When will the cool looking coupes come out?

[Cooluser23]

So far the only body that came out looks like a bath tub. After seeing the contest winners I've always been a bit disappointed and looking forward to other bodies.

[thestigwins]

I would expect a comment like this from a new member. You on the other hand seem to have over one hundred and fifty posts and still can't seem to grasp the idea that comments like this are inappropriate and disrespectful. I don't think this thread will last very long.

[timmy318]

Sorry for your disappointment. I'm quite happy with the design as are another 250 or so (someone correct me if I'm wrong) other people who have ordered. My 818 is arriving this week and I can't complain with what the 818 has morphed into. If had I to do something I would have to congratulate FFR for what the did revise the 818.

[timmy318]

I would expect a comment like this from a new member. You on the other hand seem to have a few hundred posts and still can't seem to grasp the idea that comments like this are inappropriate and disrespectful. I don't think this thread will last very long.

ditto

[Mitch Wright]

I have been thinking about building a light 300+HP track car for years, thank you FFR for getting it done. The bonus is I think the car looks fantastic.

[JeromeS13]

So far the only body that came out looks like a bath tub. After seeing the contest winners I've always been a bit disappointed and looking forward to other bodies.

It looks like 90% of your posts are attacking the styling of the 818. Looks like you have two options:

1. Don't buy one.
2. Make your own body.

There's really no point in continuously bashing the current design.

[wildbill]

...can't please everyone........I think it's pretty badass myself. Although I keep designing a top for it in my head.....:confused:

[blueafro]

So far the only body that came out looks like a bath tub.

One of the most desirable early Porsches was commonly referred to as the bathtub. Its styling may not have suited everyone, but that didn't stop it from being a fine sports car, and very valuable to this day.

[Frank818]

One of the most desirable early Porsches was commonly referred to as the bathtub. Its styling may not have suited everyone, but that didn't stop it from being a fine sports car, and very valuable to this day.

For which the styling didn't much change over 50 years!

[metalmaker12]

Get my 818 sat morning at 8am, it is stunning from my perspective.

[Kalstar]

Get my 818 sat morning at 8am, it is stunning from my perspective.

oh and about that........

[Mechie3]

Get my 818 sat morning at 8am, it is stunning from my perspective.

Feel free to take a picture of mine before Stewart grabs it. :)

[metalmaker12]

oh and about that........

I will kill you


And Mechie I will do

[doofoo]

What do you expect? It's under 10k for the kit.. LOL.. I wish you had a pre-order in and already paid for it (ahead of me) - I'd buy your kit from you to take the "ugly" thing off your hands sooner than my expected arrival.

[flytosail]

For which the styling didn't much change over 50 years!

They only sold a "few" of them too.

1963 901
13
1964-67 911
10,723
1967-69 9115
5,056
1968-69 911T
6,318
1968 911L
11,610
1969 911E
2,826
1970-71 9117
15,082
1970-71 911E
4,927
1970-71 911S
4,691
1972-73 911T
16,933
1972-73 911E
4,406
1972-73 911S
5,094
1973 911 Carrera RS2.7
1,590
1974 911 Carrera RS3.0
109
1974-77 911
17,260
1974-77 911S
17,124
1974-75 911 Carrera
3,353
1974-77 911 Turbo
3,227
1976-77 911 Carrera
3,691
1978-89 911 Turbo
17,425
1978-83 911SC
57,972
1984-89 911 Carrera
49,629
1984 911SC/RS
20
1987-88 959
283
1989 911 (C3.2, turbo, 964 Carrera 4)
16,488
1990 911��
17,768
1991 911 (non turbo)
20,072
1991-92 911 Turbo
3,808
1991 911 Carrera RS
2,398
1992 911
12,415
1992 911 Turbo S
80
1993 911
7,265
From 1993 911 Turbo 3.6
75
1993 911 Jubilee Model
600
1994 911 (964 & 993)
12,128
1995 911
14,647
1996 911
21,602
1997 911
15,972
1998 911 (993 & 996)
13,783
1999 911
28,040
2000 911
20,979
2001 911
27,275
2002 911
33,013
2003 911
29,547
2004 911
23,146
2005 911 (996 & 997)
28,608
2006 911
36,504
Porsche production volumes for the 911 list the total production by year for this iconic vehicle

[Zodiac]

19738

[AMW1011]

While I agree the OP didn't ask his question in the nicest way, some of these responses are downright childish. Either answer the question, or report the thread and move on.

