THE Audio System Thread

[wleehendrick]

I wanted to start a thread specific to audio systems. This has been discussed a bit here and there, but I think the topic deserves it's own home. I know many will not be installing anything, especially the R builders, but I want a basic, good sounding stereo in my 818S. I've done some research and wanted to share my plans and spur some conversation.

Opinions on audio are varied... some people are more than satisfied by a base factory system, while others spend more than an entire 818 kit! So, first, I wanted to provide a baseline for my expectations. In my current Z, I have the following: an Alpine 9857 headunit, JL Audio 300/4 amp, XR650 components in the front doors, and a 10W0 sub in the trunk. I have door pods for the woofers and a small (~0.5 cu ft) corner loaded box for the sub. This system is far from a monster, but I think it was well thought out and reasonably priced. After tuning, it sounds good... really good.

For my 818, I want to keep in the spirit of simple and lightweight and install an appropriate system, yet still have decent sound quality in an open car. Therefore, my plans are to use a single DIN digital media headunit, such an Alpine UTE-42 or Sony DSX-200X:
19410

I have no need for navigation, DVD, phone integration, etc... Just a good sounding source from an iPod or USB stick.

For amplification, the headunit needs to be supplemented, but I don't want a big heavy multi-channel amp. I think an Alpine power pack is ideal; small and light, and an honest 90 Watts per channel when bridged into 2-channel operation:
19409

For speakers, I will be using components. Looking at the 818's door/kick panels, finding a good location for the woofer could be a challenge. Ideally, I would use 6 1/2" or 5 1/4", but may have to go with 4" woofers. I don't think this will be finalized until a get my kit and start messing around with location possibilities.

The really tricky part will be where to put (or even use) a subwoofer. I would not consider a typical large/heavy MDF sub box in an 818, but I do want something to round out the bottom end. Right now the two options I'm considering are a slim underseat unit like a Soundstream USB.8A:
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or a tube like a Bazooka if an adequate location can be found.

So, what are your thoughts and plans?

[RM1SepEx]

I use kenwood din receivers but have similar plans. I listen to my phones playlist or a usb stick in all of my vehicles... My experience with my 3 Miatas is that a set of rear speakers in the headrests will really help.

[Xusia]

It's great to meet someone else who thinks (in terms of audio) as I do! Great research.

My plan is similar, but if possible (read: if the sound quality is acceptable enough) I want to use a tablet as the head unit. I'll already have that for navigation and other stuff, so I might as well. I have a few tricks up my sleeve, so we'll see.

As for sub, I'm currently planning to go with an 8", most likely mounted in the, I'll call it the "front trunk" (for lack of a better word). Obviously this approach dictates a ported enclosure, which does require more space, but at this point I'm skeptical I'll be able to use that space for anything else useful. Sub will almost certainly be a JL Audio.

Another option for sub placement would be a sealed box behind the driver's seat. For most folks this would require the wookie gas tank option, so range would be affected somewhat.

Final option is up underneath the passenger side of the dash. Not sure there's room - time will tell. If there is, this would preclude the option of a glove box.

I've been a huge fan of Alpine in the past, but the most recent deck I bought (2 years ago) has left me very soured on them. And they were completely unresponsive to my complaints. So I plan on looking at other options first if I decide to go with a traditional head unit.

Anyway, good stuff! Keep the ideas coming. :)

[Mechie3]

Does anyone make a really simple audio system that consists of a plug for a USB/stero jack and something to drive some speakers? That's all I really want. I don't use CD's much and would run everything from my phone.

[AZPete]

I guess I'm more like Mechie3 than the guys who are talking about a premium system because I just want nice sound, not the best sound. And I want a Nav system, Ipod input, . . . . geez, is there any reason I shouldn't just make a mount for an Ipad? It would do anything an expensive car audio unit does if wired up to in-car speakers, wouldn't it? And, I could make the mount removable so I could take the Ipad with me into a restaurant to check email, etc. Stupid idea? What am I missing here?
Pete

[wleehendrick]

My experience with my 3 Miatas is that a set of rear speakers in the headrests will really help.

No insult intended, but I cringe at the thought of headrest speakers ;). I have a background in 2 channel hi-fi, and IMHO, stereo content should be reproduced by two speakers, in front of the listener. Rear speakers have a place in surround sound, when the content has been mixed appropriately. In an open top car, headrest speakers may help the audibility of inadequate front speakers, but they destroy the proper stereo construct, and the quality of the drivers is usually pretty poor. A good, single, set of component speakers (so the woofers and tweeters can be properly located) with adequate power can't be beat.

[rjh2pd]

I plan on just a simple head unit, with usb/aux input. where are you guys planning on putting speakers? ive thought about the humps behind the seats, doors, and top of dash (recessed), with a small underseat sub either under a seat, or under/behind the dash somewhere. Also for people talking about a tablet for the headunit and using it for navigation, wont that require another data plan through a carrier?

[wleehendrick]

It's great to meet someone else who thinks (in terms of audio) as I do! Great research.

Thanks... look forward to trading ideas.


As for sub, I'm currently planning to go with an 8", most likely mounted in the, I'll call it the "front trunk" (for lack of a better word). Obviously this approach dictates a ported enclosure, which does require more space, but at this point I'm skeptical I'll be able to use that space for anything else useful. Sub will almost certainly be a JL Audio.

Yes, the 'frunck' is an option, but I'd rather avoid a custom enclosure, as they're typically made out of MDF (heavy). If I can fit a Bazooka tube in front and port it to the passenger compartment, that might work. The cylindrical shape provides a great deal of output for the size; the long port lowers the resonance giving better low end, and weighs less than a rectangular or odd shaped box. Some monster home theater subs have been built in a cylindrical form facter; it's pretty much the best shape for an enclosed subwoofer, in terms of weight.

[wleehendrick]

Does anyone make a really simple audio system that consists of a plug for a USB/stero jack and something to drive some speakers? That's all I really want. I don't use CD's much and would run everything from my phone.

The Sony head-unit I mentioned is only a bit over $100. It provides a nice interface to the menu structure of the iPod, phone or memory stick, and a readily accessible volume control, so it's worth it to me to keep a traditional headunit in the system.

How about this:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_158DSX210X/Sony-DSX-S210X.html?tp=5684

I may go with it. If you're not looking for too much output, you could use the amps in it (alhtough I'll add an external amp). Add a pir of speakers and you're all set.

[wleehendrick]

I guess I'm more like Mechie3 than the guys who are talking about a premium system because I just want nice sound, not the best sound. And I want a Nav system, Ipod input, . . . . geez, is there any reason I shouldn't just make a mount for an Ipad? It would do anything an expensive car audio unit does if wired up to in-car speakers, wouldn't it? And, I could make the mount removable so I could take the Ipad with me into a restaurant to check email, etc. Stupid idea? What am I missing here?
Pete

That could certainly work, and could sound great (with good speakers). Don't forget that you would need a power amp, like the little Alpine I mentioned.

[flytosail]

Ipod and earbuds. Still legal in NH. Alternate idea would be just to go from the Ipod to an amp to speakers. Works great in my sailboat.

[FMacAUlay3]

Why use a head unit in 2013? Everyone now just use there phones or ipods as music sources. You need to look into a signal processor such as a Rockford Fosgate 3sixty.3. This rids any head unit in your dash or other locations. With this device you run all your amps to it and then have two options for music sources. These options are you can stream music from a device through Bluetooth or you can hook a iPod dock or other device dock.

[wleehendrick]

where are you guys planning on putting speakers? ive thought about the humps behind the seats, doors, and top of dash (recessed),.

It's tough to say where they'll fit. On top of the dash, you'll probably limited to 3-4" drivers. My plan is to use component speakers and mount the crossovers in the center console. I'll play around with tweeter location for the best imaging, either on top of the dash, or the upper/forward corners of the door panels. The woofers will be tricky, since the lower/forward corner of the door panel is blocked by a frame member:

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I hope to find a good location for a 5 1/4" woofer, but I may have to make a 'pod' for it. I have these door pods in my Z:

19413

and they image great with the tweeters in the sail panels. But this spot isn't an option in the 818. Perhaps a kick panel, but this would require some fabrication, and may intrude too much in the footwell.

I would not mount them on the humps, my Z has rear speakers in a similar location, and I simply don't understand why people bother upgrading them like this:

19414

The acoustics in this location (behind the seat head-rest) are horrible. I left my factory speakers in place and don't use them. As I mentioned before, the best results come from one decent pair of speakers mounted in front of you.


with a small underseat sub either under a seat, or under/behind the dash somewhere.

That's my plan as well, just don't know where what will fit yet.

[wleehendrick]

Why use a head unit in 2013? Everyone now just use there phones or ipods as music sources. You need to look into a signal processor such as a Rockford Fosgate 3sixty.3.


Alternate idea would be just to go from the Ipod to an amp to speakers. Works great in my sailboat.

I don't disagree, and call me a Luddite, but I still want a head unit! :p

Even though 100% of my listening is from an iPod or USB stick, and I use an outboard amp. The headunit provides a nice control panel for volume and music selection. That's worth $120 to me!

