818S Seat Belt Discussion

[Silvertop]

We got off-topic on another thread over the last couple of days concerning potential seat belt issues for the 818S, particularly if the original Subaru OEM 3-Point Harness is not available or if the intended application makes it not desirable. This thread is being created to provide an appropriate place to continue that discussion. Focus will be all things related to seat belts and harnesses, but with special consideration for difficulties in dealing with multiple function needs; Simple street use, track day use, and outright competition.

I'm going to try to copy-paste most of the original discussion in here. Forgive me if it comes out a mess. I have no idea how this is going to work. :confused:

[Silvertop]

Originally Posted by Goldwing

I haven't fully unwrapped everything to be sure, but I've been through both of my crates enough to be pretty sure the seatbelts aren't there. More confirmation, and I guess it makes sense given the last few posts. Makes the 4 point upgrade much easier to justify. I'm a newbie on 4-point belts, how do the upper straps bolt in? Is this something only a custom seat would have provisions for? The stock seats in my crate seem to be in pretty nice condition, I plan to use them.

If memory serves, the upper straps simply bolt to the most convenient location that is strong enough behind the driver's shoulders. There will probably be no auto retracts. While custom seats often have slots for the belts to go through, they are not necessary. You can use your stock seats. I'm going to use mine, unless they put my head too high above the roll bar for passing tech inspection at track day events. Incidentally, if you are planning on doing any track day stuff, you may want to consider going to a 5- or even 6-point system, which will keep you from submarining underneath your belts. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I need to research what is out there..........

Edit: Since I posted this earlier this morning, I've been researching seat belts and harnesses. I have to note that there is a lot of opinion out there against the use of 4-, 5-, or 6-point harnesses in conjunction with stock seats. -- That people should stick with OEM style three point harnesses unless they are using racing seats. I'm not exactly sure why -- at least not yet. To complicate things, there are also folks out there selling aftermarket 4-point systems that are DESIGNED for street use. I need to do more research. I'm glad this question has been raised. I want to make sure I select the best belt system for my needs, and certainly to make sure I don't do anything that compromises safety. I'm sure everyone else wants that, too.

Edit #2:

Well, it looks like it's complicated. There are a whole bunch of factors that will go into selecting the right seat belt system. Here are some of the issues:

Will the vehicle be used purely for street use, for street use plus occasional track days, for lots of track days and occasional street use, or for outright racing use? The answer to that question will govern seat belt selection. Here are some of the reasons why:

Most DOT-rated belts/harnesses are not certified for racing.

Most Racing Harnesses are not DOT certified. In other words, not street legal.

Most Track Day events (depending on the track and the sanctioning body) allow OEM 3 pt belts, though 4-, 5-, or 6-pt will be preferred. Some tracks/sanctioning bodies may have different (more restrictive) rules for non-OEM belt systems. And there really is no OEM system for a Factory Five 818, so one will need to check the rules of the nearby Track Day opportunities available.

If you are going outright wheel-to-wheel racing, the answers are actually fairly simple. Competition harnesses will be required. But if you are planning on driving your racer on the street, you will want to make sure that your harness system is also DOT street legal. Again, most are not, but there are some that are.

There is always the option of installing two separate seat belt systems -- though I think that would be a PITA.

The good news is that there is a lot of neat stuff out there.

The bad news is that we have taken this thread completely off-topic. It seems to me that this discussion has been around before, and there may be a thread already devoted to it. I'll take a look around, and bump it up if I can find it. Otherwise, we should probably create a new thread. Proper seat belt selection is important, and what's best for one build will not be necessarily be so for another.

Last edited by Silvertop; Today at 11:19 AM. Reason: Additonal info.

[Silvertop]

From Mekohler

Agreed, this is the issue I am working through as well. Please continue to share.

[Silvertop]

From Mechie3


Originally Posted by Silvertop
Edit: Since I posted this earlier this morning, I've been researching seat belts and harnesses. I have to note that there is a lot of opinion out there against the use of 4-, 5-, or 6-point harnesses in conjunction with stock seats. -- That people should stick with OEM style three point harnesses unless they are using racing seats. I'm not exactly sure why -- at least not yet. To complicate things, there are also folks out there selling aftermarket 4-point systems that are DESIGNED for street use. I need to do more research. I'm glad this question has been raised. I want to make sure I select the best belt system for my needs, and certainly to make sure I don't do anything that compromises safety. I'm sure everyone else wants that, too.

4 pts: You can submarine with these. The only one that is designed not to is the Scrotch ASM (anti submarine) 4 pt. They're DOT approved (only ones) and have lots of testing done along with videos to show how the ASM system works.

5/6 w/stock seat. 5/6 straps should technically route down through the seat, not necessarily in front of it. Stock seats don't have an opening for the 5/6 strap so it may not do it's required function.

The big issue with harnesses is that most people don't tighten them enough. Anyone that got in my WRX I had to tighten the belts for them. Most complained. There is a misconception that more straps = better. 3 pts are designed to be loose until they lock up. 4/5/6 pts don't lock up. They're only ever as tight as they start. People would loosely put the 4pt on and I'd reach over and crank it down. A loose 4/5/6pt is worthless.

Side note: When I totaled my WRX I was wearing Scroth ASM 4 pts. I tightened them everyday/time I got in the car. Yeah, I couldn't reach teh far side of the radio or the glove box from my seat, but I was safe. The only trouble I had after my accident was light paint between my shoulders as the shoulder straps hold your shoulders/collarbone back and allow your spine to move forward slightly. They held me in place enough that when the airbag went off only the very tip of my nose touched it. This brings up the necessity of (and impracticality of street use of) a Hans device to prevent your body from not moving while your head snaps forward and down.

[Silvertop]

Originally Posted by Goldwing

Good research silvertop, and good call, staying on point to the thread. I'm not involved with any track activities now, but thought the 818 would be the perfect vehicle to start. I guess next summer at the earliest, which means keeping those rules in mind. I'll look to see what provisions FFR has incorporated before deciding, but see what the forum search comes up with in the meantime. Thanks for the info!