To the original question, any new body designs from FFR are a long ways a way since the kits only just started shipping. If you think a coupe modification would solve the aesthetics problem you have with the kit, than contact some body shops that specialize in fabrication for some ideas or quotes. It won't cost as much as you probably think. If you don't like the body styling at all, do the same and look into custom body panels, you can make it look like anything you want with enough money.

[jaso]

I read OP in a different way. For me, 818 also "looks like a bathtub" - we get a lot of rain in the summers and I can imagine that the car will act like a bathtub for me :).

When it comes to the aesthetic design, I love it! As soon as it comes a coupe, I will buy one. If I really allow myself to wishful dreaming, I would wish that FFR supplied the coupe with a full cage, not just a plastic roof on existing frame. This would work very nicely on the world market, I would think.

But for now, I will enjoy the rapid sale of the 818 and good cash in for my favorit kit car-company and follow all the build threads.

[flytosail]

So far the only body that came out looks like a bath tub. After seeing the contest winners I've always been a bit disappointed and looking forward to other bodies.

No, he was being rude. If he was worried about rain, he would have asked about where to drill drain holes.

[Niburu]

I too await a cool looking coupe, a nice bolt on hardtop would suffice though.

[BipDBo]

I don't think he was entirely rude. If FFR can't take criticism it won't progress. Part of the original question was about the styling. I like the styling for the most part, and I've heard it looks even better in person. Some of his question, though, was about the coupe and by extension, the weather worthiness of the car. This is a very important concern to many potential customers. I live in Florida. It has rained here about 9 out of 10 days this summer so far. You never know when exactly a storm will come, or how long it will last, so you need to be able to drive home in the rain. I simply could not enjoy owning an 818 in it's current state. Sure they have the soft top option, but it doesn't fold back in a few seconds like an OEM top. If it's like the roadster top, it will be like pitching a tent, a rather complicated one. But even this top has limited use, because the 818 doesn't even seem to be equipped with wipers. You cannot safely drive a car in a downpour without wipers. In some states, you probably can't even register it. I've been a big fan of the 818 project from the start, but this is disappointing. This is basic safety equipment, not even luxuries like heat and air. Why not just skip the headlights too and say it's just a daytime car? Even with this basic equipment missing, the 818 target wasn't quite met even with aftermarket seats and a stripped out interior, likely because the thermoform panels have not yet worked out. Another issue with the top, is that there won't be any way to open the doors when the top and windows are up because there are no door handles (or locks) on the outside. The 818R is what it is; a proper track car that has no need for doors, windshield, etc. Currently, the 818S is an incomplete street car, and it's not good business to ask the customers to piece together basic equipment where FFR left off. If the soft top design were more complete and refined, there may not be much of a need for a coupe. The open 818S design needs some major functional improvement, or a proper coupe model needs to be developed that is equipped with a rainproof roof, wipers, windows (even monofilm would be OK), exterior doors handles, etc., and provisions for installing of or factory option parts for heat and air. Without this, the 818 won't see much more than early adopters in a small niche market filled with potential competitors.

[Mechie3]

It wasn't fully rude, but not exactly constructive criticism either and certainly not a new or unique topic worthy of a new thread.

[Frank818]

Sure they have the soft top option, but it doesn't fold back in a few seconds like an OEM top.

Even if it was within 3sec, you still need windows and a ventilation system. If you roll-up the windows and close the soft top, you need ventilation inside for yourself and to prevent fog to form on windows and windshield.

FFR is not there yet, but I look very forward that day.

[timmy318]

For people who want a coupe/hard-top wait. Just wait. There's been enough posts/threads devoted to the ideas of hard-tops & coupe versions of the 818. No need to create another one here. I ordered the 818 and am confident that FFR will in time develop a hard-top for the existing 818 (or even a coupe) that just bolts on like the '33 HT. Or, if you can't (or won't) wait that long, go to a local body guy and see if you two can't figure something out. I've wanted to learn how to work with fiberglass and now is the chance for me to do it. Also, regarding what BipBDo said about locks, door poppers are the answer. Planning on installing them on my car too. Basically, if you don't like the way the 818 has turned out, either; stop complaining about it and get on building a great car, don't build one, or like me, look at it as a blank slate and create what you want. I see some things that I don't necessarily like about the 818 (rear end for example). So, when I receive my 818, I'm going to be looking at doing something different in the back. The rear end from FFR is great IMHO, it's nice and clean. Do what you want with it. It's easier to cut out glass than it is to put it back in. Also, please realize that this car isn't going to make a very good DD (even though I plan on using it as one) without some mods (mods in IMO that are necessary).