[rjh2pd]

I hope to find a good location for a 5 1/4" woofer, but I may have to make a 'pod' for it. I have these door pods in my Z:

19413

It looks like there is a spot for it here without taking up much if any of the leg room.
19416
So the speakers behind the headrest wont sound very good? The reason i brought it up was because i rode in a miata that had some there and it seemed like it was a good idea, but i don't have any idea about the quality.

[RM1SepEx]

Why have a head unit? Can you say... sports, news etc...

I'm old school and having a radio sometimes is good. The majority of the time its MP3, 4 files etc... Its nice to have more than 1 source

As far as headrest speakers, you use them to fill in the holes caused by wind noise... its easy to balance the f/r speakers to make them a nice subtle filler in the music\

I'm pretty sure my kenwood will be powerful enough, I have 3 in Miatas with the same wind noise issues

besides I'm 54 & I don't crank it like I used to... No need to spend more than $400 or so to get a pretty good sounding setup. Besides a bunch of time will be spent with it off to hear the engine!

[wleehendrick]

It looks like there is a spot for it here without taking up much if any of the leg room.

Agreed, that's the location I referred to for putting in a kick panel. I'll require a little fab work, but should sound good if it fits.


So the speakers behind the headrest wont sound very good? The reason i brought it up was because i rode in a miata that had some there and it seemed like it was a good idea, but i don't have any idea about the quality.

Not in my opinion, for several reasons... First of which is that two channel stereo is mixed and meant to be heard with speakers placed in front of you. If background music is all you're after, placement isn't critical, but I'm a bit of a purist! Even neglecting the stereo image, high frequencies are line-of-site and are blocked by the headrest; you'll have no treble. In addition, your pinna (outer ear) colors the sound, and stereo is mixed assuming the speakers are in front of you (good synthesized surround systems adjust the frequency response of the rear channels due to this effect; it's also one of the acoustic effects your brain uses to localize sound)

[wleehendrick]

Why have a head unit? Can you say... sports, news etc...

I'm old school and having a radio sometimes is good. The majority of the time its MP3, 4 files etc... Its nice to have more than 1 source

Agreed, that's why I want a head unit. If you don't need a large screen or disc player, you can get a lot of functionality pretty cheap from an 'entry level' headunit.


As far as headrest speakers, you use them to fill in the holes caused by wind noise... its easy to balance the f/r speakers to make them a nice subtle filler in the music\


For the reason's I've mentioned, two good speakers up front with more power is my preferred solution, but if you have good experience with headrest speakers, go for it! (as long as they're stereo speakers in each headrest, not one behind each seat, ugh).


No need to spend more than $400 or so to get a pretty good sounding setup.

I'm targeting around $400 (before a sub-woofer); that should be plenty for a good sounding 2-channel system.


Besides a bunch of time will be spent with it off to hear the engine!

Yup... no music sounds as sweet as a perfectly executed heel-and-toe downshift!

[nikbrewer]

If I was going to build a light weight system for the 818, this is what I would use

Input - Use phone with blue tooth via belkin Bluetooth adapter http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=808836&is=REG&A=details&Q= 25$ 0 LBS
Speaker Amp - Rockford fosgate PBR300.2 2 ch amp http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_43424_Rockford-Fosgate-PBR300X2.html 150$ 2.5 LBS
Sub Amp - Rockford Fosgate PBR300.1 1 ch amp http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_34759_Rockford-Fosgate-PBR300X1.html 150$ 2.5 LBS
Speakers - Rockford Fosgate T252s 5.25" components http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_24263_Rockford-Fosgate-T252-S.html 170$ 5 LBS
Sub - MB Quart RPL 204 8" shallow mount sub http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_44463_MB-Quart-RLP204.html 60$ 5 LBS
Sub Box - custom .3 cubic feet box built from 5/8" Baltic Birch plywood 50$ 5 LBS

Total 605$ 20 LBS

[RM1SepEx]

yes headrest speakers must be left and right in each headrest. A ton of the music gets lost in the open air if you only have speakers below the door line of the car... tweeters in the windshield supports can help fill in the soundfield

As far as music is mixed for stereo... an open car is an abomination sonic wise... best we can do is attempt to get some sort of an environment to capture the music. It will never be any sort of a suitable "space" like you can get in a padded, closed room or a car.

[Xusia]

I too am in the 2 good, well powered speakers up front camp. I think that will be plenty and sound good. I also want a sub, which is going to mean a total cost of more than $400. I'm kind of a power whore too, so there's a good chance I'll spend $400 on just the amp. :rolleyes:


Does anyone make a really simple audio system that consists of a plug for a USB/stero jack and something to drive some speakers? That's all I really want. I don't use CD's much and would run everything from my phone.

As was stated, a cheap head unit (a.k.a. a stereo) is what does that function. I've seen them for less than $50.


. . . . geez, is there any reason I shouldn't just make a mount for an Ipad? It would do anything an expensive car audio unit does if wired up to in-car speakers, wouldn't it? And, I could make the mount removable so I could take the Ipad with me into a restaurant to check email, etc. Stupid idea? What am I missing here?
Pete

IMO, not a stupid idea at all. This is my plan. I would only go with a traditional stereo if the sound quality isn't good enough (NOTE: I'm a bit of an audio snob, so what doesn't pass muster for me, might be perfectly fine for others! LOL). The main issue is converting the headphone output to amplifier input (using a preamp). Regardless of what I win up doing in this area, it WILL be posted in my build thread.


Also for people talking about a tablet for the headunit and using it for navigation, wont that require another data plan through a carrier?

Not at all. None of my tablets have data plans and they all work just fine! I would make it removable, but for normal updates I can get wi-fi in the driveway. I can also remove the SD Card and update the music. If I wanted to listen to youtube or Pandora on the road, I can use my phone as a hot spot. Google maps can cache data, so no worries there either. Also, for those that don't know, Android tablets and phone have FM radio capability as well. It really does do all the things I'd need, it's big (navigation), touchscreen, etc. What more is there to want, really? :)


Why use a head unit in 2013? Everyone now just use there phones or ipods as music sources. You need to look into a signal processor such as a Rockford Fosgate 3sixty.3. This rids any head unit in your dash or other locations. With this device you run all your amps to it and then have two options for music sources. These options are you can stream music from a device through Bluetooth or you can hook a iPod dock or other device dock.

The 3sixty.3 is useful for multiple physical sources or you really don't want something in your dash. But I just can't see too many people really needing that. It's expensive too. For half the price you can get a decent head unit. For the full price you can get a double-din head unit with nav. All with multi-source capability, bluetooth streaming, iPod connectors, etc.


Why have a head unit? Can you say... sports, news etc...

See above. Tablets can do all those things. Well, not Ipads (sorry Apple fans...), but any decent tablet (Ha! <-- JOKE people!). AM radio or cassette tape is about all they can't do. I mean, of course they can't play a physical CD, but who can't or doesn't rip their music to an electronic device these days anyway?


--------------------
WHEW! That was a LOT of responses! :)

[wleehendrick]

yes headrest speakers must be left and right in each headrest. A ton of the music gets lost in the open air if you only have speakers below the door line of the car... tweeters in the windshield supports can help fill in the soundfield

As far as music is mixed for stereo... an open car is an abomination sonic wise... best we can do is attempt to get some sort of an environment to capture the music. It will never be any sort of a suitable "space" like you can get in a padded, closed room or a car.

Actually, an open car is a better environment for accurate music reproduction than a closed car (at least standing still). A closed car, with more reflective surfaces near the speakers and your ear is just about the worst acoustic environment due the all the near reflections. Here's a graphic which shows the effect of reflections as a function of time delay and relative intensity:

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In a small space, all the reflections do is create tonal changes and image shift. An open car avoids much of this... The music 'lost in the open air' is a a good thing. Concerts halls use reflected sound to create ambiance, but this only works in a large space (those 'useful reflections' need time delay from a long propagation distance) Ever see a recording studio? The heavy use of open-cell acoustic foam on the walls is used to absorb sound and reduce unwanted reflections.

A topless car has this advantage for free. The flip-side however, is without the reflected sound, you have to provide more power (and need more robust speakers to handle it) since you predominately only hear the direct sound from your speakers. Once at high speed, with a greater noise floor from wind and road noise, however, you need even more power to overcome the ambient noise, and at some point the noise floor is simply too high for good music reproduction. But at that point, your attention should be on your driving!

Now I understand why you've had good luck with headrest speakers in your Miatas... The location so close to the ear provides an very efficient path for nearly all direct sound, letting you get decent volume without a huge amount of power. You can get a decent stereo effect with modest components.

The disadvantage of headrest speakers, however, is the size and location. The don't image well, being behind your ears, and small (3") full-range drivers are incapable of producing any real bass or upper treble. Even with a subwoofer taking over the low bass (<100Hz), there will be a hole in the frequency response in the mid bass. This the issue that plagues small sub/satellite home theater systems like Bose.

All that being said, if you're not a super critical listener like Xusia and I, this is certainly a viable solution.

However, for the most accurate reproduction, a quality component system with the woofer and tweeter properly located in front with plenty of power (and supplemented with a sub, of course) will give the best results.


P.S. Happy 4th, everyone!

[Turboguy]

For my sound system, I'm just gonna throw an EZ30 in the trunk.

[bnr32jason]

For my sound system, I'm just gonna throw an EZ30 in the trunk.

