Factory Five Is Going To Have A Problem

[Presto51]

The way I see it the 818 is going to be another "rock star" for Dave and the crew at Factory Five and by looks of the show room pictures on FB their gonna need a bigger building, a much bigger building! :rolleyes:

Keep up the great work you all are doing

Ron

[David Hodgkins]

That's the best type of problem to have!

For sure this is already their best-prepared-for launch. I can't wait for mine!

:)

[Kalstar]

I am a real estate broker local to Factory Five. In fact met Dave when he was "thinking" that was 4 years ago and 2 kits (for me) later. I agree, the current diggs are going to get real tight. There is a business saying "when your not growing your dieing". When they come out with their next kit, area growth will be inevitable.

Dave don't forget about your loyal customer Jim the Realtor. :-)

[PhyrraM]

It was said by some about two years ago that this would likely become their best seller, I still believe it. I, personally, feel that the so-far little discussed sub-$15K non-turbo 818 builds could be an unexpectedly large portion of sales.

[bil1024]

I agree, soon it will be the Factory Five Industrial park!

[Xusia]

It was said by some about two years ago that this would likely become their best seller, I still believe it. I, personally, feel that the so-far little discussed sub-$15K non-turbo 818 builds could be an unexpectedly large portion of sales.

Totally agree. Given what passes as a "sports" car in most people's mind, the NA Impreza engine will offer more than enough performance in a car this light.

My almost-16-year-old son is helping me with my donor, and is growing very interested. One of the things I've suggested to him is that when he's ready for a car, he buy a wrecked Impreza that still runs & drives off Copart. That way, he can start out with a car that's cheap and won't matter much if he dings it, or whatever. Later on (after a few years), we can use it as a donor for his own 818.

[Silvertop]

It was said by some about two years ago that this would likely become their best seller, I still believe it. I, personally, feel that the so-far little discussed sub-$15K non-turbo 818 builds could be an unexpectedly large portion of sales.

NA build discussion has in fact been relatively low to date, as you point out. I chalk that up to the fact that the car is not yet in production. Most current forum participants are rabid gear- and motorheads, and much of their focus has been all about horsepower and speed. I think that will start to change as the 818 now moves to production, and buyers begin to realize just how fast this car is going to be, even with relatively low power choices. I think you are right. Many will choose NA power. Even in stock 165 HP form, the engine will push the 818 along fast enough to frighten one's passenger. And at low cost, assuming the builder resists the urge to modify the engine (I couldn't:) ). I think there will also be a lot of buyers who choose the WRX based donor, but leave the engine virtually stock.

One thought -- I have already discovered that builders who intend to make even moderate modifications to their NA engine will quickly leave their budget build behind. I've already added most of $3K to mine in engine mods by the addition of cams and springs, EL headers, ported/polished intake, and ECU tune. All that to raise HP to maybe 200-210 at the flywheel. Would have been cheaper (with a faster result) to go with a stock turbo setup. But I'm going to have exactly what I want. And it will be PLENTY fast.

[Xusia]

I think the gearhard thing is right on - that's prob true for most of us that pre-ordered.

I also think that once FFR is able to support other power train options, the non-gearhead builders will crawl out of the woodwork because at that point, you would be able to build with a power train that suits your personal performance and/or budget goals.

[RM1SepEx]

I think even budget WRX builds will be done for below $15,000 and you can't build power more inexpensively than finding a running WRX donor with damage that doesn't concern a 818 build

[PhyrraM]

Part of my theory resides in the fact that at the FFR quoted power and performance figures there is NO ROOM FOR ANY DRIVER ERROR, or you may be dead (or wishing you were).

I have a feeling that as real builds start getting put on the road (not talking track cars here) many non-track rats buyers will figure out that a slightly slower (again, street cars) car is much more FUN to drive and grow with. Stock builds, both N/A and WRX, will mostly likely be the most popular by far. IIRC, I remember reading somewhere the same about the roadster too...the big builds get the publicity, but stock 5.0 and 4.6 builds far outnumber them.

[flynntuna]

It'll be interesting to see performance figures for a stock N/A car. If one can get 5 sec 0-60 times going N/A you'll be absolutely right. On another note it would be nice to see a final parts needed list, so we could determine if other subaru models could serve as donors for the majority of parts.

[Xusia]

Looking strictly at what I expect the performance of a NA 818 to be, it should exceed or be close to cars like the Nissan Z, BRZ/FRS, Z4, Mustang, Camero, etc. Those all cost more, and don't handle as well, making even a NA 818 a very attractive option.

