Headlight question

[Roy]

What year, Make, and model do the headlight for the 818S come from? I want to look at some aftermarket lights.

[Mechie3]

XV30 Camry (aka 2001=2006).

[flytosail]

Is there a Hid upgrade for these?

[bbjones121]

This was discussed. There are options available as direct replacement. Most of them have those dumb halo's though.

[narkosys]

Flytosail: I had posted these (http://www.spyderauto.com/product.php?id=PRO-YD-TCAM02-DRL-BK&t=Toyota-Camry-02-06-DRL-LED-Projector-Headlights-Black) in another thread but I can't be arsed to find it so here is the link again :P They don't have halos but they do have a LED stip that I plan to use as daytime running lights.

HTH

P

[flytosail]

Flytosail: I had posted these (http://www.spyderauto.com/product.php?id=PRO-YD-TCAM02-DRL-BK&t=Toyota-Camry-02-06-DRL-LED-Projector-Headlights-Black) in another thread but I can't be arsed to find it so here is the link again :P They don't have halos but they do have a LED stip that I plan to use as daytime running lights.

HTH

P


Thanks, other idea was just to run an led strip under the center of the grill.

[bnr32jason]

I'll be doing a HID projector retrofit from The Retrofit Source. I did one for my Civic and it wasn't as difficult as I was expecting it would be.

[Turboguy]

They look nice, narkosys. bnr - these come standard with projectors in them. Would that help you?


Black version:
http://www.spyderusa.com/spy/images/700/PRO-YD-TCAM02-DRL-BK.jpg

Chrome trim version:
http://www.spyderusa.com/spy/images/700/PRO-YD-TCAM02-DRL-C.jpg


Question: I wonder how these 2 would look in comparison on a white 818. Can something like that be photo-chopped easily?

[Mechie3]

I think coming with projectors is easier to start with. The hard part (IMO) of my HID projector swaps (done the right way, not just rebased bulbs) is getting the shroud to look non hacked up. If it starts out with a shroud, 1/2 the work is done.

I think black lights look better on white. On darker cars, I prefer the chrome. 06 WRX had a smoky gray chrome as opposed to the whiter chrome on the 07's and I really liked that look.

[riptide motorsport]

those are some great looking lights

[bbjones121]

Does it say "not for HIDs" anywhere on those headlights? They would be sweet, but the projector reflector cup may not be designed for HID use.

Looks like they are probably made for the regular stock bulbs. So if you want HIDs to look good in them you would probably have to bake them and take them apart to swap the projector housing.

[Mechie3]

I wouldn't use the stock lenses/projectors anyways. They're likely meh on the performance side. A swap would be the way to go.

[longislandwrx]

I hope factory five picks a nice headlight. I'm sure a decent aftermarket with dot numbers and projectors is still cheaper than an oem unit.

[Turboguy]

Does it say "not for HIDs" anywhere on those headlights? They would be sweet, but the projector reflector cup may not be designed for HID use.


Why would HID's present an issue? The only thing that comes to mind for me is heat.


However, my understanding is that HID's draw less current than standard high wattage bulbs AND are more efficient -- so I would think that naturally means they will give off less radiant heat as well?

[bnr32jason]

I wouldn't use eBay projectors, not even with an aftermarket HID kit installed. You can tell the difference immediately between eBay projectors and high quality OEM projectors. I may buy those headlights, but I'll swap in another projector.

[PhyrraM]

Projector or not, you cannot get the same beam pattern as designed with a simple HID bulb swap. The housing needs to be either for a halogen bulb or for an HID bulb. Swapping will cause glare because projector housings are already designed for very sharp cut-offs with no margin for error.

The eBay clusters modified with proper HID projectors sounds like a good way to go. The OEM Toyotas, even the black SE version, seem kinda bland for the type of guys/gals interested in the 818.

[Turboguy]

Projector or not, you cannot get the same beam pattern as designed with a simple HID bulb swap. The housing needs to be either for a halogen bulb or for an HID bulb. Swapping will cause glare because.....


This could certainly be an issue in a situation where a housing is designed for a bulb of one physical dimension and another is installed in it's place -- but what if you found an HID kit that used HID bulbs which were designed to mimic the dimensions and light output pattern of the Halogen bulbs they are replacing?

[PhyrraM]

From what I know, that cannot happen. A halogen bulb radiates light from a line, the filament. An HID bulb radiates light from a point.

[Turboguy]

I believe that that "filament design" issue would actually make standard bulbs MORE prone to glare and scattered light issues than an HID bulb, not less.


From what you're saying it sounds like halogen bulbs naturally emit more "scattered" light than an HID bulb. Think of that halogen bulb's filament as a string of point source emissions located side-by-side.