I've been going back and forth with this. As great as an EZ30 (or even an EJ20/25) will sound, if I decide to make the 818 a daily driver (which may very well happen) I'm going to have to have some kind of audio system.

I've considered everything from a simple portable bluetooth speaker sitting in the passenger seat all the way to actual "systems" like these guys are discussing.I'm not overly concerned with weight but also not looking for a system that's going to rattle body panels either. Just something basic.

[RM1SepEx]

Actually, an open car is a better environment for accurate music reproduction than a closed car (at least standing still).

IMNSHO Too much theory, no practical application. A car is to be driven, add 50-60 mph wind and an open car is near impossible acoustically. No windows, absolute worst case scenario.

I have no plans to sit in my parked 818 and listen to music while seated in it. That is far outside of its design parameters. I just want to be able to listen to my mp3s or a ball game while traveling back roads, a sportsbike with 4 wheels.

In a closed car a system can be designed with soft surfaces and electronically manipulated to form a very good sound stage for music, Many high end auto mfg partner with "experts" such as Bose or Altec Lansing, JBL for this purpose

I do admit my audiophile phase has gone by... :D

[wleehendrick]

IMNSHO Too much theory, no practical application. A car is to be driven, add 50-60 mph wind and an open car is near impossible acoustically. No windows, absolute worst case scenario.

Well the theory has to be the starting point... We also have a convertible, so I'm all too familiar with wind/road noise in a open car. From my experience, a good stereo is quite effective in an open car on surface streets and back roads up 50/60mph, but I agree that on the freeway with the windows down at 70+ with tire noise from adjacent vehicles the noise floor is unmanageable.


I have no plans to sit in my parked 818 and listen to music while seated in it. That is far outside of its design parameters. I just want to be able to listen to my mp3s or a ball game while traveling back roads, a sportsbike with 4 wheels.D

I agree... but on my daily commute (which I plan to use my 818 for part-time), I have plenty of time to enjoy some good sound. That's what I'm planning the system for.


In a closed car a system can be designed with soft surfaces and electronically manipulated to form a very good sound stage for music, Many high end auto mfg partner with "experts" such as Bose or Altec Lansing, JBL for this purpose

A closed car is quieter, yes, but all that glass is the problem, no amount of equalization can counter the near field reflections; it really is the worst acoustic environment possible and good speaker placement is the best you can do to mitigate it. It astounds me how bad some of the 'premium' automotive audio systems actually are. The Harmon Kardon system in our 135i vert is pretty good, worth the $800 premium. The B&O in lower Audi's is so-so, not worth the upgrade IMO, but the premium B&O system in the S-class Benz that I heard was quite impressive. Every JBL system I've heard is all 'boom and sizzle' (over accentuated mid-bass and treble), and the Bose systems in Nissan/Infinity are absolutely horrid.

I hope I don't come off as argumentative or elitist, it's just that I'm confident that a well chosen, installed, and tuned system in an 818 can sound great (at low - moderate speeds), and it doesn't have to cost a fortune (I'll probably only spend ~$600).

[RM1SepEx]

Now I grew up in the 70's... virtually all classis rock albums were mixed using JBL 4311B studio monitors... that's the sound I look for and I actually still use my JBL L36 speakers at home... :-)

I hate the Bose sound, it is all smoke and mirror equalization of multiple small drivers, reflective wave response etc...

My point is that like the rest of the 818 these cars are but a canvas for each owner's creativity and needs...

I tried to live with just an amplifier and stereo speakers in my electric reverse trike... I couldn't live without the radio and with 10 cars I had to standardize on a single family of receivers or I'd never keep the buttons straight. For $150-200 I can get a nice, capable receiver. I refuse to use GPS etc and have little use for a smart phone, tablet etc... My son couldn't live without one!

To each their own... We all need to understand that an open roadster has severe acoustic limitations. I think that it is however safe to assume that we are building these cars nwith the stereo beinga rather minor part of its design parameters with perhaps an all out snow car being the sole exception.

I plan on driving mine!

[wleehendrick]

Now I grew up in the 70's... virtually all classis rock albums were mixed using JBL 4311B studio monitors... that's the sound I look for and I actually still use my JBL L36 speakers at home... :-)

I hate the Bose sound, it is all smoke and mirror equalization of multiple small drivers, reflective wave response etc...


No knock on JBL in general... their pro and vintage stuff is great. When it comes to automotive systems, however, I'm just shocked at what some well respected brands will put their name on.

And I completely agree with you on Bose... trying to circumvent the laws of physics with heavy equalization (and marketing).


To each their own... We all need to understand that an open roadster has severe acoustic limitations. I think that it is however safe to assume that we are building these cars nwith the stereo beinga rather minor part of its design parameters with perhaps an all out snow car being the sole exception.

I plan on driving mine!

I think we're really of similar opinions,... if you look at my original post, you see that I'm planning a fairly simple system, and it's a small part of my budget . I think it would be silly to put a big heavy system the an 818, it's contrary to the spirit of the car.

That being said, the only significant acoustic issue to deal with is a high noise floor... and IMHO, you can overcome that at moderate speeds (where I spend a good deal of my commute) with quality speakers with adequate power (which can be compact and affordable).

P.S. Hope the eye's healing up!

[RM1SepEx]

got great news on the eye Wednesday... healing nicely but I'm still dealing with the fluorocarbon fluid and gas that they filled my eye with during the operation. it should be just getting cleared up with new fluid by kit pickup the end of the month! Spending more than 50% of my time laying on my left side and watching Netflix

worked with my daughter this AM to fix the steering bushing in my lawn and garden tractor... I had to borrow her eyes and hands... no depth perception and I'm not driving yet. She needed the tractor to mow neighborhood lawns for $20/hr....

Nice to see her get her hands dirty and to give her a lesson on oilite bushings! This is metal, why does it feel greasy? LOL

[305mouse]

I know it's off topic but I'm glad your eye is healing well. I can't imagine going through all that.

[metalmaker12]

got great news on the eye Wednesday... healing nicely but I'm still dealing with the fluorocarbon fluid and gas that they filled my eye with during the operation. it should be just getting cleared up with new fluid by kit pickup the end of the month! Spending more than 50% of my time laying on my left side and watching Netflix

worked with my daughter this AM to fix the steering bushing in my lawn and garden tractor... I had to borrow her eyes and hands... no depth perception and I'm not driving yet. She needed the tractor to mow neighborhood lawns for $20/hr....

Nice to see her get her hands dirty and to give her a lesson on oilite bushings! This is metal, why does it feel greasy? LOL

Your a trooper bro, good for you, I wish I had more time, I would help you out

[RM1SepEx]

2nd eye with detached retina, the first one was ripped about 150 degrees around the perimeter and flapping around in my vision... This one wasn't so detached

Compared to my MS symptoms (numb from the chest down, pain everywhere, etc... for 22 years...) the eye is easy! You just have to put it all in perspective vs the journey that is life...

[Xusia]

I hate the Bose sound...

That's probably because it's crap.

[wleehendrick]

That's probably because it's crap.

No highs, no lows, must be Bose!

OK, enough Bose-bashing... we might offend someone :p. Let's talk about real gear.

[Flying Low]

Ok here are some thoughts for everyone from a fellow audiophile... I built my own home subwoofer and some other mid/high speakers for the house and hope to put in an equally kick but system in the 818. Maybe skip the head unit entirely and run directly from your mp3 device that also plays radio direct to the speakers? Or put in a car PC that has all your music collection? You could hook up all sorts of other sensors and other cool electronics to this which would be an advantage.

Don't do MDF, instead go the plexiglass route or actually use the aluminum panels themselves for the foundation of the sub box...not sure if there are any areas to do this, but something to think about. Will likely have to fill the box with poly fill to cut down on potential rattle or stiffen up the aluminum. Then it is also doing dual purpose in the car!

Also it seems like those shallow mount subs may be the way to go... I haven't analyzed them to come up with a winner, but this seems like a good approach...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=267-6919
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-297

Another approach would be to go to the smaller array of speakers (many acting as one).
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-919

Richard

[Silvertop]

Now I grew up in the 70's... virtually all classis rock albums were mixed using JBL 4311B studio monitors... that's the sound I look for and I actually still use my JBL L36 speakers at home... :-)



That's interesting. I bought a pair of L26's (similar to your L36's, but 2-way) in about 1975. Although all of my other audio components were changed out long ago, my old JBL's still function as the core front channels of my home stereo and 5.1 Home Theater System. They just sound better than most affordable new stuff, at least to my ear.

I'm not at all sold on the newer JBL's (at least the consumer grade stuff). OK but kind of ordinary, IMO.

This is an interesting thread. I plan to put in a 2 channel stereo in my 818 as well. Nothing too fancy. A decently-powered very good quality head unit with a built in CD player and a radio, and a pair of high quality 5 1/4" or slightly larger speakers. No subwoofer, probably no preamp. It had not occurred to me that speaker placement would be that critical to getting reasonable sound at highway speeds due to wind noise issues. I'll need to do more research. Keep talking, guys............!

[RM1SepEx]

I bought my L36's in 1977... I've re-coned the woofers but they still sound great. They have nice light oak cabinets and orange grills. I've gone through so many other audio pieces too. The Lion King movie cost me a set of woofers due to the opening elephant scene. The woofers jumped right out of the voice coils... I had to add a KLH subwoofer to protect my woofers from deep bass in movies.