Personally, I'd put a WRX based 818 on par with Corvettes, 911s, etc

[PhyrraM]

.....Personally, I'd put a WRX based 818 on par with Corvettes, 911s, etc

FFRs test mules and prototypes are already past those examples. IIRC, they have stock WRX hardware with off-the-shelf flashes. (exhaust excepted)

[D2W]

Part of my theory resides in the fact that at the FFR quoted power and performance figures there is NO ROOM FOR ANY DRIVER ERROR, or you may be dead (or wishing you were).

I agree but I'll add that most people think they are far better drivers than they actually are. Couple that with the fact that the 818 is going to attract a younger crowd overall than FFR's other offerings (more balls than brains scenario where to much is just about right). This car with stock wrx power levels is going to be easier to lose control of than most anything most drivers have ever driven. I'll wager you are going to see a lot of wrecked cars, hopefully not to many will get hurt.

[Xusia]

PhyrraM, Agreed. In my opinion, however, these will be the main comparables/benchmarks most consumers will use. I would add in (of course) the WRX and the Evo, though as you already stated, the 818 should outperform both with relative ease.

[Xusia]

I agree but I'll add that most people think they are far better drivers than they actually are. Couple that with the fact that the 818 is going to attract a younger crowd overall than FFR's other offerings (more balls than brains scenario where to much is just about right). This car with stock wrx power levels is going to be easier to lose control of than most anything most drivers have ever driven. I'll wager you are going to see a lot of wrecked cars, hopefully not to many will get hurt.

Another really good point; and one of the reasons I'm planning on the Race Logic Traction Control. Safety Fast!

[PhyrraM]

Yeah, most of the modern 'comparables' are so loaded with electronics to make them "safe enough to insure" to be able to sell them to non-millionaires. Not only traction control, but stability control, skid control, roll control, smart ABS, etc......some cars with multiple settings for each....and they all work together.

Hell, even by brothers new Focus ST has some type of smart differential working with the ABS to keep it pointed forward....and that's a FWD econobox.

Question....what was the last 'attainable by normal folks' (AKA insurable by normal folks) car to have a sub 5.5ish second 0-60 that only had ABS? I'll bet something in the mid-90s. Maybe the Corvette or Supra? A stock WRX 818 will outperform those easily.

[Silvertop]

It'll be interesting to see performance figures for a stock N/A car. If one can get 5 sec 0-60 times going N/A you'll be absolutely right. On another note it would be nice to see a final parts needed list, so we could determine if other subaru models could serve as donors for the majority of parts.

We won't really know until someone actually builds and drives one, but we can have a little fun extrapolating:

A Stock 227 HP 3100lb WRX yields about 1 horsepower for every 13 1/2 lbs. Advertised 0-60 times are typically about 5.8 seconds
A Stock 165 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower per 11.2 lbs. 0-60? -- I'm guessing maybe around 5.4 or 5.5 seconds.
A Tweaked 200 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower 9.25 lbs. 0-60? -- Maybe pretty close to 5 seconds flat. (Fast Enough For Me!!!)
A Stock 227 HP 1850lb Turbo 818 -- about 1 horsepower per 8 lbs. 0-60 -- Definitely down into the 4's. (Getting Scary)
The 265 rwhp 1900lb 818R Prototype -- Guessing at about 1 horsepower per every 6 lbs. 0-60 -- Known to be 3.8 seconds (That IS Scary!)

Apologies to the OP. We have SERIOUSLY hijacked this thread.:rolleyes:

[Xusia]

Apologies to the OP. We have SERIOUSLY hijacked this thread.:rolleyes:

I don't think so. Unless I misunderstood, this thread is about how totally AWESOME the 818 is/is going to be. I think the topics being discussed are very relevant to that.

[Silvertop]

I don't think so. Unless I misunderstood, this thread is about how totally AWESOME the 818 is/is going to be. I think the topics being discussed are very relevant to that.

Can't argue with that!:)

[PhyrraM]

......
A Stock 227 HP 3100lb WRX yields about 1 horsepower for every 13 1/2 lbs. Advertised 0-60 times are typically about 5.8 seconds
A Stock 165 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower per 11.2 lbs. 0-60? -- I'm guessing maybe around 5.4 or 5.5 seconds.
A Tweaked 200 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower 9.25 lbs. 0-60? -- Maybe pretty close to 5 seconds flat. (Fast Enough For Me!!!)
A Stock 227 HP 1850lb Turbo 818 -- about 1 horsepower per 8 lbs. 0-60 -- Definitely down into the 4's. (Getting Scary)
The 265 rwhp 1900lb 818R Prototype -- Guessing at about 1 horsepower per every 6 lbs. 0-60 -- Known to be 3.8 seconds (That IS Scary!)