Thanks for that. I'm just like you. I haven't been involved in competition in almost 4 decades, but I have an inkling that I'd really enjoy some track day stuff when I complete my new toy. Second childhood silliness, no doubt .:rolleyes:

I think the information provided by Mechie 3 above is of terrific value. A four-point belt with anti-submarine features (ASM) is probably the perfect compromise solution to the street machine-with-track day usage issue. I've just been out to Schroth's website. In addition to their Rallye4 ASM, it appears that the Rallye3 and the RallyCross also have ASM capabilities, and so will also serve. Which will work best may largely be based on mounting points available in the 818. Presumably, there will be easy access to frame locations behind the driver. Thanks, Mechie 3! You have probably brought my personal search for the right seat belt for me to an unexpected swift conclusion! :)

[Silvertop]

From Mechie3

The Rallye 3 and 4 do require mounting parts a bit beyond the seat for the ASM feature to not be interfered with. It may not fit the 818..............

[Silvertop]

Originally Posted by Mechie3

The Rallye 3 and 4 do require mounting parts a bit beyond the seat for the ASM feature to not be interfered with. It may not fit the 818..........

Yes, I've been looking at the mounting instructions for the Rallye3 and Rallye4 -- and my first concern was whether there was something far enough away to attach to. Also, the instructions stipulate that you should attach to the original factory points (which in this case, there probably aren't any). Mechie 3, you already have your kit -- has FFR designated or recommended specific attachment points for seat belts for an 818S? Perhaps the RallyeCross is the answer -- though I'd really rather not use the a wrap around the roll bar........... Perhaps a frame member a bit further back -- though that would put it into the engine compartment, and probably not OK. Might there be a good place other than the roll bar to use a wrap for the shoulder harness?

[Silvertop]

From Mechie3

They only have provisions for stock belts I'll have to cut away the upper firewall to allow a harness to wrap around the frame rail that runs horizontally at shoulder height underneath the round roll hoop.

[Silvertop]

From Mechie3

They only have provisions for stock belts I'll have to cut away the upper firewall to allow a harness to wrap around the frame rail that runs horizontally at shoulder height underneath the round roll hoop.

Won't that necessitate making a new section of firewall that wraps around behind the frame rail that we're attaching the harness wrap to?

Note: That brings my copy-pasting adventure from the other thread to a close. A little clunky, but I guess it worked. Somebody else weigh in. I'm tired of looking at my own avatar. :p

[Goldwing]

So, there are provisions for stock belts. Hmm, I wonder what the chances are that track authorities would just allow the Subaru oem 3-point belt in FFR's, um, oem 3-point location? FFR is a factory too, though understandably don't go to the lengths Subaru would to prove seat belt performance.. Anyone have experience with other kit cars at tracks regarding seat belt approval? I had intended to upgrade the seatbelts to help make up for the lack of airbags, but as my 818 is replacing my Goldwing, any combination is safer than the Wing in an accident.

[Wayne Presley]

Always go with a 5 or 6 point harness if you are not using the Subaru stock belts. The 5th/6th point keeps the lap belt across your hips and not making mud pie out of your intestines/organs in an accident.

[Silvertop]

So, there are provisions for stock belts. Hmm, I wonder what the chances are that track authorities would just allow the Subaru oem 3-point belt in FFR's, um, oem 3-point location? FFR is a factory too, though understandably don't go to the lengths Subaru would to prove seat belt performance.. Anyone have experience with other kit cars at tracks regarding seat belt approval? I had intended to upgrade the seatbelts to help make up for the lack of airbags, but as my 818 is replacing my Goldwing, any combination is safer than the Wing in an accident.

That precise question has occurred to me too. It would seem to me that a track day program sanctioning body that is flexible enough to allow factory 3 point belts would probably not be anal enough to worry about a stock 3 point belt installed in a kit car, particularly if the installation was sanctioned by the kit car manufacturer. Probably doesn't hurt that the manufacturer is FFR. But that is just my best guess. Not really worth very much, I'm afraid.

[Silvertop]

Always go with a 5 or 6 point harness if you are not using the Subaru stock belts. The 5th/6th point keeps the lap belt across your hips and not making mud pie out of your intestines/organs in an accident.

Gotta respect your opinion, Wayne. But are you familiar with Schloth's 4-point ASM (Anti-Submarining) line of belts? They are designed with special features that keep the lap belts where they belong, and are supposed to keep the wearers from sliding underneath. At least, that's the claim. If you are familiar, you are apparently not convinced.

What is the quality of the factory Subaru 3-point harness that prevents IT from making mud pie out of your intestines/organs...........?

[Mechie3]

3 point harness has 2 solid points and 1 movable point (the buckle). As your upper body moves forward in an accident, it pulls the lap belt tight. In a 4 pt, because you have 4 solid points, as your upper body moves forward the only compliance is the lap belt sliding upwards. OEM 3 point front belts also have pyrotechnic charges that tighten the belt. If the air bags deployed the front belts are trash as the charge goes off and locks the belts permanently.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

3 point harness has 2 solid points and 1 movable point (the buckle). As your upper body moves forward in an accident, it pulls the lap belt tight. In a 4 pt, because you have 4 solid points, as your upper body moves forward the only compliance is the lap belt sliding upwards. OEM 3 point front belts also have pyrotechnic charges that tighten the belt. If the air bags deployed the front belts are trash as the charge goes off and locks the belts permanently.

Now I know why me donor belts don't want to retract. Will the rear seat belts work?
Bob and Mike

[Silvertop]

Now I know why me donor belts don't want to retract. Will the rear seat belts work?
Bob and Mike

Bummer........ I've been doing a little bit of parts research on OEM as well, due to input picked up here. The rear belt systems do have a different part number, so that indicates they are not precisely the same. That doesn't mean they won't work in the front -- I don't know the answer to that. I can tell you that replacing OEM belt systems is an expensive proposition if you don't already have them, or if the ones you do have are compromised. Seat belt assemblies seem to run nearly $300 per side, and I'm not sure that includes all the necessary installation hardware. I suppose one could go out to ebay and buy some used stuff, though I'm not at all sure I would want to do that.

Which takes us back to aftermarket options. The most cost-effective and presumably next-best safe option is a 4-point system with ASM technology, which is supposed to provide Anti-Submarining benefits due to design. To the best of my knowledge, the only maker offering this technology is Schroth (it's patented). They offer three products for street use -- the Rallye3, the Rallye4, and the RallyeCrosse. However, all of them are by definition street harnesses, and are not competition belts. They will not pass tech inspection for wheel-to-wheel racing. They will almost certainly meet the requirements of a track day sanctioning body. And at about $180 per side, they are moderately affordable. But per some of the discussion above, is that safe enough? You decide.