[NonProfit]

RM1SepEx, hope that eye is getting better!

I'd encourage everyone who is building a system to consider using marine grade components (http://www.crutchfield.com/c_20/Marine-Audio.html). They will deal with the moisture better than standard equipment might.

And I know that Bose has taken some heat in this thread (and rightly so) but I still like the idea of mounting some 151's (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_018151SEW/Bose-151-SE-environmental-speakers-White.html) vertically and letting them define the profile of the dash.

[ehansen007]

Having gone through this open air experiment with the hot rod, putting the sub anywhere outside the cabin was useless. The 818 trunk is fairly close and you could run some ports into the cabin. In the hot rod, Strangely enough I was able to fit an 8" inch bazooka under the passenger side dash and it was awesome. With the V8 and the wind noise it took about 700W to be able to listen to anything on the freeway with the sub and two kicker coax 6" in the lower door. I think the kick panel/under dash sub box will be your best bet for anything in the sub category but the doors are also pretty cavernous so you you might be able to get frequencies as low as 100Hz to work there with the right setup and insulation. Just my experience.

[Silvertop]

I bought my L36's in 1977... I've re-coned the woofers but they still sound great. They have nice light oak cabinets and orange grills. I've gone through so many other audio pieces too. The Lion King movie cost me a set of woofers due to the opening elephant scene. The woofers jumped right out of the voice coils... I had to add a KLH subwoofer to protect my woofers from deep bass in movies.

My L26's are also light oak, but with brown grilles. I remember the orange ones, though. They were available on L26's also. My woofers were also rebuilt about 15 years ago by a local shop that specializes in reworking old JBL's. Tweeters are original. I have a 12 inch Polk Audio Subwoofer providing the thunder for my movies.

[wleehendrick]

Having gone through this open air experiment with the hot rod, putting the sub anywhere outside the cabin was useless. The 818 trunk is fairly close and you could run some ports into the cabin. In the hot rod, Strangely enough I was able to fit an 8" inch bazooka under the passenger side dash and it was awesome. With the V8 and the wind noise it took about 700W to be able to listen to anything on the freeway with the sub and two kicker coax 6" in the lower door. I think the kick panel/under dash sub box will be your best bet for anything in the sub category but the doors are also pretty cavernous so you you might be able to get frequencies as low as 100Hz to work there with the right setup and insulation. Just my experience.

Thanks for the info, Eric! That pretty much jives with my plans: a good pair of component speakers in the doors/dash/kick panel area crossed over around 100Hz, and a sub, all with 'enough' power. If I can fit a bazooka tube in the frunk and port it to the cabin, the would be great, otherwise, hopefully a slim (3") sub or two under or behind the seat(s). I won't know for sure until I have my kit in hand, or someone else tries it.

As another point of reference for noise in a topless car, I find the upgraded factory Harmon/Kardon system in our 135i vert quite effective. This has a pair of 1" tweeters and 4" mid-woofers front and rear, an 8" sub under each front seat with 'only' 300W of total power (not stated if this is RMS continuous or peak). At first I was a bit skeptical on whether or not this fairly modest hardware would be adequate in an open top car. I did tweak it with an SPL meter to flatten the frequency response, and got it dialed in quite well. Below 60mph, the factory system sounds great. It's only over 80mph that the wind noise becomes an issue. On the freeway, tire noise can be the biggest factor; on a back road with no other vehicles around, or a concrete barrier to reflect your car's noise back at you, it's fine.

Yes, our BMW is quieter than any 818 will likely be, however the exhaust on the M-sport package is surprisingly throaty (we get comments and compliments on it all the time), and with the top and windows down any open car is noisy. We have a wind deflector, which helps immensely, and I expect the 'speed humps' on the 818 will function similarly by reducing turbulence around the head. That being the case, I'm getting more confident that a fairly modest audio system like I'm planning will do well in an 818.

[ehansen007]

I'd be interested in seeing if you can get anything under the seats. BMW thinks of things like that but with the 818, depending your height, you may not want those seat up too high lest you get above the effective angle of the roll bar and possibly the windshield. It's also going to be interesting to see how much dynamat will be used in these cars as well. For those who haven't built a kit the use of sound deadening material will separate your car from the rest and make it into a real car if you do it right. I went through about 70lbs worth in the hot rod and it made all the difference.

[longislandwrx]

I don't want a head unit or need a radio, just want to use my phone. Anyone know of a loud powered speaker(s) that I can use?

I'm looking at marine stuff for the most part, perhaps a higher quality version of this:

http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PLMRKT2A-2-Channel-Waterproof-Amplified/dp/B003GSLDUO/ref=sr_1_18?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1373481398&sr=1-18&keywords=powered+marine+subwoofer

[wleehendrick]

I'd be interested in seeing if you can get anything under the seats. BMW thinks of things like that but with the 818, depending your height, you may not want those seat up too high lest you get above the effective angle of the roll bar and possibly the windshield. It's also going to be interesting to see how much dynamat will be used in these cars as well. For those who haven't built a kit the use of sound deadening material will separate your car from the rest and make it into a real car if you do it right. I went through about 70lbs worth in the hot rod and it made all the difference.

I'll be locating the seats for my ideal driving position, and to pass the 'broomstick test', of course. If and only if there's room underneath will a sub go there.

DynaMat (or similar sound deadening) is in my plan, along with carpeting the interior and finishing the door panels. Hopefully 70lbs isn't required, i't's a small cockpit, after all!

[Xusia]

Also it seems like those shallow mount subs may be the way to go... I haven't analyzed them to come up with a winner, but this seems like a good approach...
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=267-6919
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=297-297

Another approach would be to go to the smaller array of speakers (many acting as one).
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-919

Richard

Those seem like decent parts. I am an admitted brand-whore when it comes to subs (and most things audio), so I will be using JL Audio subs. The less expensive ones (which I have in my current vehicle) are similarly priced (that is, NOT expensive) but still sound great.


I'd encourage everyone who is building a system to consider using marine grade components (http://www.crutchfield.com/c_20/Marine-Audio.html). They will deal with the moisture better than standard equipment might.

I've got some experience with convertibles (having owned 2 for a number of years) and in my opinion (which I have stated in the past on this forum) water is not as big of a deal as some may think. Unless you leave it uncovered while it's raining, you not likely to get an appreciable amount of water in the car. A few drops will not hurt most components, but in reality few components will even see a single drop. Speakers have grills which will get the majority of any water (if not all), and the head unit will most likely be in the dash with a fair amount of things above it to "catch" any water. Amps & subs are not likely to be mounted in such a way to even be exposed.

Marine components don't hurt, you are just paying unecessarily (both in price and/or in reduced sound quality) for the water resistance.

[BipDBo]

19753

[Xusia]

Hahaha! Too bad the "ghetto blaster" is a dying breed!

[Flying Low]

Those seem like decent parts. I am an admitted brand-whore when it comes to subs (and most things audio), so I will be using JL Audio subs. The less expensive ones (which I have in my current vehicle) are similarly priced (that is, NOT expensive) but still sound great.

Marine components don't hurt, you are just paying unecessarily (both in price and/or in reduced sound quality) for the water resistance.

I agree with you Xusia. Not really much advantage going with the marine. I know what you mean about the buying the brand. The only problem is that JLs are notoriously power/space hogs. They are not very efficient subs. I highly recommend you check the parts express stuff out. is professional speaker building componentry.

[Xusia]

I'm familiar with both Kicker and Pioneer, but I'm sorry to say I'm not much of fan myself. As I stated, they are good parts, I'm just a self professed whore/snob when it comes to things like this (it's a bit of a curse at times). I am not familiar with the Tang brand of speaker, but because of my aforementioned problem, I'm not likely to take a chance without actually hearing them first. Since I don't see a way to do that I don't see myself taking the risk. :(

As far as space requirements for JL, I have to disagree. Not trying to change your mind, but my own experience with them (again, in my current vehicle) indicates they can sound very good in small spaces. As for power, it's not going to be an EV, so I'm not overly concerned. I tend to go for overkill when it comes to audio power (maybe that's why they sound good in the small spaces in my truck?) and will probably do the same in my 818. I'm only planning a single sub, probably an 8", so something in the 300-500 watt range should do fine! :)

[305mouse]

I think a 7 or 8" sub between the seats towards the bottom will be a perfect fit and out of the way. I was on the JL and MB Quart bandwagon for many years. I have only bought JL subs and find the right ones are great in small spaces. An 8" needs less than 1 cubic feet, hell, I fit 2 10" subs in about 1.7 cubic feet and they were great.

[wleehendrick]

I'm on the same page as Xusia (although not as much a power hog!) and disagree in general that JL is a space/power hog. Sure there are plenty of huge powerful systems built with their gear, but that's not really necessary if your goal is accurate music, as opposed to show car systems or SPL competition, which I just don't get.

In my current Z, I have the 'lowliest' 10" JL sub in a really small (<1 ft^3) sealed enclosure. This is driven by two bridged channels from my JL 300/4 amp (the other two drive the fronts), crossed over to my front components around 80Hz. I also have 30Hz high-pass FMODs on the inputs to protect it from over-excursion with really deep bass. No, it wont rumble the hood, but it's has plenty of nice tight musical bass at reasonable volumes, and takes up practically no space. That's the results I'd like to get from whatever I decide to put in my 818.