I would think if you designed a replacement, aftermarket HID bulb "properly" -- ie to emit light from the physical center of the filament in a halogen install it's replacing-- you would have no issues at all.

[JAubin]

The thing to consider about a filament is that it sends light nearly equally in all directions along it's length...and far less efficient than an HID. This requires a very specific reflector to bounce the light generally in one direction. The ray-tracing that's done is based on this long filament, so you get a reflector with a variety of angles to direct the photons in the pattern you want. When you change the source, you're now sending light off in all kinds of different angles even if the bulbs are the same size/shape. Personally I will probably stick with what FFR provides...part of me is tempted to do something with LEDs (my day job) but there are plenty of other small projects I'd want to get just right before I look at headlight changes.

[Turboguy]

Could the emission pattern of a traditional light filament not be modeled using a series of point-source emitters in a line?

[PhyrraM]

I believe that that "filament design" issue would actually make standard bulbs MORE prone to glare and scattered light issues than an HID bulb, not less...........

That's true, it is more prone to scattering. And the reflectors and lenses can only do so much to control it. However, the overall intensity of the light at any given point is a fraction of the output of an HID. Any scattered light is then seen as dim or indirect to the oncoming vehicle.

Seeing as HIDs emit from basically a single point, any light that goes through the halogen reflectors and lenses that would have been that indirect light is now at "full brightness" and the glare to oncoming vehicles is many times as bad. Also, the 'flood' of fairly bright, indirect light can actually fool the owner into thinking his HIDs are actually working better than his halogen bulbs were when in fact it's mostly close range diffused light.

[PhyrraM]

Could the emission pattern of a traditional light filament not be modeled using a series of point-source emitters in a line?

It likely could, but the single point nature of the HID bulb makes reflector and lens design much simpler- basically simple parabolas and focusing lenses (the projector looking part).

The actual arc is only part of the light output, the energized xenon gas also radiates photons and is contained in a small globe around the arc. I don't know if the globe could be a tube, which might replicate a filament.

[JAubin]

I haven't worked with a lot of ray tracing, and none for that kind of source, but I wouldn't imagine that would be a good way of representing it. The only reason there isn't excessive glare is because the halogen reflector was designed specifically for that kind of shape.

[Mechie3]

Only graphic I could find with a 10 second GIS.

http://registry.evolutionm.net/garage/13946/images/hidfocalpt-xl.jpg

You can't make HID's properly work in Halogen housings. The parabolic shapes are all wrong. Best analogy I can come up with is using a butter knife as a screwdriver, or a screwdriver as a prybar. Sure, you can eventually get the job done, but you usually end up damaging one thing or the other in the process.

[PhyrraM]

It has to do with the fact that a filament is really radiating light in 360 degrees (in all 3 dimensions) at every point along it's length. In my head I'm picturing a long line of those "koosh" balls, with each "koosh feeler" representing a beam of light. You simply cannot account for every single path of light because they are technically from infinite sources. So you concentrate on designing around the length of the filament and catching the light radiated at close to perpendicular to the length. You block or disregard the rest because each individual 'feeler' is weak and not really aligned with others so they don't 'add' together.

An HID is more like one super-powerful koosh ball, so any of the same disregarded 'feelers' is much more powerful.

[bbjones121]

An HID kit in a halogen projector is fine, but the light will focus in the middle and not spread out like it should. My personal opinion is that it looks very bad when stopped at a light and everyone around you can see the uneven scatter at your cutoff.

[RMB]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it before, but Dash Z Racing sells several options...

Projection
http://www.dashzracing.com/Lighting-Projector-Headlights-Toyota-Camry/

Crystal
http://www.dashzracing.com/Lighting-Crystal-Headlights-Toyota-Camry/

[Xusia]

The aftermarket units above are listed as LED Projector headlights. LEDs emit light from a point. The description lists the housing as "projector." Any reason those who are so inclined couldn't just swap the LEDs for HIDs?

[JAubin]

I don't think any of those are LED projectors, just the daytime running lights, or the running light strip that runs along the bottom. An LED forward lighting system for a car is a pretty complex optical and thermal design. LEDs are around 20% efficient thermally, so they need a LOT of heat sinking for the kind of power you need for a headlight. In that application they tend to use a chip-on board arrangement that's one unit, but is multiple dies, so essentially multiple point sources. If they were indeed LEDs headlights, you'd probably want to keep them that way, way longer lifetime than HIDs.

[Turboguy]

Only graphic I could find with a 10 second GIS.

http://registry.evolutionm.net/garage/13946/images/hidfocalpt-xl.jpg

You can't make HID's properly work in Halogen housings. The parabolic shapes are all wrong. Best analogy I can come up with is using a butter knife as a screwdriver, or a screwdriver as a prybar. Sure, you can eventually get the job done, but you usually end up damaging one thing or the other in the process.

Actually, I do not believe that is a correct statement.