I did discover one very interesting product on the Schroth website. The have an ASM technology belt based on their Profi II, which is (they say) their most popular competition harness. This belt is called the Profi II ASM FE, and is of similar design to he competition design except that it has the ASM technology and is sold as a four-point for those who will also be driving on the street. However the cam-lock system used on this harness has the capacity to accept an additional one- or two-strap submarine belt. In this configuration, it is entirely FIA certified for competition use. And meets DOT certifications as a four-point. Also, it is designed to be used in configurations where there isn't much usable space available, which is the case with the 818. Could be the best of both worlds. Expensive, though. $340 per side, and I don't think that includes the add-on submarine belt. But so far, it seems to me to be the only thing out there that entirely meets competition and street needs at the same time.

Note to Administrator: I don't wish to step on the wrong side of the forum rules regarding the promotion of one vendor or manufacturer over another. I have no vested interest in promoting Schroth products, or any other brand/maker of belts or harnesses. There are any number of quality makers out there, and most of them are probably less expensive. But the discussion here is about finding the safest options that will work for 818 builders who may desire their cars to be capable of both street and competition functions. ASM technology is part of that discussion, and as far as I can know, Schroth is the only maker that offers it. Please feel free to slap me down if I have in fact stepped over the line. :p

[Goldwing]

Compare the mounting tabs and the buckle shape (front to rear), then finally overall belt length. Front belts are usually longer to accommodate for the sliding seat. If they do work, for an added measure of safety, you might consider a new buckle as well, it was likely stressed in the donor-making accident.

Considering Mechie3's input, it puts another check in the 3-pt column for me. Kinda felt a new seat was needed for the crotch strap, seems like a lot of work to try and retrofit a factory seat, with questionable strength as well. In my donor kit, the wheels were in bad shape, but the seats are quite nice. I think I'll throw the extra money at new wheels and save on the seats. There's always an opportunity to upgrade later when the seats start looking tired. :)

[Wayne Presley]

Note to Administrator: I don't wish to step on the wrong side of the forum rules regarding the promotion of one vendor or manufacturer over another. I have no vested interest in promoting Schroth products, or any other brand/maker of belts or harnesses. There are any number of quality makers out there, and most of them are probably less expensive. But the discussion here is about finding the safest options that will work for 818 builders who may desire their cars to be capable of both street and competition functions. ASM technology is part of that discussion, and as far as I can know, Schroth is the only maker that offers it. Please feel free to slap me down if I have in fact stepped over the line. :p


I love the Schroth belts, the Enduros that I have in one of the Elises are AWESOME. Too bad they are $550/set... :-(

[rori]

I thought we were supposed to be using the rear belts??? Did something change?

[Silvertop]

I thought we were supposed to be using the rear belts??? Did something change?

If that is so, I have been completely unaware of it. Which doesn't mean that you are wrong. But the focus of this discussion is really about other options if the stock belts don't work for a particular build, or if they are unavailable at an affordable price. Or if someone just wants to go with competition belts. We're just discussing choices. But I admit I am curious about your assertion, Rori.

Has anybody else read that the FFR intention was for use of the rear belts?

[Silvertop]

I love the Schroth belts, the Enduros that I have in one of the Elises are AWESOME. Too bad they are $550/set... :-(

I must confess that I am most impressed with the Schroth line of belts also. I particularly like the Profi II ASM FE, because of its versatility, its suitability for competition or street use. Looks like it will cost me $375 per seat with the inclusion of the sub strap. It's most likely what I will go with.

[Goldwing]

I thought we were supposed to be using the rear belts??? Did something change?

I believe the preliminary list of needed donor parts did list the rear seat belts last year, but the current list does show front seatbelts now. Typo or change of plans, I guess.

[RM1SepEx]

We use the rear belts

[cmcintyre]

Even as we all make personal choices about seats and harnesses, I assume that a priority is to ensure whatever the choice, it is a safe system that will function properly. To that end, even though this is a set of racing rules, here is an outline for the requirements for installing a 4, 5 or 6 point system.

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/static/ForTheRacer/BMW_CR_Rules-2013-v18.5.pdf

Page 90ff

And it is a system. We should be careful not to mix apples and oranges. A shoulder harness has to have both proper angles and spacing to work right and that usually precludes a stock seat with no cutouts. While a neck restraint ("HANS") is required in racing, the guidance for installation is valid for any non 3 point system.

Just hate to see a major injury if and when one of our 818's goes into a guard rail or the Armco.

[Wayne Presley]

Here is the Profi II enduro half way down on this page http://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi/profi-II
Best harness I've ever used

[Silvertop]

Even as we all make personal choices about seats and harnesses, I assume that a priority is to ensure whatever the choice, it is a safe system that will function properly. To that end, even though this is a set of racing rules, here is an outline for the requirements for installing a 4, 5 or 6 point system.

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/static/ForTheRacer/BMW_CR_Rules-2013-v18.5.pdf ..................................................


Thanks for providing this. As you point out, it IS a system, and we need to be careful not to "mix apples and oranges". I reviewed the harness pages in the BMW CCA racing rules you provided, and realized that there are issues there that WILL affect the decision-making process.

Most importantly, there is the realization that one CANNOT use a five- or six-point system (which includes submarine straps) on stock seats. The anti-submarine strap(s) need to pass through a slot designed into the seat -- something that is not there in the stock seat. They cannot simply pass around the front of the seat. Mechie 3 referenced this in an earlier post, but I missed it on the first read through.

Unfortunately, it has been precisely my intention to use the stock seats, for several reasons. I'm ultimately building a street machine, and the stock seats are really more suited to that role. Also, I'm really too old to sit on the floor, and I like the extra height the stock seats will give me :p. Also racing seats tend to have sides on them, which makes entry and exit more difficult. Of course, if it turns out that the stock seats put my head too high to qualify under the broomstick rule, I'll have to give up on the stock seats anyways, or else give up on doing any track day events.

Which means I can't use a 5- or 6-point harness, and means that I must do one of the following:

1) Use the Subaru factory 3-point belts. Issues: Those of us who bought donor pallets did not get these, and new ones are expensive (about $300 per side). Additionally, it is likely that the factory pyrotechnic charges for pretensioning under impact may not be functional when installed in the kit car, depending on how the car is wired. And if we are using the rear belts, the pyrotechnic charges may not even be there in the first place. Which, presumably, makes the anti-submarining qualities of the three point belt less effective than it was originally.