[Xusia]

I'm on the same page as Xusia (although not as much a power hog!)

Hahaha! I don't actually USE it all (well, most of the time I don't!). I just like power in reserve and don't like to overdrive amps. Helps them run cooler and live longer...

[nkw8181]

I am looking at putting something like the marine audio in my car. I am not looking for something that will be HUGE and I also plan to make all easily removable since I'm building the R. Although I don't "plan" to leave her out in the rain I am being realistic when I say it is bound to happen so I will plan for it. This tread had given me a lot of ideas. If has been a good 10 years since I have kept up with what is current in car audio. from what I have gleamed I like the idea on no head unit and in its place a phone/tablet mount. Speaker wise I plan on making my own internal door panels with the speakers attached that are easily removable. I know it won't be the best sound quality but most if not all sound damping will be localized around the panels. I will drive this on the street and on track.

Nolan
Thanks for all the good ideas!

[Silvertop]

I am looking at putting something like the marine audio in my car. I am not looking for something that will be HUGE and I also plan to make all easily removable since I'm building the R. Although I don't "plan" to leave her out in the rain I am being realistic when I say it is bound to happen so I will plan for it. This tread had given me a lot of ideas. If has been a good 10 years since I have kept up with what is current in car audio. from what I have gleamed I like the idea on no head unit and in its place a phone/tablet mount. Speaker wise I plan on making my own internal door panels with the speakers attached that are easily removable. I know it won't be the best sound quality but most if not all sound damping will be localized around the panels. I will drive this on the street and on track.

Nolan
Thanks for all the good ideas!

A lot of Polk Audio's stuff (and in particular all of their good stuff from their MM series) is completely weatherproof. And the MM stuff will sound VERY good. Check out their website.

[nkw8181]

thanks!

[Silvertop]

Moving the conversation below over from the GrassRoots Motorsports Build Thread:

Originally Posted by Silvertop
I know there is a more suitable thread for discussing stereo systems. I won't discuss that any more here. I just need to know the vertical dimensions and depth of the new inner door panel upper recesses.

Originally Posted by wleehendrick
That would be the thread I started here. I"m in the same situation, I will be installing an audio system, and am anxiously looking for any info on mounting options in the door panels.

Originally Posted by Silvertop
My plan was to install the largest and highest quality coaxial or three-way speaker I can buy. The goal is a really good 6 X 9. .

Originally Posted by wleehendrick
FYI, for sound quality forget about coaxial speakers or most 6x9's!!! Get a good set of component speakers (with separate woofers, tweeters and cross-overs network). This lets you mount the tweeter higher in the door for better stereo imaging. The woofer, which handles harder to localize low frequencies, can then be mounted lower in the panel without issues. There are lots of quality component systems with 5.25" and 6.5" woofers (and some 6x9). If 6.5" doesn't fit, I'm optimistic there will be a good location for a 5.25" (but that would likely require a sub for decent bass).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wlee:

I agree in principle with your comments about component speaker quality vs coaxials and 6 X 9 3-ways. But there are a few really good ones out there. For example, Polk Audio's MM-Series stuff is uncommonly good -- and there are others. But most of the stuff you buy in the big box stores IS pretty ordinary. You won't find Polk's top shelf stuff there, or any of the other top brands' really good lines. I would select one of these top shelf coaxials largely for the simplicity of it -- though I haven't ruled out component sets. But the real problem is that whether I use components or coaxials, I am resistant to trying to shoehorn a subwoofer into the car somewhere. Even if I can find the space, I hate to sacrifice it. There is likely to be so little of it in this car. I really don't require chest-slamming thunder -- but I don't want to lose bass response altogether. Which is why I am so concerned about what I can get to fit in the doors............:p

[Xusia]

Silvertop, I think you will find the components easier to install. Yes, there are more pieces, but by having more pieces you gain flexibility in placement. With suitable locations being at a premium, I think having placement flexibility will trump having fewer pieces when in comes to ease. Also, as you said, a good 6x9 is harder to come by. There are a lot more options when it comes to good component speakers.

As far as bass goes, I know *I* can hear a difference between 6.5" round woofers and 6x9's, but I think the average person would be hard pressed to really notice much difference. Also, the enclosure plays a large roll in the bass delivery of any smaller woofer such as we are talking about here. My gut tells me the door will be a poor enclosure, and not big enough anyway to really allow even a good 6x9 to deliver more bass than a good 6.5" woofer (...as part of a component set). Saying it another way, if you want more bass than a 6.5" installed in the door delivers, I don't think you will find a 6x9 installed in the door will deliver enough more to satisfy you - you will need to look at other options.

Speaking of other options, there are quite a few. I don't have my kit yet, so I can't qualify specific areas or solutions yet, but some preliminary thoughts I've had are:

Sealed box under the dash housing a 6.5" or 8" sub. You wouldn't get a ton of bass with this, but you would need almost no space.
Ported box housing a 6.5" or 8" sub in either forward of the front firewall, or rearward of the rear firewall, ported INTO the cabin. Would take up more space, but in areas where such space seems to exist.
Under-seat transducer. Technically NOT a subwoofer, but it would feel like one. They make them pretty small, and they take less power than a sub.

[Silvertop]

Silvertop, I think you will find the components easier to install. Yes, there are more pieces, but by having more pieces you gain flexibility in placement. With suitable locations being at a premium, I think having placement flexibility will trump having fewer pieces when in comes to ease. Also, as you said, a good 6x9 is harder to come by. There are a lot more options when it comes to good component speakers.

As far as bass goes, I know *I* can hear a difference between 6.5" round woofers and 6x9's, but I think the average person would be hard pressed to really notice much difference. Also, the enclosure plays a large roll in the bass delivery of any smaller woofer such as we are talking about here. My gut tells me the door will be a poor enclosure, and not big enough anyway to really allow even a good 6x9 to deliver more bass than a good 6.5" woofer (...as part of a component set). Saying it another way, if you want more bass than a 6.5" installed in the door delivers, I don't think you will find a 6x9 installed in the door will deliver enough more to satisfy you - you will need to look at other options.

Speaking of other options, there are quite a few. I don't have my kit yet, so I can't qualify specific areas or solutions yet, but some preliminary thoughts I've had are:

Sealed box under the dash housing a 6.5" or 8" sub. You wouldn't get a ton of bass with this, but you would need almost no space.
Ported box housing a 6.5" or 8" sub in either forward of the front firewall, or rearward of the rear firewall, ported INTO the cabin. Would take up more space, but in areas where such space seems to exist.
Under-seat transducer. Technically NOT a subwoofer, but it would feel like one. They make them pretty small, and they take less power than a sub.


A lot of interesting food for thought in your comments.

I haven't really decided which way to jump, but my hope is still to use the doors as the home of my primary speakers. Based on what I am seeing, the 6 X 9's probably won't work because (at least if I want to mount them up high), the door panel upper recesses almost certainly won't be tall enough. Which unfortunately, also means that a 6 1/2" round speaker won't go in either. Maybe a 5 1/4 will fit. But that starts to drive the need for a sub, and I'm hoping to avoid that. It just seems to me that finding space will be difficult. My kit should be delivered some time later next week by Stewart Transport (FFR has confirmed that it is done and ready for shipment) so I'll have the ability to figure out mounting choices.

I haven't ruled out component sets. One could then mount only the tweeter up high on the door, with a matching top quality 6 1/2" woofer down lower -- assuming that the lower recess isn't so deep that there's insufficient remaining depth in the door for the speaker.

A 6 1/2" sub? Didn't know you could buy them that small. And I'm totally unfamiliar with transducer technology. Who makes those?

Lots of choices. Once I have my kit in hand, it will be easier figure out what can be done and what can't. It'll be fun!:)

[Xusia]

The only real difference between a subwoofer and any other speaker is the "throw" or cone excursion - the maximum safe travel distance of the cone. So, any speaker with sufficient cone excursion could be used as a subwoofer. 6.5" is pretty small, and there aren't a lot of choices, but here is one:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-919

I would definitely recommend an 8" sub if at all possible (when it comes to subs, generally bigger is better - up to a point). The only real reason (in my opinion) to opt for a 6.5" is if an 8" just absolutely won't fit.

Now, transducers... I think they are pretty cool, but probably not for everyone. They operate in a similar fashion to a speaker, but rather than moving a voice coil back and forth which is attached to a cone (intended to produce sound waves that travel through the air), they forego the cone and therefore just "shake" whatever they are attached to (i.e. your seat). Because solid objects transmit vibrations much more efficienctly and effectively than air, transducers are much smaller and take much less power than a sub to achieve the same "feel." Keep in mind, though, they are NOT producing any appreciable amount of actual sound - just the associated vibrations of bass. I think in a convertible (an inherently noisy environment), it might be the magic bullet. Check out the ridiculously low price on this highly rated transducer - and it only needs a PALTRY 50 WATTS!!
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-028&utm_source=youtub&utm_medium=youtube&utm_content=299028

Rating on it, as well as another source to buy:
http://www.smarthome.com/8249P1/Bass-Shaker-Pro-50-Watt-RMS-Bass-Transducer/p.aspx

[Silvertop]

The only real difference between a subwoofer and any other speaker is the "throw" or cone excursion - the maximum safe travel distance of the cone. So, any speaker with sufficient cone excursion could be used as a subwoofer. 6.5" is pretty small, and there aren't a lot of choices, but here is one:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-919

I would definitely recommend an 8" sub if at all possible (when it comes to subs, generally bigger is better - up to a point). The only real reason (in my opinion) to opt for a 6.5" is if an 8" just absolutely won't fit.