If FFR can't take criticism it won't progress.
People where talking about how the 818's front and rear-end weren't nice/good/pretty or whatever enough. They revised it.


I simply could not enjoy owning an 818 in it's current state. Sure they have the soft top option, but it doesn't fold back in a few seconds like an OEM top. If it's like the roadster top, it will be like pitching a tent, a rather complicated one.
Then don't own an 818 until you think it's right. If you're looking for OEM. Then I would advise not getting a FFR car. They're not exactly built with all the comforts of a Mustang, Porsche, Subaru, etc...


But even this top has limited use, because the 818 doesn't even seem to be equipped with wipers. You cannot safely drive a car in a downpour without wipers. In some states, you probably can't even register it. I've been a big fan of the 818 project from the start, but this is disappointing.
FFR has stated that wipers will be added to the 818 in time. Not right at launch because there won't be any 818's out on the street yet except for a very select few. I'd rather have them concentrate on wheel/tire fitment before implementing the wipers.


This is basic safety equipment, not even luxuries like heat and air. Why not just skip the headlights too and say it's just a daytime car? Even with this basic equipment missing, the 818 target wasn't quite met even with aftermarket seats and a stripped out interior, likely because the thermoform panels have not yet worked out.

Sorry to disappoint. I think that a car with a 300 HP engine weighing 830ish KG is still going to be a little rocket and be more than some of use can handle (safely).


Another issue with the top, is that there won't be any way to open the doors when the top and windows are up because there are no door handles (or locks) on the outside.
Door poppers. Works perfectly!


The open 818S design needs some major functional improvement, or a proper coupe model needs to be developed that is equipped with a rainproof roof, wipers, windows (even monofilm would be OK), exterior doors handles, etc., and provisions for installing of or factory option parts for heat and air. Without this, the 818 won't see much more than early adopters in a small niche market filled with potential competitors.
Like I said, if you're really looking at functionality, a factory made car would be the best way to go. There's some people who will still be DD this thing and that's okay. Hell, I plan on doing that. But, I won't be going out and getting groceries in this thing. This car is more like a a fun toy (okay, not really a toy but for lack of a better word in my vocabulary I'll leave it at that).

[Frank818]

Also, please realize that this car isn't going to make a very good DD (even though I plan on using it as one) without some mods (mods in IMO that are necessary).

For instance?

[carbon fiber]

timmy318 mentioned a top, windows, and windshield wipers as basic upgrades for making the 818 a dd.

[BipDBo]

Then don't own an 818 until you think it's right. If you're looking for OEM. Then I would advise not getting a FFR car. They're not exactly built with all the comforts of a Mustang, Porsche, Subaru, etc...


FFR has stated that wipers will be added to the 818 in time. Not right at launch because there won't be any 818's out on the street yet except for a very select few. I'd rather have them concentrate on wheel/tire fitment before implementing the wipers.



Sorry to disappoint. I think that a car with a 300 HP engine weighing 830ish KG is still going to be a little rocket and be more than some of use can handle (safely).

This car is suppose to appeal to a new generation, one that is used to more amenities. More importantly, it's niche is it's very low completed price. The 818 is not a classic replica. The market for this car is not the show car, the extra car in the garage that you take out only to a car show, perhaps on a trailer, or for a quick spin once a week when the weather is perfect. Potential 818 owners will want to be able to use it fairly regularly.

There's no doubt that it is a bare bones rocket, without the luxuries but it needs to be a fully functional car. I'm not talking about heated seats, a stereo or even heat and AC, but rather basic stuff. FFR should not have released the 818S with a windshield but without wipers. That's just not safe. I don't see how that could be less important than wheel fitment. It could be argued that the 818R is a more practical DD (Ariel Atom style) than the current state of the 818S. If I were building an 818S right now, I'd leave the windshield off and get two helmets until I or FFR figures out the wipers.

They also should not release the soft cover without door handles & locks on the outside or some other provision such as FFR supplied poppers. You should also be able to run up to the car (when its top is up) open the door and get it in without having to disassemble the roof. I know that this is harder than it sounds, so if it can't be done cheaply and easily enough, then development of the coupe should be next.