2) Use aftermarket retractable 3-point belts. This is the most cost-effective solution, at $75-$80 per set. Major aftermarket makers (such as Corbeau) offer these. But they also will not have the built-in pyrotechnic charges. And will they really be safe enough for track-day use, even if they pass tech inspection?

3) Use a 4-point system with ASM (Anti-Submarining) technology. This pretty much means Schroth belts, as they are the ONLY maker with this technology (Patented). That means either the Rallye3, Rallye4, RallyeCross, or Profi II ASM FE harness. I think I like the Profi II -- I perceive it to be the most "serious" of the four.

4) Bite the bullet and buy the dang seats. Then select the best suited competition harness system. Not sure I want to do that, but it is a choice, and it may come to that.

All this just to do the occasional track day. There are choices, and they will be affected by the planned use of the car, and the budget. Bottom line though, is to be safe for whatever you are doing when you do it. The wall you hit at 130 mph isn't going to care whether your are racing wheel to wheel, or engaging in a Sunday afternoon track day session. Or losing it on a wet twisty road on the street. Food for thought.

[Mechie3]

I'll let you know how my aftermarket seats feel. My stock WRX seats hurt my lower back on trips longer than 1 hour.

[Silvertop]

I'll let you know how my aftermarket seats feel. My stock WRX seats hurt my lower back on trips longer than 1 hour.

Please do! Also, let us know how they are for ease of entry and exit, and any other comfort issues that come to mind. Same questions for anybody else who is installing aftermarket seats.

FYI, my donor seats came out of an Outback Sport, and I'm pretty sure they are not the same. So they could be more comfortable, less comfortable, or about the same as your WRX. I need to talk to my cousin David......... He has an Outback Sport of about the same vintage. Might be able to learn something from him...........

[Xusia]

Silvertop, I've got pretty much the same use case as you. I decided early on I was going to try the stock seats with the factory 3-point seat belts. Why? Because: 1)They came free with my donor and are in good shape (NOT the case for you, I understand :(); and 2)I can always upgrade later if I'm unsatisfied with the results.

Applying this to your situation, it seems to me the aftermarket 3-point belts would be the least cost and would allow you to try the stock seats. You could always start with just 1 side and see what you think.

On other note, you mentioned using the 4-point ASM harness in your post, but I thought you previously stated the ASM system couldn't be effectively used on a stock seat because of the lack of cutouts. Do you mind clarifying whether the Schroth 4-point ASM harness is safe to use on a stock seat (that is, does the ASM system work properly when using stock seats)?

[Silvertop]

Silvertop, I've got pretty much the same use case as you. I decided early on I was going to try the stock seats with the factory 3-point seat belts. Why? Because: 1)They came free with my donor and are in good shape (NOT the case for you, I understand :(); and 2)I can always upgrade later if I'm unsatisfied with the results.

Applying this to your situation, it seems to me the aftermarket 3-point belts would be the least cost and would allow you to try the stock seats. You could always start with just 1 side and see what you think.

On other note, you mentioned using the 4-point ASM harness in your post, but I thought you previously stated the ASM system couldn't be effectively used on a stock seat because of the lack of cutouts. Do you mind clarifying whether the Schroth 4-point ASM harness is safe to use on a stock seat (that is, does the ASM system work properly when using stock seats)?

Several of the 4-point ASM belt products can be used with stock seats, so long as the they have headrests, and the headrests are separate and not integrated into the seat (so that the harness straps may pass beneath them). Seat cutouts are needed for 5-and 6-point systems that have submarine straps. There are other issues. You need something to tie the shoulder harness portion off to, and there isn't much room. But it looks to me like at the very least, the Schroth RallyeCross belt, which has two totally separate shoulder straps that do not connect to each other and tie off with a wrap around a roll bar, harness bar, or appropriate chassis frame member, can be made to work. I may be able to use the frame member directly beneath the roll bar. The good news is that this particular belt system, at $180, is among their least expensive. It is not a certified competition belt, but it does not need to be for track day adventures, and it really should be a step up from a three-point factory style harness, particularly one that doesn't employ a working pyrotechnic charge pretensioner. I really like the Schroth Profi II ASM FE, which is a 4-point with the capability of being a 5- or 6-point, (and competition certified in that configuration) but it is not clear if that belt will be workable. And it is expensive (but I'm OK with that.....) We shall see.

If it turns out that I can't make one of the 4-point ASM's work, I will probably do exactly what you are recommending -- Start with a 3-point factory style belt, and see how things go....... But I'm optimistic that I'll be able to make one of the those ASM 4-points work.

[Samiam1017]

Why don't you use factory or factory style 3 point for street use and the 4 point ASM belts you like for track use. I know you don't want to buy two sets of belts for one seat. But maybe that's the best way? Start with the factory belts. Then put in the ASMs when your ready for track use. Leave the shoulder belts hang off the bar behind the seat when not in use and the lap belts clips in when needed.

[Mechie3]

Some tracks don't like/allow the 4 point ASM.

[Silvertop]

Why don't you use factory or factory style 3 point for street use and the 4 point ASM belts you like for track use. I know you don't want to buy two sets of belts for one seat. But maybe that's the best way? Start with the factory belts. Then put in the ASMs when your ready for track use. Leave the shoulder belts hang off the bar behind the seat when not in use and the lap belts clips in when needed.

I would be perfectly happy using the 4-point ASM's all the time, street or track. I don't really want redundant belts. But as Mechie 3 points out above, some tracks/and orsanctioning bodies for track day events may not like ASM's. I don't understand that. I should think that it would be a superior belt to the factory 3 point...........

That particular matter is simple enough to resolve. I know the tracks I would be likely to frequent -- Brainerd International Raceway (BIR), Road America at Elkhart Lake WI, and Blackhawk Farms near Rockford Illinois. I'll research those places. If I can't use a four-point ASM, then I can use the factory style 3-point. Or spend the money on the full competition setup, seats and all.

[Turboguy]

Several of the 4-point ASM belt products can be used with stock seats, so long as the they have headrests, and the headrests are separate and not integrated into the seat (so that the harness straps may pass beneath them). Seat cutouts are needed for 5-and 6-point systems that have submarine straps.


I have been using Schroth ASM harnessbelts in my cars for about 15 years.


Remember to follow their installation guidelines, including the fastening method for and angle of the rear straps. This is absolutely mandatory for safe operation.