In the above diagram, the exact same situation we see in the second picture would happen simply by moving the halogen bulb further into the housing. In other words, it is a geometry issue NOT an HID technology issue.


This graphic actually illustrates quite clearly what I was trying to say - that 2 light sources at DIFFERENT focal lengths from the reflector will perform differently from each other. HOWEVER, say we had an HID bulb designed to emit light from the SAME relative position as the stock halogen bulb does. In that case, they should perform similarly in the same reflector. Will there be more glare from scattered and stray light? Of course there would be - just like you would get if you popped your 45W OE bulbs out, and dropped in 150W upgraded halogen bulbs.


As I understand it, the retrofit kits do not use the standard D2S or D2R bulbs that OEM HID systems use, but rather utilize HID technology in a bulb package of similar proportions to the OE halogen bulb it's replacing. IF the bulbs are properly designed, there should not be that big of an issue.


Given their design characteristics, a projector type headlight should be even less sensitive to this change in light source.

[Turboguy]

The aftermarket units above are listed as LED Projector headlights. LEDs emit light from a point. The description lists the housing as "projector." Any reason those who are so inclined couldn't just swap the LEDs for HIDs?


What I got from their description is that they are selling a projector-type headlight WITH an integrated "led" daytime running light strip.

[Mechie3]

Actually, I do not believe that is a correct statement.

In the above diagram, the exact same situation we see in the second picture would happen simply by moving the halogen bulb further into the housing. In other words, it is a geometry issue NOT an HID technology issue.


This graphic actually illustrates quite clearly what I was trying to say - that 2 light sources at DIFFERENT focal lengths from the reflector will perform differently from each other. HOWEVER, say we had an HID bulb designed to emit light from the SAME relative position as the stock halogen bulb does. In that case, they should perform similarly in the same reflector. Will there be more glare from scattered and stray light? Of course there would be - just like you would get if you popped your 45W OE bulbs out, and dropped in 150W upgraded halogen bulbs.


As I understand it, the retrofit kits do not use the standard D2S or D2R bulbs that OEM HID systems use, but rather utilize HID technology in a bulb package of similar proportions to the OE halogen bulb it's replacing. IF the bulbs are properly designed, there should not be that big of an issue.


Given their design characteristics, a projector type headlight should be even less sensitive to this change in light source.

That graphic is an oversimplification using single point light sources to make an example and I knew it would be misconstrued.

2 things happen when using halogen and HID's in combination (wrong source and projector combos). 1: The focal point locations are different, 2: the shape of the focal points are different. It's not so much a point, as an area. Due to the inherent nature of how HID's and filament bulbs are created and how they make light, the focal areas cannot be the same (different spectral power density).

Rebased bulbs remove the standard HID base (such as a DS2) and repot them using a halogen based connector that approximates the location of the focal point (area). It's close, but it's not the same. It's like cutting the top off a WRX and calling it a convertible because you can put a tarp over it.

The problem isn't if the bulbs are designed correctly, because you can't change physics and the light sources have certain inherent design characteristics that are not easily changed.

Here are two projectors from the same model of car. One is halogen, the other is the optional HID. Both are projectors, both fit in the same housing. Halogen is on the left, HID is on the right.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g127/retrofitter/DSC00213.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g127/retrofitter/DSC00220.jpg

Here are the above projectors both with a DS2 HID bulb. The top is the halogen projector with a rebased HID bulb (ie, the focal point was moved to match the focal point (not area) of the halogen for better results. The bottom is a standard DS2 bulb in the HID housing. The top image of the HID/Halogen combo shows hot spotting in the middle and dark areas to the side. Notice how close the guy is to the wall. If you were on a street looking a few hundred feet ahead, the hot spotting would be more noticeable and you'd have significant dark spots.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g127/retrofitter/DSC00234-1.jpg

[Kooldaddy]

I used several of those EBay kits in 35 watt and 50 watt, I loved them, I had them set so thee low beams would stay on with a relay. The time delay before they booted up(takes a second), was kinda scary at double didgets. But the light was very cool. Granted I had NEW aftermarket replacements but they were were not designed for HID bulbs. I liked em so much I retro-fitted both my street bikes with them, it nice to be able to see those deer eyes on a back road in Tennessee sooner, rather than later. Never hit one, damn fine luck.:cool:⚡

[matteo92065]

Bringing back old thread. The FFR headlights with standard bulbs suck. It is scary on narrow, twisty two lane roads with occasional on-coming traffic. The days are getting shorter, and I see more driving at night coming up, so I want to fix this.
I believe, there are a number of things happening that contribute to this situation.
1) The car is really low and many on-coming cars and trucks headlights will shine right into your eyes. (no fix)
2) The FFR headlights may not be throwing light out to the left and right very well. I can't see into curves/turns. (different head lights needed?)
3) The bulbs provided might not be so good? (upgrade to HID?)