[timmy318]

For instance?

I'd go with just the basic ride of the car. Not a lot of space to put other things that aren't supposed to be in the cockpit. No windows, wipers, and some other things that you would find on a factory car. I'm not saying it can't be done, but what I'm trying to say is don't be expecting a DD from FFR. If you want it to be a DD, then you're going to have to do some work (well, extra work) yourself.

[timmy318]

This car is suppose to appeal to a new generation, one that is used to more amenities. More importantly, it's niche is it's very low completed price. The 818 is not a classic replica. The market for this car is not the show car, the extra car in the garage that you take out only to a car show, perhaps on a trailer, or for a quick spin once a week when the weather is perfect. Potential 818 owners will want to be able to use it fairly regularly.

There's no doubt that it is a bare bones rocket, without the luxuries but it needs to be a fully functional car. I'm not talking about heated seats, a stereo or even heat and AC, but rather basic stuff. FFR should not have released the 818S with a windshield but without wipers. That's just not safe. I don't see how that could be less important than wheel fitment. It could be argued that the 818R is a more practical DD (Ariel Atom style) than the current state of the 818S. If I were building an 818S right now, I'd leave the windshield off and get two helmets until I or FFR figures out the wipers.

They also should not release the soft cover without door handles & locks on the outside or some other provision such as FFR supplied poppers. You should also be able to run up to the car (when its top is up) open the door and get it in without having to disassemble the roof. I know that this is harder than it sounds, so if it can't be done cheaply and easily enough, then development of the coupe should be next.

All valid points. To all the "new generation" people I've shown pics of the 818 S/R. Their response was generally, "BS that costs under $20K", "Is that a Ferrari, lambo, Porsche, etc..." and a bunch of other comments. I myself am part of the "new generation".

[Darkpiggy's dad]

When I was young, I drove a 62 MG midget for a couple of years as my daily driver. I bought it in 1975. It had wires, heat, wipers and wing vent windows. Someone stole the top after a couple of months, so most of the time I had it I used a tonneau cover. Oh, no radio that I recall. I drove it everywhere, everyday, rain or shine, day or night, summer and winter in Texas. I took the car to college where it was eventually stolen. The 818 is spartan in the same way as that super fun car was, but will handle and perform levels of magnitude better and safer. You will love it unless you feel a real need to wear Armani.

[timmy318]

When I was young, I drove a 62 MG midget for a couple of years as my daily driver. I bought it in 1975. It had wires, heat, wipers and wing vent windows. Someone stole the top after a couple of months, so most of the time I had it I used a tonneau cover. Oh, no radio that I recall. I drove it everywhere, everyday, rain or shine, day or night, summer and winter in Texas. I took the car to college where it was eventually stolen. The 818 is spartan in the same way as that super fun car was, but will handle and perform levels of magnitude better and safer. You will love it unless you feel a real need to wear Armani.

Couldn't have said it better!

[wleehendrick]

A coworker of mine has an MG, type A that is his daily driver. He uses a soft top for our 'winter' and goes topless the rest of the year (just a tonneau cover while parked). I plan to do the same with my 818, but drive the Audi on our few, predictable, rainy days. It will be fine as is most of the time in my climate. Heated seats and a bikini top will extend that to near year-round usability. I may install wipers 'just in case', but will probably be fine with:
19752

[Niburu]

Door poppers. Works perfectly!

like the windsheild wipers, many states require some sort of exterior door handles

[timmy318]

like the windsheild wipers, many states require some sort of exterior door handles

Wasn't aware of that! I knew that some states required WW but not an exterior door handle. Do you or anybody else think they would consider like an exterior button as a exterior entry device???? Reason I'm asking is I'm planning on installing an "emergency" button which I can press if the poppers doesn't work properly or remote doesn't work so I can still gain access to the car.

[Niburu]

Wasn't aware of that! I knew that some states required WW but not an exterior door handle. Do you or anybody else think they would consider like an exterior button as a exterior entry device???? Reason I'm asking is I'm planning on installing an "emergency" button which I can press if the poppers doesn't work properly or remote doesn't work so I can still gain access to the car.

the emergency button might be sufficient, I believe the thoughtis to give first responders a chance of easy access to the interior of the car in case of an accident

I was thinking of using a first gen Miata latch, small, stylish, and lockable - and readily available

[BipDBo]

like the windsheild wipers, many states require some sort of exterior door handles

What if there is no roof or even no doors? Is there some guy out there driving an Ariel Atom with a glued on door handle?