I also seem to recall Schroth having a list of "approved" OEM seats. In addition to the separate head rest requirement, the seat backs also need to be able to withstand the downward compressive force they will be subject to in the event of a crash. Schroth was testing popular OE seats for this purpose and had a list in their brochures and online from what I recall.

[flytosail]

Has anyone had any problems on inspections when it came to the 4 or more point seat belt and harness set ups?

[Silvertop]

I have been using Schroth ASM harnessbelts in my cars for about 15 years.


Remember to follow their installation guidelines, including the fastening method for and angle of the rear straps. This is absolutely mandatory for safe operation.


I also seem to recall Schroth having a list of "approved" OEM seats. In addition to the separate head rest requirement, the seat backs also need to be able to withstand the downward compressive force they will be subject to in the event of a crash. Schroth was testing popular OE seats for this purpose and had a list in their brochures and online from what I recall.

There is such a list. Curiously, the only list on the Schroth website relates to the Profi II ASM. And it is disturbing to note that the list had "no install" in the applicability column for Subaru automobiles. The other potential ASM's had no list available. So I called HMS Motorsports (the US distributor for Schroth) today for an explanation. Their tech guy told me that the list is obsolete, and is no longer applicable. He said that either the Profi II ASM from their "Competition" product line or the "RallyeCross" from the "Tuning" line will work just fine with a Subaru seat, and will be OK for the 818 assuming that a suitable "wrap" attachment point within the acceptable strap angle is available.

So one or the other of those should work. Worst case scenario -- one might need to install a "harness bar" to get the angle right -- which, conveniently, is something they (and others) also sell.

Like Flytosail, I would also like to know if anyone on the forum has had first-hand negative (or positive) experiences at Track Day Event tech inspections while using 4-point ASM's. Hmm -- maybe I'll call HMS Motorsports back tomorrow and ask THEM about that..........:rolleyes:

[StatGSR]

Has anyone had any problems on inspections when it came to the 4 or more point seat belt and harness set ups?

^ define inspection? tech inspection for a track day, yearly state inspection, kit car registration inspection... things are different in every state you know.

[StatGSR]

silvertop,

i would suspect the biggest concern you will run into at an HPDE regarding belts would be that the driver and passenger both share the same "style" of belts, almost every set of "rules" or tech inspection i have seen for an HPDE has mentioned this. They are not a fan of the driver being safety'd up in a harness and race bucket while they are forced to flop around in a stock seat like a rag doll. I would also guess that any instructor would be much happier in a harness (even a 4 point) when they are in a car that lacks air bags and other interior panels, keep in mind, air bags are part of the "safety system" for a factory car. I know i would rather try my luck with the 4 pt if i got to ride with you at BIR in the coming years.

Also this will not be regulated by the track, but by the organization putting on the event, so even at the same track, opinions on the same setup could differ, but strickly speaking from an HPDE stand point, i doubt you would run into problems.

[Silvertop]

silvertop,

i would suspect the biggest concern you will run into at an HPDE regarding belts would be that the driver and passenger both share the same "style" of belts, almost every set of "rules" or tech inspection i have seen for an HPDE has mentioned this. They are not a fan of the driver being safety'd up in a harness and race bucket while they are forced to flop around in a stock seat like a rag doll. I would also guess that any instructor would be much happier in a harness (even a 4 point) when they are in a car that lacks air bags and other interior panels, keep in mind, air bags are part of the "safety system" for a factory car. I know i would rather try my luck with the 4 pt if i got to ride with you at BIR in the coming years.

Also this will not be regulated by the track, but by the organization putting on the event, so even at the same track, opinions on the same setup could differ, but strickly speaking from an HPDE stand point, i doubt you would run into problems.

Yes, I did a little research on Track Day guidelines at BIR a while back and found that the BIR Performance Driver's School rules (which also sponsors Track Days) specifically stated that they want the same restraints on both sides of the car. I'm guessing that it will be the same most anywhere, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. Whatever system I wind up putting into my 818, it will be the same for both seats. When I'm cost crunching my belts, it means I'm multiplying by 2 for everything I buy. Which means that if I go with the best $400 ASM that is available, it's really going to cost me $800. Which is painful. But I'm betting that my passenger wants to survive just as much as I do.:)

I think Flytosail's question above regarding ASM's was specific to people's experience at tech inspection at track day events. The rules probably WILL vary from one place and one sponsoring body to another. Though the rules seem to be generally fairly flexible. Perhaps TOO flexible.

[flytosail]

Actually, I was concerned with the initial inspection and the yearly NH inspection. Sorry about no being clear. My bad.

[Silvertop]

Actually, I was concerned with the initial inspection and the yearly NH inspection. Sorry about no being clear. My bad.

Well, for what it's worth, Schroth claims the 4-pt ASM belts we are discussing all meet NHTSA/DOT requirements per FMVSS 209 Specifications (From the CFR 49 Federal Register). So there really shouldn't be an issue with state inspections........

[Silvertop]

Hey Wayne --

It seems to me that you've driven the prototype 818R and 818S on the track during early testing. I'm assuming that both were fitted with full harnesses. Where specifically were the shoulder belts tied off? I'm guessing that they were attached with a wrap, possibly to the horizontal frame members directly beneath the roll bars. The height looks about right. Correct? If not, where?

[Grintch]

Some tracks don't like/allow the 4 point ASM.

Some organizations don't either. NASA IIRC for example requires either the OEM belts or competition belts for Time Trial & HPDE with nothing in between (4 point tuner belts) allowed.

[Silvertop]

Some organizations don't either. NASA IIRC for example requires either the OEM belts or competition belts for Time Trial & HPDE with nothing in between (4 point tuner belts) allowed.

That certainly confirms the need to check with your local facility Track Day's sanctioning body regarding what's acceptable and what's not. The fly in the ointment for the 818 is that there really is no OEM belt. After all, the car really isn't a Subaru, is it? Even though many components ARE Subaru, including at least potentially, the seats -- the frame most definitely is NOT. And it is also a near certainty that the airbag system will also NOT be in use. So it may be difficult to predict how the sanctioning groups will react if one shows up with ANYTHING other than a full competition legal seat belt system.

We will need to do our homework.

[freds]

Budget restraints etc. mean I'm going with stock seats for a start, and want to use stock WRX rear seat belts...as per 818S build manual. Unfortunately I don't have my donor belts.......

Anyone using aftermarket seats with harnesses want to get rid of their stock units?

PM me please.

