Where to sign up for beta builder list?

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Can NOT wait for this car! Want to know where to sign up!!!

Pat

[David]

I agree that this is going to be one killer little car! Unfortunately I don't think they are anywhere near looking for beta testers at this point. :D

David

[mjpeters]

Either way, I'd love to get on the list to be a Beta builder.

Matt

[UpstateCobraGuy]

I agree that this is going to be one killer little car! Unfortunately I don't think they are anywhere near looking for beta testers at this point. :D

David

That's OK, I have another project to tie up the loose ends!

[agepag]

This is great news! I can't wait for more info on this car. Good work FF

[Dave Smith]

I think the "Beta" concept has been misused by others. The concept of Beta customers, as we've done in the past, are specifically to try and flush out details before product launch. Truth is that no design or car is perfect (nor will it ever be... we are on the Mk4 Roadster after 15 years!). Still Beta-builders serve of hugely important role. They have to fit serious criteria, they need to be customers who are already knowledgable in FFR cars, able to communicate well, have good skills (and be able to offer solutions), along with a host of other qualities, without which, the program doesnt work. Plus, in order to get the best, you've got to compensate beta guys for their work. I dont know if we'll use Betas in this launch as there are really new technologies coming together that we havent fully used before. My guess is we will. WHEN is the big question, and right now I just cant say.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

I wouldn't mind throwing my hat into the ring on that one........

[Dave Smith]

Shane, you are an excellent example of a perfect Beta guy (that sounds weird). Seriously you have the skills, experience, ability to communicate, etc. Also, its difficult for me because typically you have tons more super-qualified guys than you can actually hire and sometimes guys feel bad that they werent included when it was either an oversight, or there were only X number of beta cars to do. For a company of our size, and for products of our type, it is virtually impossible to manage more than say 4-8 beta builds... even at that number you get guys who dont think they were fully listened to. Its a small company so thats a valuable lesson we've learned. Still, yours is a pretty friggin-qualified hat you're tossing in there. Thanks.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[Kc_Shane]

I wouldn't mind throwing my hat into the ring on that one........

I would vote for Shane for a BETA build. He has a very good stable of FFR cars that he has built.

[VD2021]

Shane, you are an excellent example of a perfect Beta guy (that sounds weird). Seriously you have the skills, experience, ability to communicate, etc. Also, its difficult for me because typically you have tons more super-qualified guys than you can actually hire and sometimes guys feel bad that they werent included when it was either an oversight, or there were only X number of beta cars to do. For a company of our size, and for products of our type, it is virtually impossible to manage more than say 4-8 beta builds... even at that number you get guys who dont think they were fully listened to. Its a small company so thats a valuable lesson we've learned. Still, yours is a pretty friggin-qualified hat you're tossing in there. Thanks.

Dave Smith
FFR001

I second that.

More than just the current info the total estimated build cost really has me seeing this as my future next build. Removable hardtop, 1800lbs!!! Hurry with the process and force it to fall just about a month after I complete my Gen2...;)

R/s
Vidal

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Thanks for the great comments! No pressure, Dave!.....I have no expectations either way.....just thought I'd throw my name into the mix. I'm sure I'll end up building one of these at some point one way or another!.....maybe even one for myself! :D

[riptide motorsport]

Count me in.....................Steven

[Wayne Presley]

Sounds like fun!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Got my hand up!

Jeff

[Cameron Autosports]

Put me in if you need someone on the West Coast. I would love to be in on the ground floor of this one.

[bbatts]

Although not a seasoned FFR builder, I am a Aircraft Powerplant and Airframe mechanic. I have rebuilt and maintained both Private and Commercial Aircraft. I am now semi-retired and would consider it quite an honor to be considered as an experienced/inexperienced beta-builder.