[bstuke]

Get my 818 sat morning at 8am, it is stunning from my perspective.You my friend, are worse than that Camel on the GEICO commercialll... Congrats.

And to answer the coupe question in my typical no nonsense pragmatic way:

Never.

[timmy318]

Getting mine Sunday morning!!!!!!!!!!! Just got the call from Stewart!!!

[Niburu]

What if there is no roof or even no doors? Is there some guy out there driving an Ariel Atom with a glued on door handle?

OK "door opening mechanism", and in some states cars like the Atom are just plain illegal as a street vehicle

[PhyrraM]

.... If FFR can't take criticism it won't progress. ......

It doesn't seem that it's FFR that can't take criticism. It seems more like it's the members of these forums that can't take criticism on FFRs behalf.


The simple fact is that this is the first non-replica that FFR has done. (The GTM is a GT40 replic-mod). This is uncharted waters for FFR. Not since the MK1 Roadster has FFR ever gone into anything with no more than an idea (a good one though). They have to figure out this new demographic.

Keep in mind that the old guard FFR guys that are building the first few cars, providing most of the current feedback to FFR, and contributing tons of posts to these forums ARE NOT representative of the eventual 818 the customer base. But they are currently the best thing that FFR has at it disposal to go off of. After all the 'old guys' get their 818s in the next year or so, that's when the "real" feedback will start.....when new, not previously FFR related, customers NEED to be satisfied or the 818 will stop selling.

I think it may be slow going on 'upgrades', but I also think that Dave and Jim are up to the task. I believe that for the 818S things like wipers, basic defroster/heater, inner door skins (to match the beautiful dash panel), and proper hood latches/hinges (not pins) will end up being a requirement of this 'new demographic'.

[Frank818]

I think it may be slow going on 'upgrades', but I also think that Dave and Jim are up to the task. I believe that for the 818S things like wipers, basic defroster/heater, inner door skins (to match the beautiful dash panel), and proper hood latches/hinges (not pins) will end up being a requirement of this 'new demographic'.

And other gel coat colors. :)

So it's a matter of waiting for these basics to be offered. As for me since I need to find a buyer for my car and it ain't an easy one to sell at an "ok" price, I'm sure FFR will come up with version 10 of the 818 before I can place my order.... lolll

[alpine227]

This car is suppose to appeal to a new generation, one that is used to more amenities. More importantly, it's niche is it's very low completed price. The 818 is not a classic replica. The market for this car is not the show car, the extra car in the garage that you take out only to a car show, perhaps on a trailer, or for a quick spin once a week when the weather is perfect. Potential 818 owners will want to be able to use it fairly regularly.

There's no doubt that it is a bare bones rocket, without the luxuries but it needs to be a fully functional car. I'm not talking about heated seats, a stereo or even heat and AC, but rather basic stuff. FFR should not have released the 818S with a windshield but without wipers. That's just not safe. I don't see how that could be less important than wheel fitment. It could be argued that the 818R is a more practical DD (Ariel Atom style) than the current state of the 818S. If I were building an 818S right now, I'd leave the windshield off and get two helmets until I or FFR figures out the wipers.

They also should not release the soft cover without door handles & locks on the outside or some other provision such as FFR supplied poppers. You should also be able to run up to the car (when its top is up) open the door and get it in without having to disassemble the roof. I know that this is harder than it sounds, so if it can't be done cheaply and easily enough, then development of the coupe should be next.

The generation you speak of can buy a kia forte and get their ww and door handles. Its a road legal race car built in your garage for 15k. Most people with the means to purchase one are of the generation that grasp you don't get everything you want without and endless supply of money or tools and time. If you don't like it buy something else or make it they way you like it. You can boo hoo elsewhere.

[bstuke]

It doesn't seem that it's FFR that can't take criticism. It seems more like it's the members of these forums that can't take criticism on FFRs behalf.We are pretty protective of our FFR family, take it for what it is worth. We have mourned the loss of members spouses and helped by doing things like delivering groceries to those members. We have collected money and donated to members that needed money. We have fed the entire staff at FFR for Thanksgiving, and had pizza delivered just because.

We are the voice of FFR...

