away with in your home. My female companion would pitch a beech if I tried to do that.
If you can get help, or jig it up (like with a tripod helping you), I have found that I can do almost dust-free cutting with my awesome Ingersoll Rand air saw if I setup my shop vac hose very near the work. I am lucky. I keep my shop/garage at 60 when I'm out there. During the zero days we've had lately it's difficult to justify warming it up for a few hours work.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What more could you do than assemble the lights and buckets into the nose? Even then, many have to trim and grind to get the three parts to play nice. I'm going through that right now and even though I am less concerned with fit and finish with my R, I am also finding that to be the case.
The hood must be trimmed to get it to sit flush to the fenders. I do not know what you can get away with in your home. My female companion would pitch a beech if I tried to do that.
If you can get help, or jig it up (like with a tripod helping you), I have found that I can do almost dust-free cutting with my awesome Ingersoll Rand air saw if I setup my shop vac hose very near the work. I am lucky. I keep my shop/garage at 60 when I'm out there. During the zero days we've had lately it's difficult to justify warming it up for a few hours work.

Thanks for your response Scargo.
The whole idea would be to get all the parts "to play nice" together. Getting all edges trimmed and headlight buckets cut up.
Any cutting or sanding, I would take outside because of the dust.
Then just final assembly on the car.
I'm in the same situation with my barn temperature.
Bob