Getting Coyote on an engine stand

[DaleG]

Coyote crate delivered last week from Forte via FRPP, complete MK IV kit arrives today. Want to get the engine on a stand. I have two: one is a really heavy duty 3-point combo stand/hoist (1/2 - 2 tons, depending on reach), the other is a conventional 4-point stand @ 1000 lbs. Plan to use the conventional stand early on for ease of moving it around. Fingers that mounting bolts go through are 4-1/8" long.

Questions:

1. Material/grade/size/thread and length of bolts to use to attach engine to stand?

2. Locations in back of engine to attach bolts to?

3. Read somewhere that there is a concern with keeping engine on a stand for too long?

4. The engine has oil in it. What happens if I rotate it in order to install the Champs (don't go there) pan. Drain oil first?

May seem like dumb questions, but at this point I have no pride, just need answers.

Cheers, Dale

[68GT500MAN]

1. I have always used bolts from the work bench for this.
3. I have never heard of this before.
4. Drain the oil.
Hope this helps,
Doug

[mentatbashar]

Dale,

Would you post some pictures of the Coyote in the crate and out of the crate? Just how large is the crate/box that it comes in?

I'm planning on using the Coyote as well but I'm curious about how much room the crate takes up since mine will have to sit for a while. :o

Edit: Good information that you shared. I didn't know that it came with oil in it already because I've never bought a crate motor before.

[tcoon]

It's big, approx 4' cube per side. I used bolts into the bell housing hole on the back side, they are metric thread, long enough to go through but not bottom out. I drained the oil prior to changing the pan...use a clean pan then put it back in when you're done.

[DaleG]

Thanks all. Got the bolts; M10 1.5.

Basher, crate base is 36" X 36", height is about 48", all wrapped in a cardboard box; in the pic, I've already removed the upper crate 2 x 4' frame.

19171

[mentatbashar]

Thanks all. Got the bolts; M10 1.5.

Basher, crate base is 36" X 36", height is about 48", all wrapped in a cardboard box; in the pic, I've already removed the upper crate 2 x 4' frame.

19171

Thank you! Now I know about how much space to carve out in the garage for it. Thanks for the picture too! :D

[Robert Andrew]

Do not leave any engine on an engine stand for more than a few days unless the crank nose or front motor mounts

are also supported. The block can and will warp, given enough time.

[edwardb]

Do not leave any engine on an engine stand for more than a few days unless the crank nose or front motor mounts are also supported. The block can and will warp, given enough time.

Please cite your sources and proof for this statement. I have to believe leaving blocks and engines on stands for extended periods (more than "a few days") is very common. Certainly is for me. I've never heard of or experienced any issues or concerns. Variables could include iron or aluminum block, with or without further parts assembled (heads, intake, etc.), temperature stored, etc. But assuming the block is properly attached with the right bolts I just can't imagine any of these would make any difference under normal conditions.

[FFinisher]

=robert andrew;125809]do not leave any engine on an engine stand for more than a few days unless the crank nose or front motor mounts

are also supported. The block can and will warp, given enough time.

huh?:confused:

in 30 years I have never once heard of this.. or ever had a problem. I have left engines on stands for many months, both aluminum and iron blocks with no issue.

[skullandbones]

I had to get some longer hardened bolts for mine. Tried to distribute the load evenly for rotation ease. Empty the oil into a clean container. If it has been dynoed with that oil, I, personally, would use new oil when you get ready to start it especially if it is going to sit for a long time. I would turn the crank periodically. That should keep the surfaces from corroding. My crate engine came without oil. As far as the warping engine block: that may apply to some exotic resin racing block or something like that but never heard of a small v8 warping. I don't install the heads or other accessories until it is taken off the stand. Just my way of doing it. Good luck, WEK.

[Robert Andrew]

I can't recall the source, at the moment, but it came from a well known performance engine builder, possibly Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins. If you apply some simple common sense, and basic understanding of materials, it's easy to understand. All materials have a yield strength, and when stressed beyond their yield point they do not return to their original shape. As an example if you clamp one end of a 12" long steel 1/4" rod in a vice the force of gravity on the arm, or lenghth extended out of the vice will not exceed the yield point of the material, but if you increase the length of the rod to 6', the rod will bend beyond the yield point and when removed, it will be permanently deformed, because the length of the arm, multiplied by the dead weight of the material will exceed the yield point of the material at the point of maximum bending moment. Now if we apply the same basic theory with the understanding that all materials have a yield point and a memory, and you hang a 400 to 800 pound engine on an engine stand, cantilevered off of four 3/8"bolts, the torsional loads on the mounting points are very significant, and I'm pretty darned confident that distortion will occur, and over time, memory set will be a factor. It may only be .0005" in a month or two, but in a year it may amount to a few thousandths, which will if fact affect performance and longevity. I think it's obvious that automotive enginees intended for engines to be supported from multiple mounting points, not hung or cantilevered from the bellhousing surface. My philosophy is to error towards the side of caution, especially when I'm dealing with a $5, 000.00 to $50,000.00 engine that has been precision machined. But it's your engine not mine, so use your own judgement.