Has anyone installed additional driving lights? I'd like to have a light that I could leave on without pissing off others.
I hate people that install HID kits that blind all others for reasons listed in previous posts. I have also seen HID converted cars that are very bright, but not annoying other drivers.

[07FIREBLADE]

Just do a retrofit and you will be fine. I did that in mine and I can see both sides of the sides of the road perfectly fine. Only downside is that the light bounces a lot like my bikes due to suspension of the 818. Having such a nice cutoff it's very dramatic on some roads.

[bbjones121]

Just do a retrofit and you will be fine. I did that in mine and I can see both sides of the sides of the road perfectly fine. Only downside is that the light bounces a lot like my bikes due to suspension of the 818. Having such a nice cutoff it's very dramatic on some roads.

Any installation details or guides? I have searched for awhile trying to find some for the Camry.

[matteo92065]

Just do a retrofit and you will be fine.
Retrofit of what? The bulb (brightness) or the headlight assembly(better optics and bulbs)?

For headlight assemblies I was looking at this:
46202

Anyone have any night time experience with this yet?

[bbjones121]

Retrofit of what? The bulb (brightness) or the headlight assembly(better optics and bulbs)?

For headlight assemblies I was looking at this:
46202

Anyone have any night time experience with this yet?

A true retrofit is taking apart housing. Typically done by heating up in an oven and separating. Then put in projectors designed for hids. The projectors sit inside the bowl of the current reflectors.

[matteo92065]

A true retrofit is taking apart housing. Typically done by heating up in an oven and separating. Then put in projectors designed for hids. The projectors sit inside the bowl of the current reflectors.
That does not sound like fun. How much would you actually save over just buying HID projector headlights?
I can see doing them on a car where alternatives do not exist.

[Hindsight]

Retrofit doesn't get a lot of glowing reviews because the reflector in the headlight housing is not made for the HID lamp you are putting in there. I mean, it will work and plenty of people do it but results can be poor.

See for example: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664361

If I wanted better lights, I'd probably get an aftermarket set that come complete with the full housings and are made to be HID (being careful of the source, especially if on ebay). There are a couple people here who have bought some aftermarket Camry lights but I forget who.

[bbjones121]

That does not sound like fun. How much would you actually save over just buying HID projector headlights?
I can see doing them on a car where alternatives do not exist.

You do it because you can buy some high quality projectors. Most aftermarket hid headlight assembly replacements use Chinese made poor quality projectors in them.

[07FIREBLADE]

http://www.theretrofitsource.com/complete-retrofit-kits/universal-kits/bi-xenon-morimoto-mini-stage-3-kit-h1.html#.Vg4TActVhBc

These were the ones that I put in my stock ffr headlights. I went a few different routes to begin with. First i tried the stock setup and wasn't pleased with the light output. Than I went the ebay route and the light orientation was angled and I was getting an X cutoff line. With that in mind I was going to retrofit a new set of projectors in the ebay housing because I like the look of the housing. This wasn't going to work I so returned those projectors and get the ones I linked above. The lighting is seriously night and day better. The lighting now is better than my wrx and par with my parents MB.

The retrofit isn't really that hard. You just need to take your time and everything will go smoothly. Read up on a few forums and you will get the jist of it. If your not that comfortable using the oven I would use a heat gun and work your way slowly around the light. I can have the stock headlights open in under 10mins using a heat gun.

[bbjones121]

http://www.theretrofitsource.com/complete-retrofit-kits/universal-kits/bi-xenon-morimoto-mini-stage-3-kit-h1.html#.Vg4TActVhBc

These were the ones that I put in my stock ffr headlights. I went a few different routes to begin with. First i tried the stock setup and wasn't pleased with the light output. Than I went the ebay route and the light orientation was angled and I was getting an X cutoff line. With that in mind I was going to retrofit a new set of projectors in the ebay housing because I like the look of the housing. This wasn't going to work I so returned those projectors and get the ones I linked above. The lighting is seriously night and day better. The lighting now is better than my wrx and par with my parents MB.

The retrofit isn't really that hard. You just need to take your time and everything will go smoothly. Read up on a few forums and you will get the jist of it. If your not that comfortable using the oven I would use a heat gun and work your way slowly around the light. I can have the stock headlights open in under 10mins using a heat gun.

Thanks for the link. I actually had been looking on there, but the price was a lot. I am glad you have had good luck with them, it is nice to know they are worth it before plunking down the money.

Any good photos of your headlights? How they look during the day and internal closeup? How they look at night?

[07FIREBLADE]

I can get you some photos sometime next week if you want. Im currently in a move right now and getting to the car is going to be a bit of a challenge. I've used them several times for multiple retrofits over the years.