B Batts
Nashville, TN




I think the "Beta" concept has been misused by others. The concept of Beta customers, as we've done in the past, are specifically to try and flush out details before product launch. Truth is that no design or car is perfect (nor will it ever be... we are on the Mk4 Roadster after 15 years!). Still Beta-builders serve of hugely important role. They have to fit serious criteria, they need to be customers who are already knowledgable in FFR cars, able to communicate well, have good skills (and be able to offer solutions), along with a host of other qualities, without which, the program doesnt work. Plus, in order to get the best, you've got to compensate beta guys for their work. I dont know if we'll use Betas in this launch as there are really new technologies coming together that we havent fully used before. My guess is we will. WHEN is the big question, and right now I just cant say.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[Niburu]

^There's a good idea;
if we team an experienced builder with an inexperienced builder we mighty gain some valuable insight.
Because of the price point of this build and the Subie drivetrain there are going to be ALOT of people interested in this who have never been interested otherwise.
I would expect to see a geat many more first time builders with this.

[Dave Smith]

I feel very strongly about a well-executed beta progeam consisting of a good cross-section of guys with varying talents and now with the Subie parts, some expertise there as well. We are focused on year-end and the design is progressing well. I'd say that if you're interested in participating in a beta program, send Jim an email or a PM on this forum... it will be a small crew and so no promises on inclusion, only whats best for the car development. When I cannot say, but if I had more resources, it would be sooner than later and I imagine 2012 is very realistic.

[Smythe]

I would also be very interested, and while I don't have any FFR building experience or any building experience really. I do have a number of qualifications that may make me a good "inexperienced' builder.
- I have a degree in mechanical and electrical engineering
- I have experience in the automotive industry
Quality engineer for an OEM at a plant
Quality engineer at OEM HQ with a focus on electronics manufacturing
- Currently I am still in the automotive industry at an OEM dealing with government regulations.
- I own a 05 Subaru WRX, although basically stock.
- I own a 96 Miata that I have rebuilt the engine and am currently (slowly) doing a complete tear down of the suspension.
- I finish my MBA in the fall '12 so I will have plenty of extra time after that.
- I brought the wife to FFR this October and she is currently on board with me taking up the rest of the garage for this.

Ill send Jim an email as well for consideration, Thanks.

[Oppenheimer]

It seems like the plan is to have people that could probably figure out how to build the thing on their own, intuitively resolve any ambiguity in the documentation, know from experience what goes where, and why, represent the Beta Builders in their entirety.

I’m not worried about those types of builders being able to figure out how to build a good 818. My concern is for the guys that don’t have as much experience.

All past FFR’s have attracted guys that have many car projects under their belt (um, older). They know what to do, more importantly, what not to do. The 818 will be different. Further, the reputation of FFR rides, not so much on the quality of their kits, but on the quality of the finished builds. Guys that buy the kit, they are already sold on FFR. Guys on the fence, and guys that never heard of FFR, they will judge based on the build quality of the 818’s they see in the wild.

So more than any past FFR, the 818 build process needs to be well sorted. The manual has to be clear, even to someone without much car project experience. Yes, there is this forum. Yes, this project isn’t for guys that don’t what a torque wrench is. But the truth is it will attract a lot of younger guys, guys with less car project experience.

I don’t have any magic solutions here. You can’t just include newbies in the Beta program, they will take too long to finish, delaying the release. Maybe more scrutiny of the manual than usual? Maybe some way to ensure buyers are directed to the forum?

[vozproto]

Oppy,

I am very much in the realm of being a newbie to building up a car. I know my way around a motorcycle and can tear it down and build it back up no problem.
But you're right, between my lack of experience and my 9-5, if I were included in the Beta testers group I would likely end up taking WAY too long and delaying the release.

Maybe reserve the Beta for those experienced people, but also have a follow-on 'early-adopter / under-experienced' group that documents their build properly along with any pit-falls or portions that need further clarification? That second group could be following the standard release.

That way you don't delay the release and have a delay to the schedule but you still provide the proper support and feedback that incites confidence in those less experienced.

[DrieStone]

I wonder what kind of time-investment the 818 is going to be? I figure that it takes me about 2.5 - 3.0x to do anything that a professional mechanic can do. I'm not really worried about the level of difficulty, but instruction and clarity is important. I really sucks when you get to step 100 and realize that the bolt you used for step 10 is too short (or too long).