[Robert Andrew]

At a minimum, cut a 2x4 and place it between the crank snout or front pulley and the front leg of the engine stand to support the front of the engine, when you are not working on it. Or brace it off the bottom of the oil pan. It's a five minute investment in insurance.

[Bob Cowan]

I can't recall the source, at the moment, but it came from a well known performance engine builder, possibly Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins. If you apply some simple common sense, and basic understanding of materials, it's easy to understand.

Although I'v never heard this before, it actually makes a lot of sense.

I'v always found an engine on a stand to be an annoyance. It seems to get in the way a lot. And with the CG so high up, I'm always worried about it tipping over when I move it around; even though my stand is the 4 wheeled kind.

If it was going to sit for a while, I'd use something like this, with wheels on it. Then it would be supported at the bellhousing and engine mount, just as the factory designed it to be.
http://www.menintools.com/images/cradlea.jpg

http://www.menintools.com/enginestands.html

If floor space was at a real premium, I'd stand it up on the bellhousing end, and bolt wheels to it.

[Robert Andrew]

Good points. I forgot that I was moving an engine on a stand a few years ago and the font wheel hit a small nut lying on the floor, and the engine and engine stand flipped over, and made a mess. There is generally no reason to leave and engine on a stand for an extended period any way. The lower engine carts are eay to move around, take up less space, and will sometimes fit under a work bench or shelving unit.

[mike forte]

Hi Dale,
I know Jesse changes the oil pan while hung from the engine hoist (fork lift). We then modify the Ford shipping pallet to fit the new oil pan. If you want it mobile I would purchase casters at Lowes or Home depot and mount them to the bottom of the pallet. Easy and cheap!!
Once on the pallet you can install the block plate, clutch kit, bellhousing & fork/t-o bearing and then transmission.
Call me with any questions if you need any thoughts.
Mike Forte
508 875 0016
mikeforte302@gmail.com

[Robert Andrew]

Great idea.

[dforthof]

To the origional posted question #1: I used the bolts from the bellhousing bolt kit FRPP#M-7771-A on the top two (valley) and the bottom two bolt holes (the ones with the gussets to the main) in the back of the block. It worked just fine for the brief amount of time I had it on the stand to replace the oil pan, install the headers and install the motor mounts. I have never heard of issues from leaving a an engine on a stand, but I agree that it is possible... I personally leave engines in pallets until it's time to install them, I've never had a problem leaving them on a stand for several weeks.

[chrisarella]

BTW, Northern Tool has better casters :)

[mjazzka]

With regards to the engine block bending on the engine stand...

Any deformation from sitting there for a long time is most likely due to creep, not necessarily exceeding yield strength of the metal. Creep is a deformation that can occur over long periods of time even at applied stresses that are below the yield strength. It is usually at high temperatures. I personally don't think there would be any appreciable creep in the actual block simply cantilevered on a stand, even over a long period of time. I would be more worried about the bolt hole areas and the high stress concentrations that result from the actual mount.

I agree that it is probably best to keep it supported as much as possible though, and not have it on a stand for an unreasonable amount of time.

[Riseupbears2012]

What options did you include with your engine from Forte, and what did it run you if you don't mind me asking?

[DaleG]

I got the M-6007-M50 - 5.0L Coyote crate engine, Tremec TKO 500 midshift, and all parts in between (bellhousing, clutch, etc), Moroso oil pan, engine cover, fuel pump, starter and alternator. I recall those items all being close to 12k. Also got my 8.8 3.55 fox-length rear with brakes set-up for ABS , hydroboost PS/PB system, hydraulic clutch, Vintage Air's FrontRunner Engine Drive system and lots of other goodies from Mike.

Summit Racing has packages also:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-csumffc12/overview/

[superjoe]

I got the M-6007-M50 - 5.0L Coyote crate engine, Tremec TKO 500 midshift, and all parts in between (bellhousing, clutch, etc), Moroso oil pan, engine cover, fuel pump, starter and alternator. I recall those items all being close to 12k. Also got my 8.8 3.55 fox-length rear with brakes set-up for ABS , hydroboost PS/PB system, hydraulic clutch, Vintage Air's FrontRunner Engine Drive system and lots of other goodies from Mike.

Summit Racing has packages also:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-csumffc12/overview/

Does summit racing package is a completed engine or ship to me as a kit for assembly?