To say nothing of the 350HP+ builds that some forum members are already gathering parts for. Or the 260HP/250TQ (before mods) H6 builds that many are considering.

[Kalstar]

We won't really know until someone actually builds and drives one, but we can have a little fun extrapolating:

A Stock 227 HP 3100lb WRX yields about 1 horsepower for every 13 1/2 lbs. Advertised 0-60 times are typically about 5.8 seconds
A Stock 165 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower per 11.2 lbs. 0-60? -- I'm guessing maybe around 5.4 or 5.5 seconds.
A Tweaked 200 HP 1850lb NA 818 will yield about 1 horsepower 9.25 lbs. 0-60? -- Maybe pretty close to 5 seconds flat. (Fast Enough For Me!!!)
A Stock 227 HP 1850lb Turbo 818 -- about 1 horsepower per 8 lbs. 0-60 -- Definitely down into the 4's. (Getting Scary)
The 265 rwhp 1900lb 818R Prototype -- Guessing at about 1 horsepower per every 6 lbs. 0-60 -- Known to be 3.8 seconds (That IS Scary!)

Apologies to the OP. We have SERIOUSLY hijacked this thread.:rolleyes:

My M/B is 4087 Lbs and 469hp =8.7 P/W. 0-60 is 4.2sec, quarter is 12.2sec all on 265/40/18 tires. So maybe the above numbers are light.

[Silvertop]

My M/B is 4087 Lbs and 469hp =8.7 P/W. 0-60 is 4.2sec, quarter is 12.2sec all on 265/40/18 tires. So maybe the above numbers are light.

Could be......... My projections are little more than a SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess). The point is that the 818 will be FAST no matter what level of engine mods/tune you go with:).

[shinn497]

http://www.autosnout.com/0-60-Times/0-60mph-in-less-than-5-seconds.php

hanging with the big boys.

[flynntuna]

http://www.autosnout.com/0-60-Times/0-60mph-in-less-than-5-seconds.php

hanging with the big boys.

Impressive company.

[shinn497]

18133

[Presto51]

I don't think so. Unless I misunderstood, this thread is about how totally AWESOME the 818 is/is going to be. I think the topics being discussed are very relevant to that.


Apologies to the OP. We have SERIOUSLY hijacked this thread.:rolleyes:

No apologies needed here, it's all good. Xusia your right on target on this thread for total 818 AWESOMENESS, and this is coming from a GTM fan boy. I saw the race version at Carlisle this year and was most impressed.

IMHO If Factory Five keeps going on like this, they will move out of U.S. Automotive History as a footnote, and into having their own chapter, or many chapters written by historians.

Remember this if I'm correct, all FFR customers past, present, future, we are witnessing, and becoming part of that history. That is what I call really AWESOME!

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

[papajon1000]

Yeah, most of the modern 'comparables' are so loaded with electronics to make them "safe enough to insure" to be able to sell them to non-millionaires. Not only traction control, but stability control, skid control, roll control, smart ABS, etc......some cars with multiple settings for each....and they all work together.

Hell, even by brothers new Focus ST has some type of smart differential working with the ABS to keep it pointed forward....and that's a FWD econobox.

Question....what was the last 'attainable by normal folks' (AKA insurable by normal folks) car to have a sub 5.5ish second 0-60 that only had ABS? I'll bet something in the mid-90s. Maybe the Corvette or Supra? A stock WRX 818 will outperform those easily.

What about any turbo Subaru? My 05 legacy gt only has abs and can hit 60 in less than 5.5 seconds. I should say it isn't quite stock but regardless it can still do it.

Jon

Edit: definitely not saying that my LGT could outperform an 818.

[Oppenheimer]

Question....what was the last 'attainable by normal folks' (AKA insurable by normal folks) car to have a sub 5.5ish second 0-60 that only had ABS? I'll bet something in the mid-90s. Maybe the Corvette or Supra? A stock WRX 818 will outperform those easily.

With RWD? How about 2000-2005 Honda S2000 ( '06+ have traction control).

[bbjones121]

Another really good point; and one of the reasons I'm planning on the Race Logic Traction Control. Safety Fast!