Now, transducers... I think they are pretty cool, but probably not for everyone. .................

I'm thinking that the transducer wouldn't be for me........................ But what about something like this?:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091IBUS20/Focal-Integration-IBus-20.html

[wleehendrick]

The transducer is an interesting idea, and I seriously might consider it! It could give the sensation of deep bass without the size/weight of a large sub. My only concern is what cross-over frequency to use? I generally like to stay close to the THX recommended 80Hz, as that's where the ear can start to localize sound.

In my home system, with fairly capable mains, I use 60Hz. In my Z, however, I set it up closer to 90Hz (any lower and my door panels vibrate a bit). A lot of car audio systems and 'home theater in a box' with small speakers run much higher (>100Hz) cross-overs to the sub, but that wouldn't work with a tranducer-only system. The specs on the transducer list the upper frequency range as 80Hz, and that's certainly the max I would use. That means unless you want a hole in the mid-bass frequency response, you'll need main speakers that dig down fairly deep, so at least 6.5" woofers, IMHO.

In contrast, the Harmon Kardon system in my wife's 135i has 4" 'woofers' in the doors and 8" subs under the seat. It sounds surprisingly good given the modest speaker sizes, but the mid-bass is a tad lacking; replace the subs with transducers would make the effect much worse.

[Xusia]

I'm thinking that the transducer wouldn't be for me........................ But what about something like this?:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091IBUS20/Focal-Integration-IBus-20.html

I haven't heard that unit, but Focal is well respected. Given the size and power, I doubt it will "thump" but it could be adequate. Cant argue with the size! You should easily be able to find a place to put that.


The transducer is an interesting idea, and I seriously might consider it! It could give the sensation of deep bass without the size/weight of a large sub. My only concern is what cross-over frequency to use? I generally like to stay close to the THX recommended 80Hz, as that's where the ear can start to localize sound.

In my home system, with fairly capable mains, I use 60Hz. In my Z, however, I set it up closer to 90Hz (any lower and my door panels vibrate a bit). A lot of car audio systems and 'home theater in a box' with small speakers run much higher (>100Hz) cross-overs to the sub, but that wouldn't work with a tranducer-only system. The specs on the transducer list the upper frequency range as 80Hz, and that's certainly the max I would use. That means unless you want a hole in the mid-bass frequency response, you'll need main speakers that dig down fairly deep, so at least 6.5" woofers, IMHO.

In contrast, the Harmon Kardon system in my wife's 135i has 4" 'woofers' in the doors and 8" subs under the seat. It sounds surprisingly good given the modest speaker sizes, but the mid-bass is a tad lacking; replace the subs with transducers would make the effect much worse.

I'm sure the instructions have a recommendation, and I'd definitely go with that. I'd be surprised if the recommendation was as high as 80Hz - that would practically make it a vibrator! LOL! My guess is somewhere between 40Hz and 60Hz.

[Silvertop]

I haven't heard that unit, but Focal is well respected. Given the size and power, I doubt it will "thump" but it could be adequate. Cant argue with the size! You should easily be able to find a place to put that.

Well, the good news is that I don't require a lot of "thump". In fact, I actually find chest-slamming bass response a little bit undesirable. But a unit like this should resolve the missing bass response issues, particularly if forced to go with 5 1/4" or smaller midrange in the doors. I did notice that the Focal unit only has a frequency response rating of 45-150hz, which isn't really "down there" all that far. I also found a Kenwood unit on the same website with similar power stats, except that it was rated for 35-125hz, a little bit deeper. At $250, it's 50 bucks cheaper than the focal, and is even a good deal smaller and 1/4" lower than the Focal, which could be important if one is going to put it under the seat. Check it out at: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KSCSW11/Kenwood-KSC-SW11.html?tp=114

I won't be picking the specific unit to buy anytime soon -- I need to build the car first! --but I am pleased to see what appears to be a solution to my anticipated set of speaker range issues. :)

[Xusia]

No having heard either, I think I like the Kenwood unit a bit better.

[Silvertop]

No having heard either, I think I like the Kenwood unit a bit better.

Yeah, I think I do too. I love to research stuff like this. I figure to find out as much about this product (and other similar ones) as I can. Then make an informed decision....

[wleehendrick]

I've also been considering a slim, underseat sub. After a lot of googling, this Soundstream (http://www.amazon.com/Soundstream-USB-8A-Powered-Subwoofer-Enclosure/dp/B0085CAYZ6)is probably my first choice if I can't fit a bigger sub in the 818. The Kenwood is on my shortlist as well.

[Xusia]

I'm planning a traditional sub, but that's assuming I can find the space.

[Pike]

My two bits here from my years of experience of listening to music in all kinds of environment:

1. Just about any sound system out there is good enough for a vehicle. Your biggest interest should be in the speakers and their placement. As one poster said, "glass" is your enemy.
2. File format!!! MP3's are crap (even burned from a CD) and unfortunately, there is not much out there for vehicles to make that better. I have almost 300GB of music on a media server (JRiver Media Center) at home and I've been converting what I have in mp3's into a file format called "flac" using "exact audio copy". The only company that makes a compatible mobile system that makes a player capable of playing flac format music is Kenwood (just came out this year).

http://www.kenwood.ca/Car_Entertainment/Digital_Media_Receivers/KMM-100U. I haven't found anyone local that sells them yet so I'm searching the internet as we speak and I'll be ordering one...pronto!!!!

MP3's sound like music being played underwater compare to a loosless file format. It doesn't have to be 24bit/96khz sound as 16bit/44khz will do just fine in a car but if you have the capability to listen them side by side, you'll never go back to mp3.

Just check it out and you'll see. :cool:

[billjr212]

I confess I didn't read every post here, but I'm glad this discussion already exists. 1 comment and 1 question:

For those considering a "simple" set up, do a search in the Roadster sections here and on the other forum. I and many others have had success in using nothing but a phone with bluetooth, an amp in the trunk and a couple speakers.

For this build (when I get to it) I was considering getting a decent head unit since this will be sharing daily driving duties with my 2011 WRX and I don't feel a need to stick to a "classic" look. I was looking at something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0086V637Y/

23224

But is a double DIN going to fit in this space on the dash?
23223

[Xusia]

I'll have my kit in a few weeks, but right now I cant say. My plan has always been to put any head unit in the console. Plenty of room there.

[flynntuna]

Would there be enough room between the Boyd tank and the aluminum behind the seats possibly even using that panel to build a custom subwoofer?

[Wayne Presley]

Would there be enough room between the Boyd tank and the aluminum behind the seats possibly even using that panel to build a custom subwoofer?

Not that I would see. Way easier to put the sub up front and porting it back into the passenger compartment.

[Xusia]

That pic makes it look like there is enough room, but since that tank only adds like 3" (or 4"??) of leg room, that's simply not enough depth to work with.

What I wish Boyd made was a tank that was as tall as possible on the passenger side, but left the space behind the driver's seat vacant (except for the filler tube) so that it could be filled with a proper sub (or for REALLY tall folks to have even more leg room!).

Boyd, if you are reading this...!

[wleehendrick]

Boyd, if you are reading this...!

Give him the dimensions and I'm sure he'll make one for you!

By the way, I got some of my audio system already... I ordered a Sony DSXS210X head unit on closeout and a little Alpine KTP-445U amp (bridgable to 90W into two channels). Once I finish my chassis Aluminum, I'll pick a spot for speakers and decide on 5.25" or 6.5"; definitely going with components. Subwoofer is still TBD based on space once the interior is settled.

[Xusia]

Awesome! I spoke with my local installer of choice the other day and have a good idea what I want to do. I'm going sans head unit and will be using a tablet instead. That will necessitate a custom console I'm sure. I'll pick the tablet once I get the kit and see the particulars.

[David Hodgkins]

That pic makes it look like there is enough room, but since that tank only adds like 3" (or 4"??) of leg room, that's simply not enough depth to work with.

What I wish Boyd made was a tank that was as tall as possible on the passenger side, but left the space behind the driver's seat vacant (except for the filler tube) so that it could be filled with a proper sub (or for REALLY tall folks to have even more leg room!).

Boyd, if you are reading this...!

I think the tall tank from FFR is only on the passenger side...

:)

[flynntuna]

Not that I would see. Way easier to put the sub up front and porting it back into the passenger compartment.



Yea I see what you mean.

[wleehendrick]

I ordered the Boyd tank, and I plan the modify the rear firewall to get up to 3" more cockpit space. Once I get that and my seats positioned, I'll see if I have enough room for a slim (underseat) subwoofer on the firewall. I know they're not ideal, but there are quite a few 3-4" thick subs that might work:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a32OqoyPL.jpg

[Harley818]

this thread is a year old!!!! any updates from you that have finished your builds?
I'm looking for a good head unit (for convenience of easy accessability) but basically using my Iphone for music. Good all around sound, with sub.