[Wayne Presley]

We are pretty protective of our FFR family, take it for what it is worth. We have mourned the loss of members spouses and helped by doing things like delivering groceries to those members. We have collected money and donated to members that needed money. We have fed the entire staff at FFR for Thanksgiving, and had pizza delivered just because.

We are the voice of FFR...

Well said...

[metalmaker12]

+1 I agree well said

[PhyrraM]

We are pretty protective of our FFR family, take it for what it is worth. .........We are the voice of FFR...

Yes, I understand that. I didn't say I saw it as a negative- quite the opposite - I wish more companies still valued their customers as FFR does. Dave is very vocal about how proud he is of this particular relationship. I was just pointing out that it is the forum members that are vocal against FFR criticism. FRR itself would never have gotten this far if it couldn't take criticism and turn it into improvements.

The introduction of the 818 will change the size, and particularly the flavor, of the family in major ways. Hopefully everyone is ready..................

[wildbill]

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.”
― Winston Churchill



....not directed to any one individual.....just something to ponder.

[blueafro]

You my friend, are worse than that Camel on the GEICO commercialll...

That camel is awesome.

[07FIREBLADE]

"Its hump day"

[timmy318]

"Its hump day"
Enjoy.... I know I have!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kWBhP0EQ1lA

[WIS89]

Huuuummmmp Daaaaaay, YEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!

Very funny commercial. The voice of the camel is just perfect. My boys' think it is hilarious; playing it on YouTube all the time...

Regards,

Steve

[tirod]

Keep in mind that the old guard FFR guys that are building the first few cars, providing most of the current feedback to FFR, and contributing tons of posts to these forums ARE NOT representative of the eventual 818 the customer base. But they are currently the best thing that FFR has at it disposal to go off of. After all the 'old guys' get their 818s in the next year or so, that's when the "real" feedback will start.....when new, not previously FFR related, customers NEED to be satisfied or the 818 will stop selling.

Old guard has money and spends it. The eventual "818" customer isn't twentysomethings with $10k and a spare Subaru laying around in the two car garage. Those are a rare minority - who would just as well buy something new. They have new responsibilities, too - starting a family, buying a house, kid on the way, moving because their employer reassigns them every few years to a new market area.

The old guard had the exact same issues - when you are under 35 and the career track, family, and finding a place to raise them are all unsettled, the disposable income isn't blown on a toy to play with on weekends.

Way off base with assumptions about the demographic.

Factory Five very well does know what it's doing with their market - the customers who do have money to spend above and beyond basic needs and responsibilities. You have to work long enough to ensure financial stability so that can happen, or disposable income gets snapped up by emergencies, loss of a job, divorce, disaster. The old guard is changing, yes - the boomer will move on out of the market base in a short 10 to 15 years, the new F5 customer will have been "raised" on FWD, turbos, EFI, and likely 65% will have owned a foreign car - not Detroit Iron.

Those looking for exotic fantasy looks and bargain bin pricing are, bluntly, not seeing things with the maturity or experience that the average F5 customer has to have to afford a kit. That still doesn't prepare them for the reality of actually driving one - like the most ignored market on kit forums is driver training, exactly what Shelby American offered from the earliest days.

Once the dust settles and the 818 shows it's taillights on the tracks of America, what it looks like will be just as secondary as it was to Carroll in the day - a British copy of the 1954 Ferrari Barchetta, ironic as that may be. What came next, however, WAS the cool looking Coupe. Still is in many eyes, that body style and it's details influence the market today.

I suppose it could look like a hardtop Elise, but I doubt that would be a good direction.

[bromikl]

Old guard has money and spends it. The eventual "818" customer isn't twentysomethings with $10k and a spare Subaru laying around in the two car garage. Those are a rare minority - who would just as well buy something new. They have new responsibilities, too...

I think you're making some unnecessary assumptions about 818 buyers. Sure, some of them are previous FFR customers. And many of them are very familiar with modding and racing Subarus and WRX's. The second group (and their friends) are going to see the opportunity to own a $15,000 car that beats the pants off 99% of all other cars in the world. (Not to mention compete realistically with the other 1%.) And $15,000 isn't that much for a kid living at home with a few part time jobs and and a couple summers' savings (or accumulated automotive investments.)

I've met 20 or so of these 'new guard' folks at a local NASOIC meetup. Of them, there were none over 40. Most were under 30, and several weren't old enough to buy a beer. They all owned their cars and many drove them as DD's.