+1 to that. I have been researching the Race Logic Traction Control a lot lately. I will absolutely be putting that on mine. I have beat way too many more powerful v8's in my 2.5l 4 cylinder legacy gt because they sit there fishtailing around at a stop light. From an embarassment standpoint, traction control such as the Race Logic is a must. From a safety standpoint, having the ability to lose traction as fast as the 818 is bound to be capable of doing scares that crap out of me here in Colorado. Every road around here has some form of gravel or ice melting solution residual on it and traction is very unpredictable.

[Movieman]

I agree but I'll add that most people think they are far better drivers than they actually are. Couple that with the fact that the 818 is going to attract a younger crowd overall than FFR's other offerings (more balls than brains scenario where to much is just about right). This car with stock wrx power levels is going to be easier to lose control of than most anything most drivers have ever driven. I'll wager you are going to see a lot of wrecked cars, hopefully not to many will get hurt.

Took my first Corvettes of Mass driving school back in 1977.
I was 25 then and GOD did I think I was a great driver...until I got out on the old Bryar track in Loudon.NH
I did 3 laps and had a fitting on the turbo to exhaust pop off so had to come in.
My buddy who had raced karts for years asked if he could try it out..
FOURTEEN seconds faster than I was doing sort of told me I had a loooooong way to go!:D
BUT it turned into an open practice and I did have one hell of maybe 15 seconds duking it out with Bob Tulius in the Group 44 Jag..
Just those few seconds are memories you never forget!
Ok, back to topic..

[Racebrewer]

OT, sorry..........

I miss that track. I had about 10,000 miles on it. As I rolled off at the last race there, the bulldozers were literally rolling on to the track.

John

[BrandonDrums]

+1 to that. I have been researching the Race Logic Traction Control a lot lately. I will absolutely be putting that on mine. I have beat way too many more powerful v8's in my 2.5l 4 cylinder legacy gt because they sit there fishtailing around at a stop light. From an embarassment standpoint, traction control such as the Race Logic is a must. From a safety standpoint, having the ability to lose traction as fast as the 818 is bound to be capable of doing scares that crap out of me here in Colorado. Every road around here has some form of gravel or ice melting solution residual on it and traction is very unpredictable.

That might not be necessary. In a car as light as the 818 you can put DOT Legal racing tires on for DD duty and expect to get at least a year of use out of them. One of my close friends has an MKIII roadster with a supercharged 96 SVT cobra DOHC 4.6L making 390 at the wheels and he has nitto NT01's on it. Although it's not a daily driver, he has about 18k miles on the tires and they've been on there for over 3 years.

On top of that, the tires are so grippy that it's about like having AWD. For a street car, that's all you need. On the track, perhaps but you can just go to full slicks and be okay.

The real challenge is having all that power to weight and expecting you can use regular street tires. Before my buds MKIII was supercharged he initially put on a set of khumo Ecsta MX's which are on par with the typical max performance summer tires you'd put on corvettes etc. The car was so squirrely with just 280whp that he decided to get the nittos.

After that, the car gripped so much you could thrash it like my WRX in the twisties without worrying about spinning off the road. Even now with 380 whp, when the tires spin it stays straight, if they break loose in a corner, it's a controllable drift.

the 818 will be a much better handling car than a MKIII with a 4 link solid rear axle needless to say.

I think the 818 is going to be somewhat of a revolution and thanks to the cost, the extreme existing subaru fanbase with all of the aging WRX chassis still being flogged, the 818 will fly off the shelves. It's not Factory Five's problem, it's just going to be an issue for folks wanting to buy one for a while because I anticipate some order delay after about a year of press releases and magazine reviews that will undoubtedly cause a big rush to buy the kits.

[Mechie3]

Before my buds MKIII was supercharged he initially put on a set of khumo Ecsta MX's which are on par with the typical max performance summer tires you'd put on corvettes etc.

I've had the MX's before. They're an ok summer tire, not amazing. My stock turbo (but not stock boost) WRX could light up all 4 wheels if I launched it hard. The XS way out performed it (in the dry) and the Star Spec was just about on par with the XS. The new SSII is even better than the old SS.

Of course, all those other tires are in Tire Rack's "Extreme Summer" category, of which I wouldn't plan to put anything less on an 818. My 02 WRX currently has honkook V12's (max performance) tire and they're ok. I wasn't going to spend lots of money on extreme tires for a cheap DD when the V12's were only $180 used.