Any more recent updates or ideas? One of the new Sony systems seems to have good bluetooth compatability and reviews are favorable.
I would rather hear from someone who has done it and likes the sound.

[ewingate]

Kicker PXiBT50.2
Basically a little bluetooth amp for 2 speakers, weather resistant buttons, pre-amp out for a subwoofer, aux-in. Looks and works great!

[wleehendrick]

this thread is a year old!!!! any updates from you that have finished your builds?
I'm looking for a good head unit (for convenience of easy accessability) but basically using my Iphone for music. Good all around sound, with sub.

Any more recent updates or ideas? One of the new Sony systems seems to have good bluetooth compatability and reviews are favorable.
I would rather hear from someone who has done it and likes the sound.

I've purchased my headunit (A single DIN Sony DSX210X) and small digital amp (Alpine KTP-445U), but nothing's installed yet. I didn't get the Bluetooth version, as I prefer to load up a USB stick and leave it in the stereo, so it's independent.

I now know I don't have space behind my seats for a sub :( and I'm waiting to get speakers until I'm further along. I'll definitely get component speakers with tweeters in the dash and woofers down in the kickpanels.

[nkw8181]

I'm thinking of putting two speakers in the front of the center console. Would simplify wiring.

[wleehendrick]

I'm thinking of putting two speakers in the front of the center console. Would simplify wiring.

That would be a good location for a sub or bass module, if you can find one that will fit, but I prefer my music in stereo (not mono) which means left speaker on my left and right on my right! ;) Compared to modifying the donor harness, wiring up a couple speakers to go to the sides is pretty easy!

[K3LAG]

Not finished yet, but my system is:

Rockford Fosgate P165-S 6.5" Component speakers
Rockford Fosgate F300X2 Amp mounted under dash w/remote level control
iStreamer mounted under dash
iPad Mini mounted in custom mount in dash
A sub is yet to be determined, but if I do one, I think it will be a flat one, firing down, under the dash.

Larry

[thall818]

I will be permanently mounting a Samsung Galaxy Tab 4, 7" in the console. This will connect to http://www.outofsightaudio.com/ or the Kicker Bluetooth or something else. I may look for something hardwired.

The plan is to then run DashCommand as well.

If I can run audio through direct connection, then I can run DashCommand Bluetooth.

This will allow me to read email through a wi-fi connection while driving on the track. 36211 Never on the street. Seriously though, I'd like to save Wi-Fi for GPS navigation.

This would give me three functions on the tablet. A backup camera would also be nice considering the visibility. I don't have an answer for that yet.

Travis

[thall818]

A few changes, but it works great. First, I dropped the out of sight audio. Went with an LC2i as a signal conditioner/crossover. I'm coming out of the headphone jack on my Galaxy tab so the signal needs to be converted from high to low. The LC2i then gives me sub pre-outs and mid/high pre-outs.

I have the mids going to an Alpine amp and over to two door speakers.

The low pass goes to a Rockville 10" self powered low profile sub to go under the dash pointing at the passengers feet.

The LC2i should see the signal from the Galaxy and turn on automatically. I haven't gotten that to work yet, but worst case I mount an on/off switch.

The sub also has remote bass adjustment. I'd like the subwoofer to be easy to remove, as it's 15lbs. A quick disconnect/mount would make it nice for track days.

Few more hurdles to jump and I should be there.37358

[billjr212]

Thought I would revive this old thread from the dead now that I finally installed my sound system.

First of all, do yourself a favor and install during the build. What a pain (literally, my back hurts and I think I bruised a couple ribs while cramming myself upside down into the footwells).

Anyway, I tucked a bluetooth amp up above the passenger footwell and wired to a pair of 5 1/4" speakers in the kick panels....and that's it. No head unit. Only visible parts of the system are the speakers and a switch that I put in one of the blanks available in the Subaru center console. Plays music directly from the phone (Pandora, Amazon prime music, etc).

I was able to utilize previously vacated fuse for power (20 amp fuse that used to be the supply for the ABS) and various wiring that had been previously dieted from the donor. I wouldn't advise this with a higher powered amp, but with this light duty combo, it worked out perfectly.

Here is the amp: Pyle PLMRA410BT Elite Series Waterproof Bluetooth Amplifier (400 Watt 4-Channel Marine Amp)
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-PLMRA410BT-Waterproof-Bluetooth-Amplifier/dp/B00WR6ZX4I

Speakers:
http://www.amazon.com/Kicker-41DSC54-5-25-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B00I2YX1KW

Switch:
http://www.amazon.com/Motorsports%C2%AE-Laser-Rocker-Switch-STEREO/dp/B00K6DAR7M

Drove it on this highway this morning and worked perfectly.

[GoDadGo]

I installed an Infinity PRV-250 with four Polk DB401 4" Coaxial Speakers in my MK-4. The head unit is MP3, USB and Bluetooth compatible with peak power of 200 watts or 4 channels at 50 watts each. Everything is weather/water resistant since the MK-4 is an open topper. I got everything from ROCK THE BOAT AUDIO and it was inexpensive and what I needed. The head unit is only about 2" deep so it is pretty shallow from a mounting perspective.

[Hindsight]

Thought I would revive this old thread from the dead now that I finally installed my sound system.

Thanks for that... had no idea about blue tooth amps and they seem perfect. Who needs a head unit in 2014? I never use any of mine in the other cars I have except to connect to my phone via blue tooth to play music.

[GoDadGo]

Thanks for that... had no idea about blue tooth amps and they seem perfect. Who needs a head unit in 2014? I never use any of mine in the other cars I have except to connect to my phone via blue tooth to play music. I just wanted something that could get wet just in case.

[billjr212]

Thanks for that... had no idea about blue tooth amps and they seem perfect. Who needs a head unit in 2014? I never use any of mine in the other cars I have except to connect to my phone via blue tooth to play music.

No problem. I was pretty excited as I had never heard of them either and just stumbled on it on Amazon while looking at regular amplifiers. Doesn't seem like they are all that common yet, but there are a few reasonable options out there. Just have to search them out.

I had fully planned to go with a regular head unit, but I'm really enjoying the clean look of the dash without one and figured I can always add it later and just run it to the amp. I just need to come up with a good way to mount my phone within reach and I will be all set (I just drop it in the cup holder for now).

[AZPete]

I, as usual, went a different direction and put in a Pioneer 7000 with Apple Car Play. I've only done 130 miles but like it so far.
52763

[svanlare]

Any issues with the Car Play? I was planning to try to run without a head unit, just bluetooth to the phone, but I really would like to have FM and haven't been able to figure out how to add that without a screen (trying an Arduino tuner that I would control from the phone this weekend). If I'm going to add a screen, then I keep thinking the new car play options look good, and it would be a lot simpler than writing code.

[07FIREBLADE]

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu293/deathpanda949/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/70514ABB-1C42-40DF-9E98-581384D175AC.jpg (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/deathpanda949/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/70514ABB-1C42-40DF-9E98-581384D175AC.jpg.html)

I'm going CarPlay also. Still in the getting it installed phase but I've liked what amount I've used it in other cars. For me it was it checked off a few boxes.

[carrera1984]

I'm on the wiring phase... thought i'd share my minimalist full sound system setup!

I got the mini amp idea from wleehendrick and expanded on it. I choose to use mostly JL pieces because I was able to get the Amp(discontinued-usual for JL Audio) and Bluetooth receiver(sale), both at a discount. The sub was from my dune buggy that I never used. It is and 8" small guy. All of these parts have water resistance/proof rating which is a plus as the car will never be sealed perfectly even though seeing rain will be null. The speakers are undecided, as I need some help.

http://i.imgur.com/WtrC0NMm.jpg
Amp-4 channel or 3 channel(can bridge the 2 rears for a sub)
http://www.jlaudio.com/hx280-4-car-audio-hx-amplifiers-98401
Bluetooth receiver with buttons
http://www.jlaudio.com/mbt-crx-marine-audio-bluetooth-receiver-91127

Cheaper receiver option(would be hidden and all functions controlled via phone)
http://www.jlaudio.com/mbt-rx-marine-audio-bluetooth-receiver-91126

Polk Audio MM840
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107MM840/Polk-Audio-MM840.html?tp=111&awkw=191382610585&awat=pla_with_promotion&awnw=g&awcr=99516653425&awdv=c

How it works-
The switched ignition sends a signal to the amp and bluetooth to turn on when you turn on the car. The Bluetooth then auto connects to your phone and you select your music(downloaded music, Pandora, etc) and then from there you can skip tracks and adjust volume all from a little unit on the dash. The bluetooth outputs to the amp which goes to the speaker and sub. Pretty simple and low weight for a sports car.