Yes, they're going to want a top, and it will come in time. But please don't make these types of assumptions about 818 buyers.

[Niburu]

I suspect once these cars start getting seen performing at local autocrosses or just being driven around town, there is going to be alot of demand for NA budget builds. The $10k price point is half the reason I'm interested in this.

[PhyrraM]

................Way off base with assumptions about the demographic.

............... The old guard is changing, yes - the boomer will move on out of the market base in a short 10 to 15 years, the new F5 customer will have been "raised" on FWD, turbos, EFI, and likely 65% will have owned a foreign car - not Detroit Iron.............

Wow. I never said anything about the details of the demographics. I never said one side was right or wrong. I only said that the demographic was changing. That was a fairly long winded and confrontational way to say the same thing.

[longislandwrx]

I like turtles

[timmy318]

I like turtles

Who would win..... A turtle or an ice bear????:p

[longislandwrx]

Who would win..... A turtle or an ice bear????:p

42.

[wildbill]

What's the price of turnip these days?

[Nuul]

Wow, this thread derailed quickly. I come here every few days hoping that maybe, just maybe, today will be the day some info about the coupe will be released. Back to waiting.

[Silvertop]

Wow, this thread derailed quickly. I come here every few days hoping that maybe, just maybe, today will be the day some info about the coupe will be released. Back to waiting.

I think you may be waiting for a fair while. I gotta believe that FFR will be focused mostly on continued development of the V.1 818 Roadster for the foreseeable future. Thermoplastic Panels, Windshield wipers, HVAC, Soft Top will probably all happen first. Coupe would probably follow later. Just my opinion. Though that and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

[Frank818]

Hey @Silvertop, I read a few times about those thermoplastic panels. For the inner door panels?

[Silvertop]

Hey @Silvertop, I read a few times about those thermoplastic panels. For the inner door panels?

FFR's goal is to make the body itself out of thermoplastic panels rather than fiberglass. I think it is why we only have one color available right now. When they finally get the thermoplastic panels perfected, we will probably suddenly have multiple colors available. Personally, I think I'd rather have the fiberglass. But that's just me.

Is it possible that they are also planning on making the currently missing interior door panels out thermoplastic as well? I hadn't thought of that. Could be......!

[Frank818]

Ok. I wonder if it's lighter than fiberglass. And if it's easy to modify, as we know fiberglass isn't that hard with the right product and heat gun.

As long as the engine is not made of thermoplastic, I'm fine. loll

[PhyrraM]

Think motorcycle fairings and ATV fenders.

[bwwooster]

Here's another vote for fiberglass over thermoplastic for the body material. Ever tried to repair broken motorcycle bodywork? A lot of dropped bikes in the late '80s/early '90s got totaled by just the replacement cost of body and fairing panels.

Also: I've long wondered whether a Miata windshield (or at least its header rail) and top mechanism could have been fitted to FFR's old Spyder GT. The entire folding-top arrangement just unbolts from points just behind the top of the doors. Hmmm...

[Xusia]

Think motorcycle fairings and ATV fenders.

I sure hope more like motorcycle fairings than ATV fenders. ATV fenders are too flexible to achieve proper fitment, and would most likely look very cheap from a paint perspective.


Here's another vote for fiberglass over thermoplastic for the body material. Ever tried to repair broken motorcycle bodywork?

Yep! And it was no problem. In fact, I found my motorcycle fairings exceeding easy to repair. I've never repaired fiberglass, so I can't compare, but the thought of resins & cloth & the mess SOUNDS way harder to me! A little plastic weld for strength and to hold it together properly (tightly) - the crack all but completely disappears.

I have been riding bikes with thermoplastic panels for a long time, and I have absolutely ZERO reservations about using them on my 818. In fact, I sincerely hope they move to that process before my kit is ready. I see a lot of advantages...

[Frank818]

Say that again? How do you repair a bike's fairing?
What material and tool you need?

[C.Plavan]

I would like Thermoplastic on my 818R. That way I can "Bounce" off stuff at the track :)

I just hope it does not deform going 150mph+ :)

[carbon fiber]

you can repair plastic panels with plastic welding. the people who want to make body mods will be glad they are coming in fiberglass.

[Frank818]

you can repair plastic panels with plastic welding. the people who want to make body mods will be glad they are coming in fiberglass.