I'm in the midst of getting my 2.2l Lotus motor back in my Esprit, which is by far the most ambitious thing I've ever done (and frankly a bit scary). The factory Lotus manual is... limited so there's some trial and error which always stresses me out a bit. I'd like to avoid that in building the 818. I want to feel confident that I've done everything correctly. That doesn't mean that the instructions have to be idiot proof, but just that it's easy to verify that you've accomplished the tasks as required.

[Xusia]

From my understanding FFR is pretty good about instructions. I ordered a roadster manual years ago. It was very complete and they've only gotten better. Their stated goal is for an average person with normal tools to be able to put the kit together.

I think they estimate a roadster takes like 250 hours. I haven't seen any estimates for the 818, but I recall hearing Dave say it should take less time. So maybe 200 hours? Like you, that will probably equate to 500-600 hours for me! :D

[Oppenheimer]

Maybe reserve the Beta for those experienced people, but also have a follow-on 'early-adopter / under-experienced' group that documents their build properly along with any pit-falls or portions that need further clarification? That second group could be following the standard release.

That way you don't delay the release and have a delay to the schedule but you still provide the proper support and feedback that incites confidence in those less experienced.

I like that idea. Maybe that sort of happens organically, as FFR is all about constant improvement. So maybe all that is needed is FFR eagerly seeking feedback from some of the initial builders that could fall into the 'inexperienced' camp, and follow that up with whatever changes are needed to clarify things.

So long as this is taken seriously, and a real effort is put into finding the things that can confuse and addressing them earnestly, this could work without any special 'gamma' group.

[Oppenheimer]

From my understanding FFR is pretty good about instructions. I ordered a roadster manual years ago. It was very complete and they've only gotten better. Their stated goal is for an average person with normal tools to be able to put the kit together.

Yeah, I guess I'm just concerned the 'average person' is going to be very different than past FFR kits. I would bet the average FFR customer is upper 40's, several car projects under their belt, knows their way around a garage, but more importantly, has the experience and maturity to know when they need to seek outside advice, when to stop and take extra caution. When doing something the wrong way could end up with a dangerous build.

The 818, being lower price of entry, less build intensity, Subie based, its going to attract some of the same old foggies, but also a 20-something crowd. I just think back to myself when I was that age.

[vozproto]

I like that idea. Maybe that sort of happens organically, as FFR is all about constant improvement. So maybe all that is needed is FFR eagerly seeking feedback from some of the initial builders that could fall into the 'inexperienced' camp, and follow that up with whatever changes are needed to clarify things.

So long as this is taken seriously, and a real effort is put into finding the things that can confuse and addressing them earnestly, this could work without any special 'gamma' group.

I plan on documenting and/or blogging on my build. And I am guessing that many of the inexperienced early-adopters would be willing to do the same.


I wonder what kind of time-investment the 818 is going to be?
I had the same curiosity wondering what the avg. builder time-line is like. So I started a poll here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?4364-How-long-did-you-build-take

[Xusia]

That would be awesome Voz. Are you thinking video or just pictures/text?

[vozproto]

Not a clue. My guess is pictures/text with some video here and there when necessary.

[bbatts]

I really don't have a realistic scope of work from FFR, however, I'll take a wild xxx guess. I'll plan on approx. 400 on the first one and hopefully get the next one down to 200 hours. I'm semi-retired and spend too much extra (free) time clarifying my understanding, documenting, sourcing parts and then to craft everything to almost perfection. I'm also sure there will be plenty of do-overs. This is my hobby time, so I see no reason to count "play-time" hours. My purpose will be to enjoy the journey. I'm in no big hurry to reach the destination. I'll just have to start over again.

Good luck to us all,

B Batts
Nashville, TN



From my understanding FFR is pretty good about instructions. I ordered a roadster manual years ago. It was very complete and they've only gotten better. Their stated goal is for an average person with normal tools to be able to put the kit together.

I think they estimate a roadster takes like 250 hours. I haven't seen any estimates for the 818, but I recall hearing Dave say it should take less time. So maybe 200 hours? Like you, that will probably equate to 500-600 hours for me! :D

[Grantourer]

Bbatts, that's a nice outlook you have on the journey. Reflecting back on projects of similar scale and almost always the journey is as memorable as the successful outcome.