Thanks

fred

[freds]

Budget restraints etc. mean I'm going with stock seats for a start, and want to use stock WRX rear seat belts...as per 818S build manual. Unfortunately I don't have my donor belts.......

Anyone using aftermarket seats with harnesses want to get rid of their stock units?

PM me please.

Thanks

fred

Thanks guys...I have had several responses already, so am sorted out.

This is a great forum community!

fred

[Goldwing]

Good idea Fred! I'm in the same boat. Anyone who didn't get a response from Fred is welcome to PM me as well. Gray or black, but I need the receiver/buckle as well. Due to legalities, 818donors can't sell used seat belts, so I've got nothing there. Thanks!

Rich

[Silvertop]

Good idea Fred! I'm in the same boat. Anyone who didn't get a response from Fred is welcome to PM me as well. Gray or black, but I need the receiver/buckle as well. Due to legalities, 818donors can't sell used seat belts, so I've got nothing there. Thanks!

Rich

For the same reason, I have no belts either. But I'm not sure how I'm going to jump initially. One option is to use the stock seats as originally planned, and simply buy some Subaru stock belts, like you and Fred. Another is to purchase the patented Schroth 4 pt anti-submarine belts for use with the stock seats, though there is no guarantee that all sanctioning bodies of HPDE track day events will accept them. A third choice (for me, at least) is to consider the Corbeau Sport Seat, which is meant for use in a Daily Driver, but can be purchased with the optional anti-submarine belt slot. Pair those with a 2 sets of Schroth Profi II ASM harnesses, which are 4pt ASM harnesses capable of accepting the additional Anti-Submarine belts, making them fully competition legal, and I have the best of both worlds. But between the seats and the special harnesses, I can kiss about another $1200 goodbye. It depends in part on how high I sit with the stock seats. Gotta be able to pass the broomstick rule. If I'm too high, I need to go with different seats anyhow. If I'm low enough, then it becomes just another choice to make. Hmm -- might do it anyway.:rolleyes:

[D Clary]

I have a set of black, do you need front or rear? I got confused with the posts. I am using a 5 point when I get my kit. you can get an SFI rates set for a hundred bucks from speedway motors. They are dated and good for three years. The lap belt mounts to the stock lap location, the shoulder harness loop around the bar behind the seats, and the sub connects to a bar below the front of the seat. The anti sub belt is the only one that may need mounting adjustments. Anyway I'll sell you the belts you want for 50 bucks plus shipping. My donor is an 03 wagon.

[JeromeS13]

I have a set of black, do you need front or rear? I got confused with the posts. I am using a 5 point when I get my kit. you can get an SFI rates set for a hundred bucks from speedway motors. They are dated and good for three years. The lap belt mounts to the stock lap location, the shoulder harness loop around the bar behind the seats, and the sub connects to a bar below the front of the seat. The anti sub belt is the only one that may need mounting adjustments. Anyway I'll sell you the belts you want for 50 bucks plus shipping. My donor is an 03 wagon.

I hope you're not planning on using racing harnesses with the stock seat. I would highly recommend against that, from purely a safety standpoint...

[Goldwing]

Silvertop, I've been all over the map on this as we discussed. I'm going to start with stock belts and seats and get started that way. When everything is running and I'm getting used to the 818, and start looking into some track events, etc, I'l talk to my local track and compare notes with setups, here on the forum at that time. Through absence of experience, I'll likely buy something and not be able to use it, lol. At least that's this week's plan, ask me again next week. ;)

[Silvertop]

I guess I'm really pretty much where you are, Goldwing. Except that whatever I do, I really don't want to do it twice. The height of the stock seats will be the lynchpin of my decision. If my 5'9" frame meets the broomstick rule with the stock seats, it means I can almost certainly find a way, either with the use of stock 3-pt harnesses or with the use of one of Schroth's 4-pt ASM's to meet Track Day requirements without spending great sacks of money. A bit of research on the expectations of HPDE sanctioning bodies and race tracks in my part of the world will also help the decision process.

Right now, the target is still stock seats, with the harnesses yet to be determined. At least that's this week's plan, ask me again next week! (Hmm -- did I hear that somewhere else before?) :rolleyes:

[D Clary]

I have only run Hooked on driving events and they kind of have a self tech policy. The only time there would be objections is if you need an instructor. He or she could refuse if the safety gear was lacking. this would usually be in the beginner group. I think trackmasters is similar. The only problem I see with the stock seat as they are high, if you are a tall person it could put you well above the roll bar. That could be more of an issue than the belts.

[RM1SepEx]

I guess I'm really pretty much where you are, Goldwing. Except that whatever I do, I really don't want to do it twice. The height of the stock seats will be the lynchpin of my decision. If my 5'9" frame meets the broomstick rule with the stock seats, it means I can almost certainly find a way, either with the use of stock 3-pt harnesses or with the use of one of Schroth's 4-pt ASM's to meet Track Day requirements without spending great sacks of money. A bit of research on the expectations of HPDE sanctioning bodies and race tracks in my part of the world will also help the decision process.

Right now, the target is still stock seats, with the harnesses yet to be determined. At least that's this week's plan, ask me again next week! (Hmm -- did I hear that somewhere else before?) :rolleyes:

no way that you will fit the broomstick rule with stock seats and a helmet, I've had my 05 wrx seats in the car. Note: Factory 5 is remaking the mounts as they didn't line up properly with the frame x members, I doubt that they can make them much lower. I also put in a set of Miata seats, they give more leg room and are a bit lower. I'm afraid aftermarket seats are almost mandatory... The stock WRX seats BARELY fit between the tank and the front 1 inch bar that comes down at an angle, NO positional adjustment is possible. Not sure how much foam you can remove...

[Silvertop]

I have only run Hooked on driving events and they kind of have a self tech policy. The only time there would be objections is if you need an instructor. He or she could refuse if the safety gear was lacking. this would usually be in the beginner group. I think trackmasters is similar. The only problem I see with the stock seat as they are high, if you are a tall person it could put you well above the roll bar. That could be more of an issue than the belts.

Your comments are probably right on the money. But I WILL need a ride-along instructor, at least for the first time I do this (probably at Brainerd International Raceway's Performance Driving School), so belt issues may be a factor. That is probably easily resolvable with a little communications to them and other sanctioning groups even before belt install is done. And I should know whether the seats will work soon enough. I'm not particularly tall, so my chances are good. I'll test fit them as soon as it is practical after receiving my kit, which is being delivered the first week in October.