A few questions for the guys that are further along then I am...
1) As I have a coupe, what are the best locations for component speakers, kick panels? 5.25" 's?
2) Is it okay to place the sub in the general area as it is in the picture, if not, whats good? (I plan on fiber glassing a small enclosure for the sub. specs suggest .35cuft optimal)
3) Won't that kick panel get really hot!? Can't imagine that's good for a speaker
http://i.imgur.com/sQuQr5Um.jpg

Something similar to this job I did on the dune buggy. Basically I took a triangle piece of thin plywood with a speaker hole cut into it and layered a plastic tub yogurt container upside down on it. Then I stretched felt across it and stapled it. Impregnated resin into the felt. Pulled out yogurt container when dry. I believe I also put a layer of fiberglass over the felt for a 2nd structural coat.(sub will require a few more layers) Some bondo and paint, and that was it. super light.
http://i.imgur.com/MhKSFwXm.jpg

Weight-
Amp 2.5 lbs
Bluetooth .4 lbs
Sub 10.0 lbs
Components ~4.5 lbs?
Sub enclosure ~2.0 lbs? (no bondo)
Total 19.4 lbs est (8.80 kilos for you metric guys:) )

[wleehendrick]

I'm on the wiring phase... thought i'd share my minimalist full sound system setup!

I got the mini amp idea from wleehendrick and expanded on it.


I like your system... Glad to help! I just installed a Bluetooth receiver and little class D stereo amp in our BBQ island to power a couple outdoor rock speakers and stream music from my phone when out on the patio. Its pretty impressive how much power you can get out of the tiny, cool running switching amps available now.



A few questions for the guys that are further along then I am...
1) As I have a coupe, what are the best locations for component speakers, kick panels? 5.25" 's?

I haven't installed speakers in the 818 yet, but from previous experience, since you have components, ideally I'd recommend woofers in the kick panels and tweeters in the dash or door panels angled towards you. Without a sub, I'd want 6" woofers, and some guys have fit those. But with a sub, 5.25" should be fine. Given the angle they're at, a driver with a phase plug (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_plug) instead of a dust cap should give better mid-range, but that's getting nit-picky for an 818!

58592



2) Is it okay to place the sub in the general area as it is in the picture, if not, whats good? (I plan on fiber glassing a small enclosure for the sub. specs suggest .35cuft optimal)
http://i.imgur.com/sQuQr5Um.jpg


That would be perfectly fine with a low (<80Hz) crossover frequency where the sound is omni-directional/un-localizable. However, with 5.25 woofers and a 8" sub, the x-over should be set higher, like 100-120Hz. In that case, the mid-upper bass could be a bit vague, but should be completely acceptable for a sportscar; it's a location option I'm considering if I install a sub. In any case, it's better than a Bose tiny cube + "sub"woofer system with an even higher crossover.



3) Won't that kick panel get really hot!? Can't imagine that's good for a speaker


Good point, the side with coolant outflow will be warm. I don't know if this poses an issue to the speaker driver. Plenty of builders have put speakers there, and I don't recall reading about any problems.

[carrera1984]

Thanks wleehendrick for the advice. I think i'm going to go with 5.25's in the kick panels and the sub where I have it in the pic. So pretty much the whole under dash area is free it looks like.(away from the driver area)

[Lumpyguy]

I am also at the point of audio, I have Kenwood bluetooth 4 channel amp with remote controller to mount in the console, my plan is to put 2 - 3-4" speakers in the top of the dash on the corners and 2 - 5-6" speakers in the door panels between the dash and the kick panels. now my issue is The amp only has a fade front to rear control and just wondering what I should use for speakers. I was thinking 3 way up top and 2 way down below. not sure if component is an option?

I am just looking for half decent sound no real quality.

thoughts?

[wleehendrick]

I am also at the point of audio, I have Kenwood bluetooth 4 channel amp with remote controller to mount in the console, my plan is to put 2 - 3-4" speakers in the top of the dash on the corners and 2 - 5-6" speakers in the door panels between the dash and the kick panels. now my issue is The amp only has a fade front to rear control and just wondering what I should use for speakers. I was thinking 3 way up top and 2 way down below. not sure if component is an option?

I am just looking for half decent sound no real quality.

thoughts?

I'd recommend one good set of component speakers with external crossovers over two sets of coaxial speakers as you were thinking. For similar cost, you'll get better sound by putting your budget into one good set rather than multiple cheaper speakers. Put the woofers in the kick panels and the tweeters in the dash. In a two-seater, there's just no need for more than one stereo set of speakers and you can get a decent set of component speakers for well under $100.

Is the Kenwood amp bridgeable; what's the model #? The little external 4-channel Alpine amp I got is, so I'm bridging it into two channel mode to drive a single pair of speakers. Some 4 channel amps allow you to bridge two channels together to drive a subwoofer, leaving 2 channels for a stereo pair, which would be another option is you decide to try to find a spot for a passive sub.

[turbomacncheese]

I'd recommend one good set of component speakers with external crossovers over two sets of coaxial speakers as you were thinking. For similar cost, you'll get better sound by putting your budget into one good set rather than multiple cheaper speakers. Put the woofers in the kick panels and the tweeters in the dash. In a two-seater, there's just no need for more than one stereo set of speakers and you can get a decent set of component speakers for well under $100.


This.

[Lumpyguy]

Thanks, I have a Kenwood M1824BT compact Bluetooth 4 channel amp 40W x 4 or 90W x 2 with a switch on the amp for 2 channel to 4 channel. So you are saying is do the 2channel setting and run 2 larger woofers in the doors or kick panels and have crossovers with 2 tweeters and in the dash? I did see some nice component set ups as well. Isn't the tweeter supposed to be only so far away from the speakers? the kick panel and dash top are pretty far away from each other.
This component idea seems pretty good.

[wleehendrick]

Thanks, I have a Kenwood M1824BT compact Bluetooth 4 channel amp 40W x 4 or 90W x 2 with a switch on the amp for 2 channel to 4 channel. So you are saying is do the 2channel setting and run 2 larger woofers in the doors or kick panels and have crossovers with 2 tweeters and in the dash?

Exactly! that's what I'm doing, using a small 4 channel amp, bridged to two channels. 90WPC to two good speakers will sound sooo much better than 40WPC to 4 lesser coaxial speakers; since your amp supports it, that definitely the way to go.

Most coaxial speakers have no proper crossover, they run the woofer full range and put a capacitor in series with the tweeter; this filters bass from the tweeter, but generally results in poor frequency response, especially off-axis. Some inexpensive component speakers have similar (simple cap on tweeter) crossovers. I'd avoid these and go for a set with a proper high-order crossover network with resistors and inductors. You don't have to spend a lot, and a proper crossover with well positioned drivers is more important to the sound than any advertised special material or circuit. In a component system, the speaker output from the amp goes to the crossover, which splits the signal; high frequencies go to the tweeter and low frequencies go to the woofer. The woofer and tweeter can then be positioned appropriately for the different jobs each performs.

62067


Isn't the tweeter supposed to be only so far away from the speakers? the kick panel and dash top are pretty far away from each other.

In a perfect world, yes. But cars are far from the ideal acoustic environment, and some compromise have to be made! The woofers need to be positioned where they will fit and produce decent bass response. The tweeter should be positioned to provide a good stereo image. The high frequencies from the tweeter are very directional, so a tweeter will not perform well unless it has a clear line of sight to the ears, and it should be as close to on-axis as possible. This is difficult to achieve down low on the door or a kick panel.

The lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength, and the more difficult it is for your ear to localize the sound. So you can get away with displacing the the woofers below the tweeters, and subwoofers can be put pretty much anywhere they fit and produce good bass.


This component idea seems pretty good.

Yeah, pretty much all premium factory systems and higher-end aftermarket installs utilize component speakers, rather than coaxials, for the reasons I mentioned, and the benifits are there even in a moderately priced system. I had a nice, mostly JL Audio, system in my Z (that I sold to fund the 818) with woofers in door pods and tweeters in the triangular sail panels... sounded great! My wife's 135i has the premium Harman Kardon system (well worth the extra $800 when we ordered it, ) with similar tweeter mounting and she loves it:

62068

A good goal is to be able to see your tweeters close to head on like this from your seat. I plan to put mine in the front of the dash panel, as I think that will give the best results in the 818. On top can be OK if that's your preference, as high frequencies reflect well off glass, just be sure to position/angle them appropriately.

[Lumpyguy]

This is great stuff to know, My plan was to put the speaker in the door panel maybe just below the dash or in the pocket where the door pull is (by your leg) not sure on room.
but if I do component with woofer on the door and tweeter on top of the dash do you think they might be to far apart? I was reading you can have sound issues if to far apart? not that what I have is great by any means.

[Lumpyguy]

ok so here are a few pics of where I was thinking for speaker locations, not sure I can do the lower door panel (metal door frame)


6212862129

[Harley818]

I have been working, but not posting for a while now..... to many things on the go.
I put my speakers in the door.
Polk audio 5.25 plus the polk tweeters. You can mount the tweeters on the speaker, or separate.
I decided to go separate to get the highs up higher on the door.
Lots of room for the depth of the Polk 5.25's
I also have a JL audio amp with 4 channels. two for the speakers and I will bridge one set of channels for the sub.
I mounted the sub under the dash, pointing down to the passenger feet.
I just need to find an enclosure for the sub to keep it from vibrating the dash.
Here are some pics.

62148
62149
62150

[Lumpyguy]

that looks great I like the spot where you have the speakers but I have my door pull right there so it would be behind it and probably hard to get your hand in there. I guess I could take the handle off and put on a small pull strap.

[turbomacncheese]

Looks good!

[Hot_Rod_Hooligans]

I've been thinking about something like this:
http://www.outofsightaudio.com

[fastzrex]

I've been thinking about something like this:
http://www.outofsightaudio.com


Thanks for the link.