I'll do some search on "plastic welding". tnx

So if I understand your last sentence, fiberglass is easier to repair/mod than thermoplastic?

[carbon fiber]

you can't really add to the plastic panels, only repair cracks. you can pretty much do whatever you want with fiberglass. I know some people don't like it but it's a really great material to work with when doing mods.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Polypropylene is highly resistant to solvents, so a good structurally stable chemical bond is very difficult to achieve. Plastic welding, on the other hand, done with the same material, is easy and can match the strength of the original piece. I've actually welded a cracked poly water trough with a torch, a horseshoe, a knife and a piece of plastic cut off the rim. Worked great, did it in a frozen field, looks like a big plastic scar, but could be planed smooth as new.

[Xusia]

Plastic is easier to repair (IMO), but fiberglass is definitely easier to mod because it can be done by hand. You can create whatever shape you want/need. Plastic requires machinery. (On a side note, 3D printing is up and coming and holds the promise of being able to create plastic parts at home, though it is a different process than thermoforming)

[JAubin]

A thermoformed panel (dependent on material of course) should be far more impact resistant than fiberglass, as it's much less brittle. I'll echo that modding fiberglass is much easier in my experience. Most 3D printers are still very small scale right now...good to use to create molds for rubber parts, or test out a design, and the materials and process is good enough that I can design snap features that I can test out (ie the layers don't separate or snap when used as intended, huge difference from older technologies) We have two FDM (fused deposition modeling) and one that uses Photopolymers and a UV light, so more of a really fancy inkjet with a z-axis table. These are mostly able to do about a 12" cubic part though, so nothing very large and while pretty strong they're generally not great parts cosmetically. Definitely awesome for test-fitting and having something in your hands (100X better than looking at it on a screen I think we can all agree) We also have a shopbot which is a 3D Router that can mill a 4'X8' sheet, but is really for wood and plastic primarily. I may use that to cut out some foam molds to layup fiberglass on to try out some interior console ideas.

[Frank818]

Yeah, so we'll 3D print ourselves a carbon fiber body. :)
Oh right, that's not plastic, but anyway you get the point. :)

[JAubin]

Have you seen the Carbon weaving Loom that's used to make a continuous CF part? Lexus uses one for the LFA A-Pillar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-OXRgn4LRw
Luckily if FFR ever decides they want to offer a really high $ body I would imagine they could reuse most of their glass layup tooling and just use CF and epoxy. There's definitely more to it
as using a thinner part and a totally new layup isn't a 5 minute changeover, but it's certainly something we can daydream about! :) CF Hardtop option :D <--sorta on-topic?

[Mechie3]

I figured this is the best place to put this. A ford GT kit car at Toledo this weekend had doors that could work for a coupe. It's a combo door/t-top in one. It might simplify windows and window sealing and gives clearance to get in and out. You'd need two doors though, one for the roadster setup and one for the hardtop. My brother is a Jeep guy and they swap doors in and out every season.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/mechie3/IMG_20130728_114119_310.jpg (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/mechie3/media/IMG_20130728_114119_310.jpg.html)

[timmy318]

I figured this is the best place to put this. A ford GT kit car at Toledo this weekend had doors that could work for a coupe. It's a combo door/t-top in one. It might simplify windows and window sealing and gives clearance to get in and out. You'd need two doors though, one for the roadster setup and one for the hardtop. My brother is a Jeep guy and they swap doors in and out every season.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/mechie3/IMG_20130728_114119_310.jpg (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/mechie3/media/IMG_20130728_114119_310.jpg.html)

I like the idea, but it looks like the t-top would get in the way of getting in/out of the vehicle.

[Kalstar]

It's coming. Once the initial push of orders subside, F5R will do what they always to, modify, change and create further demand.

BTW, I'm 41 and a returning "Old Guard" F5R'er only own Italian and German imports. The Subi stuff is all brand new to me, so I am either in the majority or minority, my guess the average owner of the 818 will be 35-55.

[Mechie3]

I like the idea, but it looks like the t-top would get in the way of getting in/out of the vehicle.

Perhaps, but it's less in the way than a full roof. The driver/owner of that car had to be in his 70's. He seemed to get in and out just fine even with the thin middle section.

[Xusia]

I think you're onto to something Mechie3. Including the window surround as part of the door itself would solve many issues. Personally, I wouldn't mind changing the doors too much, though if it winds up being a good location for speakers it could interesting...