Of course, it's also possible that at the end of the day, I just won't LIKE the stock seats..............;)

[Grintch]

Just for reference the SCCA & NASA rules on seat belts/harnesses:

SCCA TT level 1 (PDX) - Sec. 12 Driver Restraints:
All drivers in PDX (Level 1) events may utilize factory/OEM restraints or a restraint harness meeting the specifications of section 12.1 in
lieu of the factory/OEM restraints.
A seven-point restraint harness is recommended for all events. Arm restraints are optional on all cars but recommended on all open
cars including open Targa tops, sunroofs and T-tops. The restraint system installation is subject to approval of the Chief Technical and
Safety Inspector.
12.1. RESTRAINT REQUIREMENTS
1. A four point restraint system, for use in enclosed automobiles only, may be employed where the driver is seated in an upright
position. Only 4 point restraints that incorporate a manufacturer designed method for prevention of submarining may be used.
Five, six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver is seated in an
upright position.

Non enclosed car -> 4 point restraints not legal. Level 2 and above require competition harness & a roll bar (the S roll bar does not appear to meet the roll bar requirments).

NASA CCR 11.3.2 (for HPDE & TT) - The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a DOT approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted. Effective May 1, 2011, the only four-point belt systems that are allowed for use in HPDE / TT are 1) those that carry an “FIA B-xxx.T/98 certification, or 2) those that carry a label from the belt manufacturer stating that the belts meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) 209 AND that the belts were designated for the specific vehicle (e.g. “For use only in BMW E36 models”). Such label must be easily visible to the NASA inspector. Note- four-point belt sets that have a DOT certification alone are not allowed.

Do the Schroth belts have the FIA T/98 certification? In the short term they obviously will not have a "For use in the Factory Five 818 models" desingnation to go with thier DOT certification. But maybe FFR can work that with them on that?

I guess for both you can still try and argue that the stock Subaru belts are stock belts on the 818.

[Mechie3]

There's no easy way to mount the schroth harnesses in the 818.

[Silvertop]

Grintch:

Thanks for providing the detailed SCCA & NASA rules for Level 1 and HPDE type events. Plenty of food for thought (and concern) there. It is of course, not at all clear that the specific bodies sanctioning any particular Track Day events are necessarily using either of those sets of rules. Which is, of course, what makes this particular discussion so difficult. The only way to know for sure is to contact the sponsoring groups and ask them what their practice is -- and we may discover that it is largely discretionary on the part of the event's chief tech inspector. But I'd rather not wait until event day to find out whether my car is legal to go out and play.

So -- based on the rules above, then -- the Subaru 3-point belt may be legal, but perhaps only if one can convince tech inspection that it is the "Stock" belt for an 818, or that ANY belt is Stock. It's not 100% clear that we will win that argument.

Since a 4-point belt (with or without anti-submarining features) will not be legal for an open car per the rules above, then the only sure thing may be the Schroth Profi II ASM--FE, which is entirely DOT certified when used as a four-point ASM, and entirely FIA competition certified when the optional submarine belts are added in to the mix. The DOT push-botton release Cam-Lock that this harness uses has a place for the submarine belt(s) to be attached. This, of course, will require the use of aftermarket seat with submarine belt slots.

I'm not really familiar with the T-98 rule, so I can't really address that -- but I think we can be certain that FFR not designated any particular belts (except maybe the stock Subaru 3-points?) as authorized by them.

Given that the primary qualifier is height (broomstick rule), I find it unlikely that the 818's roll bar won't meet qualifications, unless it is simply not tall enough.

Mechie 3, why do you think there will be a problem with using a Schroth harness? If the square tubing behind the driver won't work, I should think it will just be a matter of attaching a harness bar to it. Thoughts?

[longislandwrx]

I think he's saying since the Schroth anti-submarining 4 point attaches to the rear seat lap belts (which don't exist on the 818) you cant use them.

[Silvertop]

I think he's saying since the Schroth anti-submarining 4 point attaches to the rear seat lap belts (which don't exist on the 818) you cant use them.

I was guessing that, though I didn't want to assume. It's not entirely true, though. Schroth's street legal 4-point ASM RallyeCross belt, which is designed for use in cars with no back seat, ties off with a roll bar or harness bar wrap, either with a wrap or a snap-bolt setup.

The Profi II ASM FE, which is entirely street legal as a 4-pt ASM, and also entirely racing legal when the separately purchased anti-submarine belts are attached to the DOT certified push-button cam-lock, also ties off with a roll bar or harness wrap. Also, any of their other outright competition belts tie off in this manner. However, most of those will not be legal for street use.

So there are really only two choices available from that maker, and of those two, The Profi II ASM FE may be the only sure thing for getting past a fussy HPDE event Tech Inspector AND the state DOT guy. An expensive way to go, since these belts are about $340 per set (not counting the add-on submarine belts), and it will also require a pair of aftermarket seats with built-in anti-submarine slots. Ah well, it's only money......:p

[longislandwrx]

I know cobra guys in NY that only have 5 pts. no problem passing inspection. I guess we'll see what happens.

[JeromeS13]

I thought a bolt-in harness bar option for the S had been discussed in one thread, but I can't find it. Anyone @ FFR know of anything related? I need to make up my mind as to whether FFR will be powdercoating my frame...

Thanks!

[Silvertop]

I thought a bolt-in harness bar option for the S had been discussed in one thread, but I can't find it. Anyone @ FFR know of anything related? I need to make up my mind as to whether FFR will be powdercoating my frame...

Thanks!

I can recall perhaps one reference (somewhere) to the addition of a harness bar, though I don't remember precisely where. If I remember correctly, the inference was that it was something FFR might have been looking at. But I'm really not sure. And I'm not sure the discussion was for a bolt-on. I'd love to see it, since my goal is for my 818 to be entirely track-day ready, even though it is not destined to be "race car". If nothing materializes, I may need to have something welded in myself, although I haven't given up on being able to use the upper frame crossmember directly beneath the roll bar. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

I ordered my frame powdercoated. If necessary, I'll just have to mess it up.............

[JeromeS13]

From every seat that I've seen installed, the upper square tubing will be too low and put the harness beyond an acceptable angel of 20 degrees from the horizon. We need something that is mounted 2-3" above that bar, like on the R chassis. If FFR doesn't have a solution soon, looks like I'll be ordering mine without powder. With this being the only exposed part of the chassis, I want it to be "pretty" and not have to touch it up after the fact...


I can recall perhaps one reference (somewhere) to the addition of a harness bar, though I don't remember precisely where. If I remember correctly, the inference was that it was something FFR might have been looking at. But I'm really not sure. And I'm not sure the discussion was for a bolt-on. I'd love to see it, since my goal is for my 818 to be entirely track-day ready, even though it is not destined to be "race car". If nothing materializes, I may need to have something welded in myself, although I haven't given up on being able to use the upper frame crossmember directly beneath the roll bar. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

I ordered my frame powdercoated. If necessary, I'll just have to mess it up.............

[Silvertop]

From every seat that I've seen installed, the upper square tubing will be too low and put the harness beyond an acceptable angel of 20 degrees from the horizon. We need something that is mounted 2-3" above that bar, like on the R chassis. If FFR doesn't have a solution soon, looks like I'll be ordering mine without powder. With this being the only exposed part of the chassis, I want it to be "pretty" and not have to touch it up after the fact...

Your car, your call........ As for me, I'm lazy. I'd rather do a little touch-up than paint or powder-coat the whole frame after the fact.:rolleyes:

[Mechie3]

The reference to the bolt on bar was from me. I got an email from FFR stating I'd have to fabricate a bolt on solution (assuming I don't want to mess up the PC frame) to run non stock seatbelts.

[Silvertop]

The reference to the bolt on bar was from me. I got an email from FFR stating I'd have to fabricate a bolt on solution (assuming I don't want to mess up the PC frame) to run non stock seatbelts.

Well, that mystery is solved. Are you going to fabricate a bolt-on solution? Maybe you would like to make more than one? You might be able to sell them. I know of at least one guy who would be pleased to pay for such a product...............:rolleyes:

[Mechie3]

:lol:

I'll have to see what I come up with. Might have to buy/make a large tubing bender.

[JeromeS13]

I sent an email to FFR. Let's see what they say. :-D

[flynntuna]

I thought a bolt-in harness bar option for the S had been discussed in one thread, but I can't find it. Anyone @ FFR know of anything related? I need to make up my mind as to whether FFR will be powdercoating my frame...

Thanks!


That thread is in the ask a tech section of the forum.

[GUNS]

I hope a harness bar comes to fruition. How was this not thought of considering the S is meant to be a track ready car?

[JeromeS13]

That thread is in the ask a tech section of the forum.

I knew it was somewhere! I thought I was going crazy there for a second...

Thanks!

[Silvertop]

I hope a harness bar comes to fruition. How was this not thought of considering the S is meant to be a track ready car?

I think the assumption was that people would use the stock Subaru three-point belts, and this would be good enough to satisfy tech inspection by Track Day sponsoring bodies. However, it is not clear that would necessarily work, since the 818 might not be regarded as a Subaru (which could then mean that the Subie belts are not "stock"), and also because of the absence of the Subaru air bags.

But I'm with you. A full competition harness (in my opinion) is going to be the safest way to go for any kind of track use. I wish they had designed it in as well. Wouldn't have been that hard to do. Simply weld in a horizontal cross member from one side of the roll bar to the other at an appropriate height for a harness wrap. I suppose that the height of that bar might need to vary depending on the seat design and the height of the driver -- which could make a factory install difficult --, although I should think that the 20% angle rule could create a one-size-fits-most situation.

Of course, the 818S is designed to be a streeter, and I'm assuming that most (or at least many) owners will not necessarily have Track Days or any form of competition in mind for their car, and may not want the extra cross member. One way or another, I guess those of us who really want to get on a race track or engage in other types of competition will find a way to fit a harness.

[RM1SepEx]

Perhaps you need to think out of the box...

If you need it to be 2 or 3 inches higher why couldn't you just bolt on a 2 or 3 inch high piece of aluminum with rounded top edges and wrap the belt around it and the existing square tube? Use big countersunk socket head cap bolts to ensure that it can't rotate vs the square tube under load and you are done...

or weld up a steel tube at the correct height with several stancions and bolt it down through the existing square frame member to get to the correct place?

[Silvertop]

Perhaps you need to think out of the box...

If you need it to be 2 or 3 inches higher why couldn't you just bolt on a 2 or 3 inch high piece of aluminum with rounded top edges and wrap the belt around it and the existing square tube? Use big countersunk socket head cap bolts to ensure that it can't rotate vs the square tube under load and you are done...

or weld up a steel tube at the correct height with several stancions and bolt it down through the existing square frame member to get to the correct place?

Good ideas, Dan. And something on the order of one of your suggestions is probably what I WILL do. And it would be within my skill set to do fabrications of that nature myself. -- TX

[RM1SepEx]

I have a friend who drives an Lotus Formula Ford, he's quite tall and had to add a clamped in harness bar due to his height... not too difficult to do.

I put the stock belts in my S but fully intend to have a harness in at least the driver's seat for Autocross.

[Mechie3]

I was going to try and utilize the existing seatbelt mounting tab to locate one end of a harness bar. Depending on where the body sits, an ideal bar would stretch side to side between both mounting tabs and have a support in the middle.

[JeromeS13]

Here's the response from Jason @ FFR:

"Hi Jerome,

We do plan to offer a bolt-in seat harness bar for the 818S, so I think it's
safe to plan on that being available at some point. It's not even in
prototype form at the moment, so you'll have to wait a bit, but we've got a
plan for how we're going to do it, so I don't think it'll take all that
long."

[Silvertop]

I was going to try and utilize the existing seatbelt mounting tab to locate one end of a harness bar. Depending on where the body sits, an ideal bar would stretch side to side between both mounting tabs and have a support in the middle.

That's a great idea. If it works out, it should make for an easy fabrication, and also provide for harness attachments for both seats, which I think is important for this application.

Of course, if FFR comes through with a bolt-in for the 818S in any kind of reasonable time frame (for me, by next summer, if my build goes well), there will be no need for me to fabricate anything. :)

[wleehendrick]

I think the need for a harness bar depends greatly on seat choice and mounting. If you look at Tom Wallace's build thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9031-Wallace18-quot-s-818-Build&p=120690&viewfull=1#post120690), notice how low his Kirkeys are. I assume his plan is to wrap around the square chassis tube. A harness bar in his case would be too high.

I will be installing fixed back buckets mounted low, so I"m optimistic I won't need to install a higher harness bar.